Digital nomads to be allowed to work in Thailand without needing a work permit

[MrJerome]

Delusional and ignorant. Hardly a surpise....

[NanLaew]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:56 AM, ThailandRyan said:

Most digital nomads I know are either high-school or college dropouts who are self taught coders and system builders. They started out making their own computers, designing games and web pages.  So none of them would qualify even though they make more than the needed income stream.

 

That should be, "So none of them would qualify even though they claim they make more than the needed income stream."

 

Proof of income's a bitch whichever way you skin that cat.

[Pracha Duang]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:56 AM, ThailandRyan said:

Most digital nomads I know are either high-school or college dropouts who are self taught coders and system builders. They started out making their own computers, designing games and web pages.  So none of them would qualify even though they make more than the needed income stream.

Incorrect. I’ve worked for Google remotely from Phuket for over 4 years. I make over 7 figures USD / year from salary alone, not including equity, and the multiple side businesses I run in Thailand. I have hundreds of software engineering friends that would kill to work remotely from Phuket that are earning mid 6-7 figs USD. Google actually has a secret HQ in Phuket that only a few people know about it. And both Google and Facebook are in talks with the government to open large offices in Phuket which would completely transform the landscape of the island and turn it into a tech hub rather than a tourist hub. I’m 90% certain Facebook will open an office in Phuket in 2023. Its about attracting global engineering talent while keeping wages low. Phuket is perfectly centralized where you can attract talent from all over Asia.

[JesseHumphry]

I have to say, this proves how obscenely clueless these people in charge are. 

If you find a real digital nomad with a Master's Degree, I'll show you 30 that just learned how to program on Udemy without the debt and degree. If I made $80k a year, Thailand would certainly not be my destination.

The whole point of digital nomads being in Thailand is that the US dollar goes really far here; if you make that harder, if you set unreasonable requirements, you will lose money. Thailand has neighbors that are much less fussy about this stuff.

Stop shooting yourselves in the foot and for God's sake, wake up.

[Stubby]

19 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. But on a serious note, $40-80k per year isn't exactly knocking it out of the park.

I thought you might have been but couldn't resist responding. 
 

The better-off would up sh*t creek without a paddle if the poor sods who get paid from the neck down didn't exist. These are the folks who clean filthy toilets, deliver shopping in all weathers, wash cars, etc. 
 

It's heartbreaking. There are millions of people who never get a break because of their circumstances.
 

Heck, imagine a world without low-income earners...  
 

"I DIDN'T GO TO UNIVERSITY TO CLEAN TOILETS, AND I WON'T DO THIS... AND I WON'T DO THAT... YADA YADA YADA!"
 

And many of the so-called "successful" digital nomads are bottom feeders. They demand high-quality work at the lowest rates
possible, while exploiting those who are desperate... just because they can. They're the real riffraff of society.
 

Rant over!
 

Stubby

[Puccini]

3 hours ago, Pracha Duang said:

...Google actually has a secret HQ in Phuket that only a few people know about it...

It is no longer a secret now. Has your Google boss approved your divulgence?

[Steffan]

Heading says no visa needed than article says to qualify for a visa. Bull dust if you ask me. Must be a slow news day.

[thailandusauk]

So funny here that some people think that digital nomad pay tax...

you really know nothing and seem proud of yourself ! hahahaha

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

[quote]

...Graduates are invariably clueless pr!cks and their qualifications serve only to inflate their sense of entitlement over those with better experience.

[/quote]

 

Lol, the usual comments from those who don't have a degree ????

 

Yet you offer no comment to discredit, because I'm right aren't I {rhet}. . . and It's happened to me, one of the reasons I started working for myself, sidlelined out of a job by some graduate ten years younger who climbed past me on account of his paper qualifications. Later the phone rings from the same company asking for help, I hang up. . .

 

.. . because I'm right, aren't I. Experience trumps youth with paper.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[gearbox]

"I believe I could take anyone of average intelligence and a high school education (so, basic literacy and numeracy) and, if they are willing to focus for 8 hours per day, six days per week, get them to at least $100 per day within a month. Young, old, it doesn't matter."

 

"I have hundreds of software engineering friends that would kill to work remotely from Phuket that are earning mid 6-7 figs USD. Google actually has a secret HQ in Phuket that only a few people know about it."

 

This thread is just getting better and better...keep on going gents and ladies!

[LivinLOS]

10 hours ago, Karma80 said:

 

Illegal complete tax avoidance is not easy nowadays. It will catch up and bite you in the ass. Until then you're looking over your shoulder in an increasingly digitally matched system. Smart people use low tax strategies.

Thailand offering 0% tax on offshore income and 17% in country is compelling because you will be a legit tax resident. Sure, it's no Dubai, but you don't have to live in a mall stuck in a desert and have a lower cost of living.

Very much agree with this, simply avoiding and non declaring is getting harder and as I said in a previous post, revenue systems look to me to be starting to look at the corporations who engage workers to ensure compliance downstream. As it used to be easy to simply use a offshore shell corp, now anyone paying some PO Box Seychelles company from an EU corporation is just begging for an audit, so they take much greater care, I suspect that contractor compliance and due diligence is going to enter this sector as a push from domestic revenue operations.  As informed posters are saying, many many sectors of work are become more fluid and location independence is growing, but as it becomes a more significant section of the workforce so governments will look at ways of ensuring revenue still gets collected. There is actually a lot of need for good structured advice and solutions in the sector coming up over the next decade. 

Yes there will always be the evaders, who break laws, but the smart ones will be the avoiders, and those who engage tax mitigation rather than outright non declaration or fraud. 

 

[josephbloggs]

On 6/7/2021 at 11:11 AM, Pattaya Spotter said:

The TAT (Tourism Authority of Thailand) is making visa and work permit  policy now...me thinks the Foreign Ministry, Interior Ministry (Immigration), and the Labour Department will have something to say about this.

Try reading the article.  The TAT is not making policy but it coming up with ideas to boost international visitors on a long term basis and therefore benefit the country.  It is a proposal from them which has been presented to the Prime Minister.
 

The headline is typical TVF clickbait as it doesn't mention it is a proposal.  However it has done its job of getting the TVF populace clicking and replying based on a headline alone.

[Poet]

12 hours ago, The Cipher said:

My intention is to start a business selling a niche product online.

Best of luck with that.
 

12 hours ago, The Cipher said:

I've already got a fairly demanding, but well comped job (Associate at a PE firm) that is currently letting me work remotely for part of the year.

Your existing experience already puts you well ahead of most of the people working online. You will be able to rapidly add new skills to that existing framework. Just try to keep your momentum going when you do decide to transition to being your own boss.
 

12 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Do you have any recommendations for the fastest way, or best educational materials, to become competent at that stuff? Would save me time stumbling around in the dark.

Join a forum, subreddit, or Facebook group focused on your area of interest. Make sure that it is independent, not controlled (officially or unofficially) by a company that sells into that niche. Absorb as much information as you can, even reading possibly irrelevant threads, to pick up a sense of what tools and educational sources are genuinely respected.

Never get conned into believing that paying $495 for some hyped-up course is going to be a shortcut. Remember that almost all guides or video courses are available, somewhere, for free. The majority of expensive courses are not even worth watching for free.

On most forums, people are incredibly generous, freely sharing decades of experience. Be wary, however, of forums that are heavily moderated. Emotionally damaged moderators, with very little knowledge or ability of their own, often chase away good contributors and ruin otherwise useful forums.

 

[Albert Zweistein]

15 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Disagree.. And in the very near future (if not already) corporate compliance is going to be asking questions also. Its not quite there but this last year has seen a raised awareness in the risks for corporation in location independent staff. Theres tax risks to having free roaming staff where countries can declare a fictitious permanent establishment (in simple terms a branch office, minus the office) which creates a corporate liability to present accounts and potentially create a tax liability. 

A lot of this law is not well established or tested yet, but EU governments in high tax countries (Scandinavia, Benelux etc) are starting to see the holes in these systems and becoming much more aggressive.  I believe that corp compliance will start demanding proof of good standing and residential clearances etc as a method of protecting themselves. Its a part of the payrolling market I am trying to position one of my companies for. 

Of course there will always be ways of gaming it, of having an offshore or hong kong style zero tax shield, but will the contract givers accept those risks ?? In SME world probably yes for years to come, in fortune 500 ?? Less so. 

Seems you are not familiar to the digital nomad world.

[Stargeezr]

I thought that those hackers that ask for a ransom, by using their ransomware, were digital nomads.  Silly

me, they are only digital terrorists, and should be shot on sight.

Geezer

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Seems you are not familiar to the digital nomad world.

I am very familiar with it.. I personally have been location independent since the first laptops and modems early 90s.. When I came to Thailand in late 90s I paid more for shin corps 2 way satellite broadband (remember that !!) than I did rent.. I now run a company with entirely location distributed management and pre covid had 80 plus cross border workers. My specialism is cross border labour supply and taxation so all these parts overlap. 
 

Seems your not very familiar with the taxation and compliance pressures that are being applied to the larger corporations who pay location independent workers.. Theres a lot of rapid change coming to that world, in part from COVID work from anywhere policies making all of this suddenly relevant. 

Of course my comments were based more for online professionals and freelancers than those trying to squeeze some pennies out of blogging, drop shipping, etc etc.. To be honest those are the ones I see here who fit the stereotype of no money, just learning, caught in the whole 'nomad brand' thing. 

[off road pat]

As usual the Thai government has absolutely no clue about what digital nomad's are !!!

They are so diverse as birds in the sky and are not following any rules,...Some are working a couple of weeks, others some months,...but most could do with a tourist visa ! and some even have a marriage visa, very easy to stay low profile under the radar, so !?!? how to get money from them ???? 

[andux]

4 hours ago, off road pat said:

As usual the Thai government has absolutely no clue about what digital nomad's are !!!

They are so diverse as birds in the sky and are not following any rules,...Some are working a couple of weeks, others some months,...but most could do with a tourist visa ! and some even have a marriage visa, very easy to stay low profile under the radar, so !?!? how to get money from them ???? 

 

It would be very easy to do: just make a worldwide income tax. Thailand taxes foreign income but only if brought into Thailand the year it was earned.

 

Worldwide income tax is how most countries solved the issue of independent location, around 70 years ago?

 

Just to give you an example, a "digital nomad" who is in Spain for more than 6 months in a given year has to pay tax there on their worldwide income, whether they bring that income to Spain or not is totally irrelevant. Their visa status, whether they have a Master's degree or married a girl from the Andalusian countryside are also irrelevant...

 

Thailand has this weird way of mixing visas and permits with taxation regimes, and also that special way of taxing foreign income that they clearly don't want to remove. All 'solutions' are always just more bureaucracy and red tape nonsense, but one thing never changes: foreign income remains untaxed.

[james2m]

IIRC since the presentation to Prayut the ‘Digital Nomad’ requirements have increased to ‘work for a large financial institution or publicly listed company’,    having been a Digital Nomad for years, and previously started several coworking spaces I can’t recall ever meeting any Nomad who meets these requirements. A few maybe with degrees and possibly the odd PHD but not a single one would have equated Nomad with Corporate Drone.

[Hanuman2547]

An English friend of mine has a wife (farang) who works at a very well known International school in Bangkok.  He is able to stay here based upon his wife's visa status.  This has worked out very well for them over the past 23 years.  During this time he has been working remotely for his employer who is based in London.  I don't think that he will be jumping on this possible new visa if it does in fact become available.  

[Albert Zweistein]

18 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I am very familiar with it.. I personally have been location independent since the first laptops and modems early 90s.. When I came to Thailand in late 90s I paid more for shin corps 2 way satellite broadband (remember that !!) than I did rent.. I now run a company with entirely location distributed management and pre covid had 80 plus cross border workers. My specialism is cross border labour supply and taxation so all these parts overlap. 
 

Seems your not very familiar with the taxation and compliance pressures that are being applied to the larger corporations who pay location independent workers.. Theres a lot of rapid change coming to that world, in part from COVID work from anywhere policies making all of this suddenly relevant. 

Of course my comments were based more for online professionals and freelancers than those trying to squeeze some pennies out of blogging, drop shipping, etc etc.. To be honest those are the ones I see here who fit the stereotype of no money, just learning, caught in the whole 'nomad brand' thing. 

Appreciate your explanation but we differ on the meaning of the word "nomad" . The DN's I know and have met in the past (No I am not one of them) were moving from country to country, in the European summer Portugal, Spain and Greece and in the winter Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia. Moving from one country to another on a tourist visa, making their living on intraday trading in shares, Fte's and cripto currencies. Some were building a website every now and then for a private client. Paying taxes ? No way. All of this in the proper meaning of the word "nomad".

The persons you describe above I would rather call them remote workers but it all depends on the way one looks at it.

[LivinLOS]

5 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Appreciate your explanation but we differ on the meaning of the word "nomad" . The DN's I know and have met in the past (No I am not one of them) were moving from country to country, in the European summer Portugal, Spain and Greece and in the winter Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia. Moving from one country to another on a tourist visa, making their living on intraday trading in shares, Fte's and cripto currencies. Some were building a website every now and then for a private client. Paying taxes ? No way. All of this in the proper meaning of the word "nomad".

The persons you describe above I would rather call them remote workers but it all depends on the way one looks at it.

Yes thats a section of nomads.. But they come in a wide stripe.. More and more especially since COVID are location independent employees of existing business or freelancers to a corporate world who are discovering work from home policies, a lack of commute, etc very appealing. These work from home workers, distributed teams, earning upper middle class western incomes, these are the people this visa class is pitching to and I think offers a lot of perks.  

In fact I think these are the more stable and 'real' of the location independent world, and the type you describe fall into the more often mocked 'wannabe' nomad crowd who are more just gap year backpackers / extended travelers but calling themselves a nomad and pretending they are trading genius's is more fulfilling for the ego than admitting they are not at break even and will be calling family for the flight home money or gofundme for the first scooter accident. Not all, theres always outliers especially in the influencer social marketing side, but for the majority the 'backpacker with a smartphone' slur fits that group more appropriately. If you look, those ones likely are the ones who will say this visa is useless and doesnt appeal to them, and looking from the other side, perhaps it purposefully doesnt appeal to them !! 

Real online workers make real money.. I was paying mid 200k EUR per annum each to 2 twenty something lead gen marketing guys pre covid. You cant easily hide that on the books, it needs a paper trail to a person or corporation and that corp cant be a Seychelles / Bahama / Vanuatu type shelf co any more (and the banking options for these shelf companies has become extremely challenging) unless you want an audit that hurts !! This is why Estonia is jumping in with the 10% turnover taxation model which is EU compatible. 

As I said above when you have location independent workers on your books they can actually create huge tax headaches and liability, or at least accounting liability, simply by them remaining in one place too long. Western revenue services are seeing these trends and I can already see and hear compliance strategy forming from high taxation countries. I am not pretending that every loophole is going to close immediately, but I will lay bets that most developed countries will be linking payments and demanding citizens prove a new tax base, with returns and tax receipts, before releasing citizens from domestic obligations (you already see this in Scandinavian and Benelux countries) the EU banking directives mean all those transferwise and revolut (and Andorran, Luxembourg and even Swiss banks !!) report all turnover back to the country of registration where the KYC was performed for. Google (hence youtube and other ad driven platforms) know where you are, they know where your bank is, if western revenue wants to lean on google for those payment records google will comply as it doesnt effect them only you !! Etc etc. 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by LivinLOS

[bkk_mike]

When I was a contractor (i.e. self-employed), I was able to work remotely from Thailand (Thai wife, so I have no visa issues).

 

Initially I did two weeks in Thailand, two weeks in London (as 183 days of the year out of the country was enough to get outside of a UK tax rule called IR35) for over a year, paying my own flights (classed as a business expense, but essentially it was more than covered by the savings from being deemed outside IR35 even though I was still paying UK tax - as I was making low 6 figures at the time - in pounds, not baht...).

And that was 20 years ago. They cut my rate in 2002, but as part of that deal, I stopped having to do 2 weeks a month in London - so I was actually no worse off as the cut was offset by the savings in flights...

 

Now I'm an employee and the multinational company I work for won't let me work from Thailand because HR care about the work permit side of things, even if I have no visa issues.

 

Anything that simplifies that for an employee where the employer is a multinational where HR want to follow the rules will be good for people like me - and if it's 17% tax in Thailand rather than the significantly higher amount I currently pay in the UK - I'm all for it - we still have multiple properties in Thailand that I could work from - I even have fibre to the home at our house in Bangkok - which I still can't get in London...

[kynikoi]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:53 AM, webfact said:

at least $80,000 per year for the past 2 years or $40,000 per year with a master’s degree or above/intellectual property ownership or have received Series A funding.

 

Hilarity ensued...

[Albert Zweistein]

19 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Yes thats a section of nomads.. But they come in a wide stripe.. More and more especially since COVID are location independent employees of existing business or freelancers to a corporate world who are discovering work from home policies, a lack of commute, etc very appealing. These work from home workers, distributed teams, earning upper middle class western incomes, these are the people this visa class is pitching to and I think offers a lot of perks.  

In fact I think these are the more stable and 'real' of the location independent world, and the type you describe fall into the more often mocked 'wannabe' nomad crowd who are more just gap year backpackers / extended travelers but calling themselves a nomad and pretending they are trading genius's is more fulfilling for the ego than admitting they are not at break even and will be calling family for the flight home money or gofundme for the first scooter accident. Not all, theres always outliers especially in the influencer social marketing side, but for the majority the 'backpacker with a smartphone' slur fits that group more appropriately. If you look, those ones likely are the ones who will say this visa is useless and doesnt appeal to them, and looking from the other side, perhaps it purposefully doesnt appeal to them !! 

Real online workers make real money.. I was paying mid 200k EUR per annum each to 2 twenty something lead gen marketing guys pre covid. You cant easily hide that on the books, it needs a paper trail to a person or corporation and that corp cant be a Seychelles / Bahama / Vanuatu type shelf co any more (and the banking options for these shelf companies has become extremely challenging) unless you want an audit that hurts !! This is why Estonia is jumping in with the 10% turnover taxation model which is EU compatible. 

As I said above when you have location independent workers on your books they can actually create huge tax headaches and liability, or at least accounting liability, simply by them remaining in one place too long. Western revenue services are seeing these trends and I can already see and hear compliance strategy forming from high taxation countries. I am not pretending that every loophole is going to close immediately, but I will lay bets that most developed countries will be linking payments and demanding citizens prove a new tax base, with returns and tax receipts, before releasing citizens from domestic obligations (you already see this in Scandinavian and Benelux countries) the EU banking directives mean all those transferwise and revolut (and Andorran, Luxembourg and even Swiss banks !!) report all turnover back to the country of registration where the KYC was performed for. Google (hence youtube and other ad driven platforms) know where you are, they know where your bank is, if western revenue wants to lean on google for those payment records google will comply as it doesnt effect them only you !! Etc etc. 

 

Again an interesting story but what bothers me is the derogatory way you are talking about young people that is exploring the world, making some kind of a living and are enjoying life. After a while they settle down and become decent citizens. I can see from the above your life is only about making real money. I hope your 200 K € per annum marketing guys are not the ones that keep bothering me 2/3 times a week on the phone : hello Sir how are you today ? CLICK ! Some of them are trying again on my cellphone but I don't answer. I call them boilerroom types and have no respect for their 200 K. I am 79 years old, long time retired of course and well off but I wish I have had the opportunity in my young life to live for a while the way my type of nomads live but unfortunately internet wasn't invented yet and we were barely surviving from a world war.

Over and out !

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Again an interesting story but what bothers me is the derogatory way you are talking about young people that is exploring the world, making some kind of a living and are enjoying life. After a while they settle down and become decent citizens. I can see from the above your life is only about making real money. I hope your 200 K € per annum marketing guys are not the ones that keep bothering me 2/3 times a week on the phone : hello Sir how are you today ? CLICK ! Some of them are trying again on my cellphone but I don't answer. I call them boilerroom types and have no respect for their 200 K. I am 79 years old, long time retired of course and well off but I wish I have had the opportunity in my young life to live for a while the way my type of nomads live but unfortunately internet wasn't invented yet and we were barely surviving from a world war.

Over and out !

Its not really about my opinion of backpackers trying to eek out some kind of online income source, part time, as they enjoy life.. Its Thailand and other countries desire to appeal to that sector or not. Every time Thailand voices some kind of plan, to attract higher value online professionals with options that have genuine appeal to a kind of well paid section of online professionals, the low end howls that 'its cheaper to be illegal' 'no one can prove what I do' 'why would anyone... 'etc, when it seems quite obvious Thailand and other countries are not aiming these red carpet options at them. 10 year visas, legal 0% offshore sourced income, potentially even land ownership, these are huge offers which could be enormously appealing to many good earners who are able to work at least part of the year online. 

As for marketing by human cold calling.. God no !! More like programming automated AI bots to connect and initiate conversations over linkedin with decision makers in the right industries in which my service adds value.. Once you have a social connection then the opening to move that to a sales discussion exists and a human can take over. It involves data mining, collation of industry specific data sets, then setting the bots to work to build highly connected profiles which are then the tools to reach out within an industry sector. Its not hard, anyone with a basic IQ level and some computer skills can learn to do it. 

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, bkk_mike said:

When I was a contractor (i.e. self-employed), I was able to work remotely from Thailand (Thai wife, so I have no visa issues).

 

Initially I did two weeks in Thailand, two weeks in London (as 183 days of the year out of the country was enough to get outside of a UK tax rule called IR35) for over a year, paying my own flights (classed as a business expense, but essentially it was more than covered by the savings from being deemed outside IR35 even though I was still paying UK tax - as I was making low 6 figures at the time - in pounds, not baht...).

And that was 20 years ago. They cut my rate in 2002, but as part of that deal, I stopped having to do 2 weeks a month in London - so I was actually no worse off as the cut was offset by the savings in flights...

 

Now I'm an employee and the multinational company I work for won't let me work from Thailand because HR care about the work permit side of things, even if I have no visa issues.

 

Anything that simplifies that for an employee where the employer is a multinational where HR want to follow the rules will be good for people like me - and if it's 17% tax in Thailand rather than the significantly higher amount I currently pay in the UK - I'm all for it - we still have multiple properties in Thailand that I could work from - I even have fibre to the home at our house in Bangkok - which I still can't get in London...

Actually the suggestion appears to be its 0% tax, legally !! Domestic income was 17% (and I understand the if you work here its domestic income but then why is there  a 0 % non domestic rate.. I assume thats a translation technicality). 

Its exactly this sector of actual professional worker who this could be very appealing.. The guy sat on a beach googling adsense farming, clickwheels, or whatever other transient idea pops up are the ones who are not really pulling the steady verifiable income I would bet Thailand is pitching for. 

None of this is more than a suggestion so far, but should it come through, it could be a very big boost to Thailands appeals for a well paid long stay visitor.  

[chalawaan]

Here's a newsflash....

 

Oh, nevermind. ????

[Dogmatix]

More nonsense from TAT.

[Genix]

Thai news be like

 

Read the title: Wow, great idea a step forward

Read the requirements: Pranked ya!