Retirement/Spouse extension - New hoops to jump through!

[Grusa]

My (farang) wife and I have been married for nearly 50 years, and living in Pattaya area for 14. We started out with two independent retirement visas, originally based on income, but we changed to deposit in the bank when that became too difficult. Three years ago we changed again, she to a retirement visa, me to a spouse visa. By pure luck, we left the 800,00 in her account, my natural inclination would have been to split it 50/50, which it turns out would not be acceptable.

At the time, Jomtien Immigration made a mistake and stamped both our passports as retirement. When we came to renew the next time, the mistake was noticed and an amendment made - with no fuss at all - before stamping the next extension. The year after that -last year - there were no issues, done and dusted in less than 20 minutes.

Today we went to extend again, the start of our 15th year here. I had all the correct papers, exactly as before, including copies of a copy of our marriage certificate stamped by the Pattaya British Honorary Consul, at a time when such existed! This document has been accepted by immigration on all previous occasions - but today, rejected. They want sight of the original certificate notarized by the British Embassy and legalized by the Department of Consular Affairs in Bangkok! 

They proceeded to issue the retirement extension to my wife, but will not renew my spouse visa until these hoops are jumped through. So far as I can tell the Embassy will no longer notarize marriage certificates, it has to be done through London by courier at enormous delay and expense, and I have only 10 days to get it done!

@UbonJoe, have you any advice or insight?

[ubonjoe]

Try to take it to higher level at Jomtien. If they accepted you marriage certificate before it should of been accepted this time.

Try to explain to them how much of a problem they are creating. I am sure they are not aware of the difficulty it is to get what they want done.

[soi3eddie]

OP, sorry to hear this. From what I am hearing, the Jomtien immigration office is totally toxic. Even a friend's recent legitimate retirement application (he had all required qualifications) was made so difficult he ended up using an agent to get it done. It seems they are deliberately difficult to push people down the agent route. I'm sure that some here will say that there's no problem with their visits but so many in this area are now using agents just to take away the stress, frustration, delays and uncertainty.

 

[Chris.B]

Not sure if this will help.... http://suwatlaw.com/

They say... Provide notarization service at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and foreign embassies in Bangkok

[ubonjoe]

23 hours ago, Chris.B said:

They say... Provide notarization service at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and foreign embassies in Bangkok

That would not help in any way. The UK embassy will not authenticate their marriage certificate.

It has to be done in the UK. 

The procedure is here.

 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714089/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Grusa said:

So far as I can tell the Embassy will no longer notarize marriage certificates, it has to be done through London by courier at enormous delay and expense, and I have only 10 days to get it done!

You are correct and will, if Jomtien stand their ground, need to subject yourself to the cumbersomely bureaucratic legalisation process as outlined in all its "glory" in the following link:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714089/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

EDIT: ubonjoe has beaten me to it!

[Grusa]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Try to take it to higher level at Jomtien. If they accepted you marriage certificate before it should of been accepted this time.

Try to explain to them how much of a problem they are creating. I am sure they are not aware of the difficulty it is to get what they want done.

Thanks Joe.

 

Here is an update. After researching matters, I phoned the Dept of Consular Affairs in Bangkok, who said they could not accept the document unless it had been; egaliawd by the Embassy or London. I phoned the Embassy, they could do nothing, send of to FCO per the online route referred to in posts above, and no way to expedite.

A visa agent was contacted, said yes it could be fixed, 15Kbaht. Offer declined

Sentiment back to immigration, explained to the lady the impossibility of what was being asked in the time frame required. She obviously did not understand that the Embassy could and would do nothing. She went and spoke to her captain, who was sympathetic. She said that in the circumstances it could be fixed for a small fee, but I would need the legalized documents next time. I suggested an extension to give me time to comply, she said yes, I could apply for a 60day extension.

I was going to do this, BUT.........., the mass of extra paperwork, queueing, etc., etc., I thought why bother, just pay - especially as the 60 days would cost me another 1900, and I would still have to fork out ££ for the FCO crappola.

So, I will get my spouse extension tomorrow. Thanks for the advice, guys.

[Maestro]

7 hours ago, Grusa said:

…She said that in the circumstances it could be fixed for a small fee, but I would need the legalized documents next time…So, I will get my spouse extension tomorrow…

How much, I wonder, was the small fee you needed to paid for this favour.

[mikeymike100]

12 hours ago, Maestro said:

How much, I wonder, was the small fee you needed to paid for this favour.

Most things in Thailand can be sorted out for a small fee!!!

[Grusa]

12 hours ago, Maestro said:

How much, I wonder, was the small fee you needed to paid for this favour.

7k. This included the 1.9k for renewal. If I had gone for 60 days, that would have been another 1.9k, so in real terms, a 3.2k bribe  gratuity.

[Delight]

Maybe slightly off topic-however- I always assumed that the spouse visa only applied when either husband or wife were Thai.

Have I got this wrong?

[peterpop]

What annoys me most when this sort of thing happens, is that the IMO smiles hugely and thinks that they are doing you a large favour.  Then it is repeat next year and you have done nothing wrong.

[Konini]

This isn't a new requirement, our marriage certificate was not accepted 4 or 5 years ago, so we went through it.  Previously you could have your embassy notorise it as a genuine document but they changed the rules (or started enforcing this rule properly).  I' sure it was 5 years ago, there was a lot of commotion about it at the time.

I had to apply to via gov.co.uk with credit card payment (£35) for a copy of the marriage certificate to be issued, complete with apostilled certificate and stamp/signature attached to the back of it.  They sent it directly to the Thai embassy in London (you put whatever delivery address you want) who notorised that the apostille was genuine and the marriage certificate acceptable and they added their stamp/signature on the back, I can't remember if I used a credit card or had to get a postal order, but I contacted the embassy by email letting them know it was on the way, can't remember, but I think I had to fill out a form which I sent them by email.  We had them send it to mam's house where it waited for us to collect.  Once back in Thailand, we had to go to the Ministery of Foreign Affairs where they took the certificate and handed it back the following day with yet another notorised stamp.  At least they only charged 200 baht for that.

From what I remember getting the marriage certificate copy from the UK government with an authorised government employee notorising with a stamp and signature on the back was the only way we could do it.  Taking a copy of it into a JP or similar would have been easier and cheaper.  There were no questions about anything so I can only assume that they were pretty used to doing it, the Thai Embassy in London certainly were.

The easiest bit of the whole thing was having it notorised by MFA in Chiang Mai.  Took us quite a while to find it, nestled away in the big goverment complex at Mae Rim, but we arrived, filled in a form and handed it over with 200 baht.  No queue, no jaded workers behind the desk; all very pleasant and we were in and out in less than five minutes.  That really was the part I wasn't looking forward to.

Only ever has to be done once, and it looks like nothing has changed Click here  for the starting point to have a copy of the certificate and apostilled in UK.  Their website says clearly that it can't be done from overseas (you can be overseas, but you have to do it through the government offices in UK). As I said, it would be 5 years since they wouldn't accept a marriage certifcate unless it had the three notorisations on the back. 

Lots of people were getting knocked back at the time because UK wasn't the only embassy who could not issue an acceptable notorisation, so maybe they cut back a bit on enforcing it, don't really know. Relatively painless process, and as I said, you only ever have to do it once.  Doesn't take too long, but I'd get a start on it as soon as you can and you'll have it ready for your extension next year.

[Grusa]

55 minutes ago, Delight said:

Maybe slightly off topic-however- I always assumed that the spouse visa only applied when either husband or wife were Thai.

Have I got this wrong?

Yes.

[DrJack54]

58 minutes ago, Delight said:

Maybe slightly off topic-however- I always assumed that the spouse visa only applied when either husband or wife were Thai.

Have I got this wrong?

The spouse can be non Thai. An example would be say the husband has an extension based on retirement then his non Thai wife could obtain her extension based on being a dependent. Also could be non Thai child. 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, Delight said:

Maybe slightly off topic-however- I always assumed that the spouse visa only applied when either husband or wife were Thai.

He actually does not have a extension based upon being the spouse of a person on a retirement extension. The correct name for it is an extension for being a member of the family of the person that has the extension. That can be a spouse or a child or their parent over 50 years old.

 

[KannikaP]

21 hours ago, Grusa said:

egaliawd by the Embassy

?????? 

[KannikaP]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That would help in any way.

.....wouldn't................

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

?????? 

Typo. He meant legalized.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

.....wouldn't................

Fixed already.

[OJAS]

22 hours ago, Grusa said:

I would need the legalized documents next time.

In these circumstances I really do wonder whether your best course of action would be to revert to retirement extensions from next time (assuming, of course, that you can meet the 65k monthly income or 800k bank balance requirement, over and above your wife's 800k). Jumping through the necessary bureaucratic hoops in order to get your marriage certificate legalised could well, in practice, prove easier said than done by even this time next year if you don't have family or friends in the UK who could handle things at that end on your behalf.

[Grusa]

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

?????? 

legalised. Bloody useless keyboard! 

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, Grusa said:

legalised. Bloody useless keyboard! 

PICNIC !       Its not the keyboard, it is more likely the operator. Read before hitting SUMBIT button.  LOL

[Grusa]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

In these circumstances I really do wonder whether your best course of action would be to revert to retirement extensions from next time (assuming, of course, that you can meet the 65k monthly income or 800k bank balance requirement, over and above your wife's 800k). Jumping through the necessary bureaucratic hoops in order to get your marriage certificate legalised could well, in practice, prove easier said than done by even this time next year if you don't have family or friends in the UK who could handle things at that end on your behalf.

Yes but I only need to do it once, I have plenty of time, and why lock up double the money we need to!

 

[DUNROAMIN]

On 3/16/2021 at 12:31 PM, soi3eddie said:

OP, sorry to hear this. From what I am hearing, the Jomtien immigration office is totally toxic. Even a friend's recent legitimate retirement application (he had all required qualifications) was made so difficult he ended up using an agent to get it done. It seems they are deliberately difficult to push people down the agent route. I'm sure that some here will say that there's no problem with their visits but so many in this area are now using agents just to take away the stress, frustration, delays and uncertainty.

 

I smell a scam running between some immigration officers and visa agents. just saying.

[lucmuyshondt1]

OP you said "3 years ago we changed again, she to a retirement visa, me to a spouse visa".  Does that mean your visa is the "dependant visa" ?

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, Grusa said:

Yes but I only need to do it once, I have plenty of time, and why lock up double the money we need to!

No need to tie up any more money with the 65k monthly income method - which is how I prove finances for my retirement extensions. This really is not as difficult in my experience as you have made out in your OP.

[thaipara]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:31 AM, soi3eddie said:

From what I am hearing, the Jomtien immigration office is totally toxic.

That is indeed my impression. A Lao friend last year got a non-O in Jomtien for being the mother of two Thai children (not married to the father). This year they say that a non-O is impossible; she has to get married (not at all easy) or do covid extensions until border runs are again possible. Or, of course, an agent is employed.

[Grusa]

15 hours ago, OJAS said:

No need to tie up any more money with the 65k monthly income method - which is how I prove finances for my retirement extensions. This really is not as difficult in my experience as you have made out in your OP.

That would depend on having an adequate secure, fixed and regular income. Ours is only adequate, the rest is not guaranteed..... if, indeed, anything is in todays' world. 

Also, if we go down the separate visas route, we need to declare double the money, any way you look at it. 

But thanks for the input.

[Grusa]

16 hours ago, lucmuyshondt1 said:

OP you said "3 years ago we changed again, she to a retirement visa, me to a spouse visa".  Does that mean your visa is the "dependant visa" ?

Yes. It was convenient at the time to do it that way, because our "visa money" was in one of her accounts. Pure chance, we could just as easily done it the other way round.