Lending money to a Thai

[jackdd]

Would it be possible to do something like ขายฟาก but with a usufruct?

You get a usufruct for 30 years for lending her the money, once she pays it back you cancel the usufruct.

In case she doesn't pay you back she can't use her land for the next 30 years, and with 80 rai and a resort for 30 years you can probably earn more than just 2 million.

Edited April 30, 2021 by jackdd

[roo860]

20 minutes ago, Johnny Mac said:

 

Been stuck here for 21 years, lost my mind and any sense of realism years back, fella. That said, I stand by what I say. if you don't think this thread lacks class in these harsh times, then let's agree to disagree.

 

I'm going out for a beer and a natter at 5.30 with a few of the local (s)expats. what are you doing tonight?

Are you asking me out on a date, if so I'll put my best party frock on, that Ok, fella?

????????????

[jayboy]

7 hours ago, RobMuir said:

I will be seeking legal advice, was hoping to get a heads up here.

 

Thankyou

Everybody is warning you.Don't do it.If you insist ,against all logic and the painful experience of many , hire a lawyer at her expense  from one of Bangkok's internationally reputed law firms, not one of those chickenxxx firms that feed on gullible farang.

 

But don't do it.The fact you are canvassing opinions on Thai Visa suggests you are not very experienced in this area.

 

Final word of advice.Don't do it.

Edited April 30, 2021 by jayboy

[TigerandDog]

SIMPLE ANSWER: DON'T LEND HER THE MONEY PERIOD.

[Johnny Mac]

17 minutes ago, roo860 said:

Are you asking me out on a date, if so I'll put my best party frock on, that Ok, fella?

????????????

Apart from the fact that I wasn't responding to your post, please don't give up your day job.

 

Must do better C-

[soi3eddie]

Bye bye 2 million baht! Either give it as a gift or don't lend. Same whether to a Thai or any other nationality. If the banks won't lend they neither would I.

 

I "lent" once to a Thai brother-in-law for his business (about 2006) but unexpectedly received repayment as a lump sum at the pre-determined date some months later. When lent, I never expected to receive it back. Looked at it as part of the wife's money too and, at the time could afford to lose it. More often than not, from what I hear, and from wife's experience previously, loans never get repaid.

 

[Gecko123]

Let's say the OP goes the kaifak route. He has this piece of paper that says he owns the property. What's the OP gonna do when the borrower refuses to turn over physical possession of the property to him? Tells him, albeit in bad faith, the contract isn't enforceable because foreigners can't have land ownership rights?

 

Are you going to go to the police? They are going to tell you this is a civil, not a criminal matter and give you absolutely no support. Are you going to physically evict her from the property, change the locks, etc.? Good luck trying to go that route. Recipe for getting beat up, or worse.

 

So you'll no doubt end up in court to decide if the contract is enforceable with you being a foreigner. That's a multi-year process, especially if it goes to appeal. Even then, let's say the courts say the contract is enforceable. The courts aren't going to send a bailiff out to the property to enforce the court's decision, and chances are the police aren't going to evict her from the property, especially with you being a foreigner.

 

Then there's the matter of what exactly does the OP think he is going to do with the property even if the courts back up his financial interest in the property. The borrower would be able to sabotage any attempts at selling the property by telling prospective buyers that the OP doesn't have the right to sell the property, or orchestrating low ball bids on the property. You don't think a foreigner claiming he has the right to sell property even though it's registered under someone else's name is going to make some prospective buyers, not to mention the staff down at the land office very nervous?

 

I would say just as a matter of principle, in a country where foreign ownership of land is against the law, the loaning of money with land as collateral by foreigners is very ill-advised.

 

In my opinion, the OP's chances of finding a lawyer who is fully knowledgeable about the implications of a foreigner trying to secure a loan by using land as a collateral are practically nil. Ask your prospective attorney to present you with an actual case from his files or through legal research which shows what the outcome of a dispute over whether a kaifak agreement with a foreigner is enforceable or not. I'll bet the OP anything that his lawyer cannot do this. For this reason alone, I would proceed with extreme caution, i.e., back out of the verbal commitment he apparently has already entered into.

 

I also don't understand how the OP can at all be confident about assessing the borrower's ability to repay the loan. There is poor visibility about how quickly Thai tourism is going to bounce back, and I doubt there are ways to get a totally reliable overview of her present financial condition (i.e., informal loans, etc.)

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Gecko123

[Nanaplaza666]

8 hours ago, RobMuir said:

Thankyou for your intelligent, informed reply.

 

Yes I was aware of the extra expense for her which is why she wants jumnong over kaifaag. Her smaller resort is on a few different chanotes.

 

I could take one for say worth 10 million that includes the private road to her resort valued at say 10 million, which would reduce her taxes but still secure my loan.

 

I am pretty sure I won't be jumronging it. And will go for the fool proof kaifaag way.

 

Up to me.

If "Up to you " why are you asking other people for information .

[thasoss]

7 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I have loaned money to Thais up to 200,000 b.  Always gotten it back.

Never loan out more then you can afford to lose.

Amen.

[sead]

Please. Don't. Why? 

Is your life really that boring that you need all the drama that comes with lending out money to people. Clearly her resort isn't going as it should. And 2million isn't going to save her resort for sure. Just don't. You have nothing to prove to noone

[Hayduke]

Lending Money to a Thai

 

You’ve been offered some good advice. However it seems you only want to hear what you want to hear. You might consider rephrasing your original post to specify that only ‘those who agree with you’ need reply.

 

You seem determined to demonstrate that your plan is valid, well thought out, and incontestably brilliant. While suggesting those who find fault with your proposal are rank amateurs who are incapable of understanding your sophisticated financial wizardry.  

 

Oddly enough you seem irrationally determined to proceed with your questionable plan….in spite of intelligent, experienced and reasoned arguments to the contrary.

 

If you truly believe you’re the smartest person in the room….....then here’s no need to solicit opinions. Just go for it.

 

But don't hold your breath on ever seeing your money again

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Hayduke

[Aussiepeter]

Been a while since I posted anything on tv, but as an Aussie of UK heritage I've really enjoyed the niggling between the obviously UK & Oz expats offering advice on this post, especially as I am 5000 miles away in Australia & Friday nights are boring, usually. My advice would be "never lend to anyone in LOS" but, that is just me. Like most others, I can see this going very badly for the op and, I lived in LOS for nearly 30 years. Like others on here, I too lent money I could afford to lose to a Thai (once only) back in 2001. The difference was (and I bet I get a bite from our mutual mate Mr NCC from Hua Hin) I lent 12K baht to a Thai lady aged about forty whose pants I was then trying to get into ! She was a divorcee and stunning, but I was told by Thais that she was "innocent about men" and I had no hope of even getting a date. Anyway, I asked her out for lunch & she told me to pick her up at the C Mai Customs Office which I thought odd, as she was supposedly unemployed. After lunch she hit me up for a "loan" for a new radiator and four tyres for her "borrowed" car. Never got as much as a kiss on the cheek & never saw her, or my 12K baht, ever again. I found out later my "innocent lady" was the Mia Noi of a big shot in the Customs Office in C Mai and he'd got her a casual job, as she was not a government employee. Worse still, I'd just fixed his damn car ! I put it down to 'swings & roundabouts' as I'd had the odd freebie in LOS over the years, from other Thai lasses. 

[Gecko123]

@Aussiepeter Very touching and sweet story. Thanks.

[BTB1977]

The thought that he is even thinking about giving away 2 million baht is mind blowing. 

Yes I know he said lend. But lend in thai means give, as in a gift. And nothing to secure the loan that you can really own. Maybe if she signed over a 3 million baht Mercedes in your name than no problem.  

[Aomelia]

9 hours ago, Ian3005 said:

From my experience I would not give the loan as the chances of repayment is slim.

That is unless it is done legally and you have some form of security.

I don’t think he wants to be paid back he wants a Default lol

[IraqRon]

I have a farange friend whom lost a lot of money by the Jumrong scheme.  The woman just went to her local land office and got a duplicate chanote and sold the house and land which was resold further on before he found out.  He spent lots of money and court time and got a finding against her, but of course she was unable to pay and he got nothing.

Seems she had a local reputation for swindeling farangs in this manner.

Even wonder why there are no title insurance companies in Thailand????

[rumak]

7 hours ago, Whale said:

Its threads like this that make you wonder if it's ever worth asking a question on this forum. I bet half the repliers only read the title or the first paragraph. 

 

Many readers of this forum have become jaded by the endless "my gf is different"   or "my gf did me wrong"  stories .  Even i occasionally offer a cynical response .

That does not mean that every thread involving a money transaction is to be thrashed,

but TV is famous for "experts"  that know very little.

This thread is, at least,  an interesting diversion from the basically 2 themes that permeate every page .   So,  for my contribution i will openly admit :   I don't have any experience with this subject.     But,  interesting ...............

[Stevemercer]

I think the OP is entitled to proceed if he can sort the details.

 

It's a funny thing though when you loan money even if it seems fully secured. Now you own the lady's problems and anxiety about the timing for the sale of her main property. Now you are just another creditor waiting in line and I doubt she will give you (or will be able to give you) any special priority.

 

But now you have brought into her problems. Even if you can afford any possible financial loss, it will nevertheless be on you mind until the situation is resolved.

 

If she can't sell her main property, and you take the resort, maybe you will feel guilty about taking her land worth 80 million for 2 million. Maybe she will fight and drag out a court battle for years. If the land has been in the family for 20 years she will hardly want to give it away.

 

I'm just saying that, setting aside the financial aspects, it's worth thinking about how this will affect your existing relationship with her, as well as your own peace of mind.

 

It's a funny thing lending money. So often the person getting your money doesn't seem to feel any additional responsibility to you. You, on the other hand, have to suck up to that person (in the hopes of getting your money back or coming to an amicable settlement), worry about their financial problems/excuses, and maybe stress about the money.

 

Are you prepared to add another possible complication or stress to your life here in Thailand?

 

If you can afford it, and you are convinced she is genuine, just give the money to her in the expectation/hope she will do the right thing by you when her ship comes in. That way you don't have to worry about it and she may feel an obligation to you and your family.

[digger70]

Lending Money to a Thai 

 

Don't

[natway09]

At least if you are going to do it , do it through her bank & go surety on a 2nd mortgage,

that way if the bank reposes the property you are 2nd in line after the bank.

If someone else has done that already at least the bank will tell you at which time you can run away.

If you can tell me the assett for sale & location I may be able to help & no, I am

not a real estate agent 

[RocketDog]

9 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

You seem to be laboring under the misperception that there is a reliable legal and civil law-enforcement infrastructure in place to enforce your rights in the event of default. There isn't. Going to court can take years, and even if you win a judgement, there will almost certainly be no help available to enforce the verdict. Your ability to enforce any financial interest you have in land will be severely undermined, if not crippled, by Thailand's land laws which prohibit ownership in land by foreigners. There is a very high probability that you have been approached for a loan largely because you are naively unaware of these realities.

I applaud you Gecko. 

 

The OP wanted advice based on experience. 

I think you just did that in a concise and clear manner that nonetheless literally reeks of experience, personal or otherwise. 

 

Moreover, it has the inescapably visceral ring of real-world truth to it. 

Your last sentence alone should give the OP pause for deep thought unburdened by emotion. 

 

You get my vote for the best reply I've read so far. At this point nearly every reply has urged caution to some degree or another. 

 

That OP, is your answer clearly writ. As you say: Up to you. 

Good luck. 

[RichardColeman]

10 hours ago, RobMuir said:

Lending against her bigger resort isn't an option as a bank already has that mortgaged.

And if she does not pay that they will come after her other resort, and I am pretty sure the Thai bank will come before you in any claims court.

 

Fact she is up to her armpits in debt with the other resort should surely be a huge warning sign. I imagine the money you are paying is repayment to the bank of money she has already defaulted on.

 

And before you start, remember Thailand is still ridden with covid, chances are that Thailand will not open for another year (or plan for it anyway) and then not at full capacity. 

 

You are wanting to lend money to a business that is about to go bust with no assets claimable by you

[Grusa]

7 hours ago, The Man Who Sold the World said:

Rob Muir:

First - you are are speaking in the English Language about Thai Real Estate as a collateral concerning money (financial) instruments. You, as far as your name identifies are a foreign citizen. 

 

Thai law is written in the Thai language, interpreted and administered by Thai Judges, advocated in a Thai court of law by Thai Attorneys. Only they, Thai Attorneys can offer you an opinion concerning how to protect yourself.

 

Any information you receive from a website is hear say at best.

 

Consult with several Thai attorneys on how to protect yourself. Consult with a few and compare their answers before you select the Thai attorney who will protect you to the best of their ability. Continue to do your due diligence.

 

Good luck, both to you and the recipient of your funds. 

And bear in mind that the overriding consideration of nearly all lawyers, especially Thai ones, is their own rice bowl and the expeditious filling thereof. Preferably, bit not exclusively, at the expense of a foreigner.

[JWRC]

10 hours ago, RobMuir said:

Thankyou for your intelligent, informed reply.

 

Yes I was aware of the extra expense for her which is why she wants jumnong over kaifaag. Her smaller resort is on a few different chanotes.

 

I could take one for say worth 10 million that includes the private road to her resort valued at say 10 million, which would reduce her taxes but still secure my loan.

 

I am pretty sure I won't be jumronging it. And will go for the fool proof kaifaag way.

 

Up to me.

The last three words say it all and makes me wonder why you are on here at all when all you need is a lawyer to advise and explain everything clearly.

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

If the banks won't lend they neither would I.

This pretty much sums it up for me.  What bank wouldn’t be tripping over itself to make a 10% LTV loan on an unencumbered resort/piece of land (if said resort is really worth 10x the loan?  Perhaps the debtor knows that it would be much easier for the bank to foreclose and subsequently repossess the land than a foreigner would be.

[HighPriority]

I haven’t read any of the thread, but I think anyone who contemplates drinking beer that’s not on ice is a fool and deserves everything they get in the LOS.

 

????

[Bundooman]

10 hours ago, RobMuir said:

So you have no knowledge of jumnong or Kai faag.

Thankyou for that contribution.

It is clear that you are totally blinded to any common-sense advice.

You know best. you know jumnong & Kaifaang.

So be it.

Don't ask people's opinion unless you really want to know what they think or advise.

My advice? Walk away.

Otherwise - do what you want! go ahead. It's your 2 Million.

you're the man!

Up to you......

[Danderman123]

9 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Assume a bank already has first lien on the land.

You'll get nothing.

Some variation of this is the most likely scenario. AFAIK, there is not much of a title search system here, the Land Office can only do so much.

 

Not to mention any claims on the land that are not registered through the Land Office, but have other means of enforcement.

 

You don't want to be involved in this.

 

[SOTIRIOS]

...one would guess that you are thinking with something other than your brain...

 

....that said....being gallant...in Thailand...is equated to being gullible...to be polite about it...

 

... being wise...or astute...???...involving your partner is no security whatsoever...

 

...even paying lawyers to represent your interests...ask how many have done so before you...

 

...and what they ended up with...

 

...makes no sense whatsoever...

 

 

[damen]

You can borrow her at your comfortable amount, however you must have a mindset that he/she may not return you back. 
 

In my own experience, you can do a legal iou and been certified by officials such as some police from the station or lawyers. 
 

and Maximum Interest is 15% per year. Interestshall not exceed 15% per year; when a higher rate of interest is fixed by the contract, it shall be reduced to 15% per year.

 

this is the legal rate in Thailand. He/she could report you to police if the interest deem too much.

 

And remember to have a witness, video cam as a prove.