Digital nomads to be allowed to work in Thailand without needing a work permit

[Albert Zweistein]

I doubt if many "digital  nomads" are prepared to pay 17 % taxes. They just will work under the radar.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

22 minutes ago, mikosan said:

I wish the new generation of 'digital nomads' all the very best

 

When I was a lad, I had to go to the newsagent to buy smut printed on paper.

[thespecialist6]

15 hours ago, DLock said:

What we have here is a clear lack of understanding of what a digital nomad is, and why they chose to work from Thailand in the first place.

 

Good thinking, but as most things in Thailand...poorly executed.

No good selling a few items on ebay then , doubt any nomads are earning half of 80,000 usd tinpot ideas again

[Poet]

17 minutes ago, Albert Zweistein said:

I doubt if many "digital  nomads" are prepared to pay 17 % taxes. They just will work under the radar.

It is only 17% on money you make from clients or customers in Thailand.

Foreign earnings?

You keep them outside Thailand for one year and are then entitled to bring them into Thailand with no tax at all.

Here's the kicker: I have never heard of anyone being asked to provide any proof that their foreign earnings have actually "matured" for the required year.

Obviously, this loophole already applies to everyone, including Thai citizens, those on Elite visas, Marriage visas, Education visas, Work Permits, and retirement extensions. It exists because it is a massive subsidy to Thailand's rich and elites.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Poet

[shdmn]

So in other words, all the digital nomads will just keep doing what they are doing now on their tourist/retirement visas knowing full well it's almost impossible to enforce any kind of visa restrictions on them.

 

Even if someone qualified for this, it would be kind of stupid to let the Thai gov't know about it and be put on their radar. They could easily change the rules at any time.  Best to stay under the radar as much as possible imo.

Edited June 7, 2021 by shdmn

[Albert Zweistein]

13 hours ago, Misterwhisper said:

Quite interesting logic. So...

 

WITHOUT a master's degree one has to earn at least THB80,000.

But WITH a master's degree one only is required to earn THB40,000.

What if one has TWO master degrees? Is that going to half the income requirement again, to only THB20,000 per month?

 

 

I think they are mentioning $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

I think conceptually, they account for how much their parents had to pay to bypass their kid's slack jaw and get the degree. It's a cultural thing, you know. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[Redline]

Do they need to get up and sing the anthem with the students as well?

[Albert Zweistein]

50 minutes ago, Poet said:

It is only 17% on money you make from clients or customers in Thailand.

Foreign earnings?

You keep them outside Thailand for one year and are then entitled to bring them into Thailand with no tax at all.

Here's the kicker: I have never heard of anyone being asked to provide any proof that their foreign earnings have actually "matured" for the required year.

Obviously, this loophole already applies to everyone, including Thai citizens, those on Elite visas, Marriage visas, Education visas, Work Permits, and retirement extensions. It exists because it is a massive subsidy to Thailand's rich and elites.

 

Making $ 80,000 a year from Thai customers ? ????????????????

[shdmn]

Generally speaking, anyone know how vloggers are classified?  I am assuming they are also considered digital nomads.  Let's say I am a full time youtube vlogger with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and make around $7,000 USD a month.  I go to Thailand on a 1 month tourist visa on arrival and vlog my adventures.  Is that technically in violation of the my tourist visa, potentially causing problems on a subsequent visit?

Edited June 7, 2021 by shdmn

[cmiuc]

If a company does this here, would the employees of the company have follow the individual  nomad rules or is the company sustained enough for them to allow their employees to work for them as they would in their home country?  Any ideas on this?

[Puccini]

16 hours ago, ezzra said:

I didn't know that there is such a term in the Thai language for "digital nomad"...

Yes, there is.

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/ผู้เร่ร่อนดิจิทัล?wprov=sfla1

 

For an in-depth discussion of it, you may start a new topic in  the forum Thai language.

[ericthai]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

 

I'll take you up on this. Will give you a percentage of operating income up to a negotiable maximum cap for your trouble. ????

 

Me too!

[Captain Monday]

4 hours ago, Poet said:

I have no idea what our disagreement is here.

I was writing about the begrudgers on extremely limited state pensions to whom it is a matter of utmost urgency to claim that none of the digital nomads are earning any money at all. Seriously, they rise like zombies every time that phrase appears.

Rather than learn some new skills and take advantage of the online opportunities that have opened up for all of us who enjoy living in Thailand, they would rather continue believing that none of it is possible.

You do not appear to fall into this category. You have not spent your life on the dole. You have had a career, earned money, and do not have to rely on the state during your golden years. Keeping your mind sharp means that, unlike the begrudgers, you have been able to continue learning, experimenting, and gaining new skills. Your personal self-esteem does not depend on believing that all the millions of digital nomads are all faking it.

 

The crusty begrudgers who broke their backs as bricklayers and "lorry" drivers on limited state pensions are just jealous. Younger people  enjoying a mode of living of they never dreamed of, while still young enough to enjoy it.  In Thailand or elsewhere dating educated women near their own age they don't have to pay for.  As long as nomads are not committing crimes or sucking public funds let people live where they want. I don't believe in borders.

 

I know somebody who was doing this  18 years ago, working remotely for a company, paying US taxes and SS, able to contribute to retirement savings.  It is an established model and validated more during the pandemic. For every stable remote workers there are the Drop-Shipping Bearded Unicorns who supposedly defecate $1000 bills. These will find themselves in bedsits in frangiland with no pension unless they keep skills fresh and plan for the future, lest skill set goes obsolete or jobs migrate to the lowest third world  bidder, or they just get too old to be taken seriously

Edited June 7, 2021 by Captain Monday

[Mywayboy]

18 hours ago, Disparate Dan said:

Correct. Like almost all 'news' reports here, there is nothing more than an airy proposal. This comes from TAT, which when I last looked does not have a close liaison with Immigration (or reality).

TAT needs to be seen to be 'doing' something to justify its costs, so every weekend its officials smoke something and the result is this kind of tosh.

Isn't a proposal when a Thai Lady walks you to the ATM & proposes you take $$$$$ out to give her.

[simon43]

[quote]

...Graduates are invariably clueless pr!cks and their qualifications serve only to inflate their sense of entitlement over those with better experience.

[/quote]

 

Lol, the usual comments from those who don't have a degree ????

[ericthai]

4 hours ago, shdmn said:

Generally speaking, anyone know how vloggers are classified?  I am assuming they are also considered digital nomads.  Let's say I am a full time youtube vlogger with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and make around $7,000 USD a month.  I go to Thailand on a 1 month tourist visa on arrival and vlog my adventures.  Is that technically in violation of the my tourist visa, potentially causing problems on a subsequent visit?

Well,  legally you cant work on a tourist visa...I've known a few guys that worked without the proper visa and no work permit for years with no issues. Will you get caught? most likely not, but if one of those videos goes viral for the wrong reason it could be problems. This is Thailand were rules and laws in most cases with the proper "donation" turns into misunderstandings. However, the "donations" wont work if some govt official wants to make an example of you.

[shdmn]

3 minutes ago, ericthai said:

Well,  legally you cant work on a tourist visa...I've known a few guys that worked without the proper visa and no work permit for years with no issues. Will you get caught? most likely not, but if one of those videos goes viral for the wrong reason it could be problems. This is Thailand were rules and laws in most cases with the proper "donation" turns into misunderstandings. However, the "donations" wont work if some govt official wants to make an example of you.

There is no hiding from vlogging.  That defeats the purpose.  Just go to youtube and search "thailand vlog".  Boom, there they are.  So it's trivial for Thai authorities to figure out if you are vlogging in Thailand or not.  The more money you make from it the easier you will be discovered.  The only thing you can do is not post your full name to make it a little harder for them.  They can still figure it out though and of course they have your picture.

Edited June 7, 2021 by shdmn

[scorecard]

22 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

i have a Masters in Digital Nomads. 

 

My thesis paper subject was the mating habits of women on ThaiFriendly and Tinder. 

 

My thesis was to prove that I know and can spell my home address. Had to repeat it which is the proof that I can spell it. 

 

Agree there's not a full definition of Digital Nomads.

 

Some years back it seemed to refer to the mostly very young and annoying backpackers who gathered in coffee shops (e.g. for a few days, a big coffee shop behind Big C Extra in CM) and approach mostly foreigners asking: 'Do you have an e.mail account, and a personal website and accounts with facebook, twitter and what'sapp, ...?

 

The Thai government says you have to have these and I can help you'. 

 

Now it seems to refer to folks who are employed by offshore companies but all their work can be done online and therefore their location could be anywhere in the world where there's an internet connection'.

 

Keeping in mind of course that this is a suggestion/proposal from the TAT, not a suggestion/proposal from the Thai government and not a Thai government policy.  

Edited June 8, 2021 by scorecard

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The TAT (Tourism Authority of Thailand) is making visa and work permit  policy now...me thinks the Foreign Ministry, Interior Ministry (Immigration), and the Labour Department will have something to say about this.

 True, the reality is that the TAT has regularly been making suggestions re imm, WP, etc., matters, 99% of which has been ignored by the Thai Gov;t. 

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, Poet said:

To be fair, it gives all the bitter, low-skilled members here, struggling to remain in Thailand on state pensions, a chance to express how superior they are compared to these young people who have embraced the Internet, have developed enough skills to be able to be their own bosses, are traveling the world instead of being stuck in an office, and are living a life that the begrudgers could only dream of.

 

What a sad comment. 

[ThailandRyan]

Do we not all have an MA of Digitalis Nomadi, since we have to negotiate the Immigration website for paperwork, and every 90 days transcend to the hallowed halls of said Immigration, to report with paperwork to show we are indeed still residing at the home we have made.  Doesn't the ability to negotiate the countries endless changing rules and immigration policies show life experience, asking for a friend.  Hmmm.....as I write this from a coffee shop inside the public library using the free wireless internet provided..........

 

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/digital-nomad

They often work in coffee shops, co-working spaces, or public libraries, relying on devices with wireless internet

 

[HansumFarang]

1 hour ago, shdmn said:

There is no hiding from vlogging.  That defeats the purpose.  Just go to youtube and search "thailand vlog".  Boom, there they are.  So it's trivial for Thai authorities to figure out if you are vlogging in Thailand or not.  The more money you make from it the easier you will be discovered.  The only thing you can do is not post your full name to make it a little harder for them.  They can still figure it out though and of course they have your picture.

 

 

Why, were you thinking of grassing someone up?

 

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, James105 said:

 

Was that a tax question or whether or not their activities constitute "work" which is not legal with a tourist visa, which would be entirely different to tax?  I guess its really a question for Thai specialist tax advisors/lawyers, and if I did remove my tax liability from the UK I would definitely get one.   

That was a question of what defines work, but that is also a tax question because in Thailand 'work' defined by active income as spelled out in that definition is taxed from day 1, and requires a work permit. Passive income, as rather neatly also laid out in that example, is not then defined as work and isn't taxed from day 1 and doesn't need a work permit. Interestingly pensions are also clearly named as a source of taxable passive income in the tax code. 

Passive income then goes through another set of criteria including was the income brought into the kingdom in the year it was earned and was the person who earned it in the kingdom over 180 days in a tax year. If all those are met (resident over 180 days, remitted into the kingdom within the year it was earned, etc) then it is tax liable and the individual should clear thier tax residency from thier 'home' country and establish tax residency in Thailand to claim back any taxes paid elsewhere under individual DTAs. However this liability isnt actually pursued, due to the near impossibility of proving it, much like online workers, but thats the rules as laid out int the tax code. 

I know everyone claims experience on every topic, but this is precisely what I do. I am cross border taxation specialist for payrolling, legalization, permanent establishments, etc. 

[LivinLOS]

11 hours ago, gearbox said:

 

Do you really get eligible tax history for citizenship with 0 tax paid for domestic income ?

 

If the cost of the 10 years visa and the bureaucracy involved is comparable to 10 x non-O retirement extension renewals it might be a good plan B.

A lot of small details are missing although, is this a true 10 year visa or one year visa which can be extended 9 times? What happens if you decide to take for example a two year work break?

No one knows.. The devil is in the details but if you get a work permit or exemption, and have 3 years tax records, yes you would appear to be on the ladder.. 

Maybe they block this route.. maybe they dont.. its all just hot air and ideas at the moment.

But for everyone slagging it, I think these are another set of visas, much like the O-X, which doesnt appeal the lower income set (so will get all kinds of howls from the Thai visa crowd) but actually does appeal to the smaller higher net worth or decently earning online professionals set. 

 

[LivinLOS]

8 hours ago, Poet said:

If I remember your posts correctly, you are a good writer. Maybe start there.

One month, treat it like a job, 9-5, six days a week.

Learn all you can about how people get paid to write online and, in particular, specialized forms of writing such as SEO or editing résumés or marketing copy etc.

Alternatively, choose an application that does something for which there is always demand: video-editing, audio-editing, podcast producing, animation, photo restoration, making graphs etc. Spend a month learning every facet and feature of that application, master advanced features such as macros, hone your skills and increase your speed.

Alternatively, if you prefer the idea of coding, same thing, 8 hours a day, six days a week.

Spend the first week learning fundamental programming concepts in the morning, and the afternoons researching where you can get freelance works, what languages or frameworks are in demand etc.

Once you have chosen a language or frameworks, spend the mornings watching tutorials and copying everything yourself. Spend the afternoons learning about which tools, such as editors or IDEs are popular for that language or framework.

Always take your evenings off, get away from your screens, exercise, sleep on time.

Devote your four sharp morning hours towards learning concepts, and your four afternoon hours towards more general, lay-of-the-land research.

Whether writing or coding, stay focused, like a laser, on gaining enough skill and industry knowledge within one month to start taking on the most basic freelance jobs. Now you are getting paid to learn more.

REMEMBER: Being able to communicate with clients, being organized, delivering on time, and not overpromising or underestimating timelines are all more important than your actual skills. Most freelancers are delusional, do not have even the basics, and mess their clients about dreadfully. Simply being sane will single you out as a gem. Your age, education, or prior experience will not matter at all.

Earning $100 per day is a very low target - even the lowest level of online teachers earn more than that. The point is that what you can charge increases rapidly as your reputation for being reliable is established, as the number of things you can do grows, and as the speed at which you can complete tasks increases.

Again, if anyone is serious about getting to the first level of being paid to perform tasks online, you can achieve that within a month. You just have to want it enough to drop everything else: YouTube, TikTok, Reddit, ThaiVisa, Facebook, porn, TV, alcohol etc. You have to want it enough to make your partner, family, and friends understand that you are working, and must not be disturbed during those 8 hours each day.

Most people actually don't want it enough to put all those addictions on hold for a month, but that does not mean it is not possible, it just means that you are not yet ready.

 

Lots of good advice in that.. 

One thing I would add is, I will never involve myself in any project that doesnt scale.. Selling yourself by the hour, no matter what rate you get paid per hour, you run out of hours you can work to increase your income. I would FAR rather invest my time only in scaleable outcomes, even if that means that initially it makes zero or close to zero as long as theres an exponential outcome (app development, services creation, etc) I can live with year one paying 1 dollar, as long as year 2 is 100k and year 3 is 1,000,000.. The initial sacrifice of instant income has paid out for me multiple times in my life with the <deleted> you money payoff down the road. 

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

I doubt if many "digital  nomads" are prepared to pay 17 % taxes. They just will work under the radar.

Disagree.. And in the very near future (if not already) corporate compliance is going to be asking questions also. Its not quite there but this last year has seen a raised awareness in the risks for corporation in location independent staff. Theres tax risks to having free roaming staff where countries can declare a fictitious permanent establishment (in simple terms a branch office, minus the office) which creates a corporate liability to present accounts and potentially create a tax liability. 

A lot of this law is not well established or tested yet, but EU governments in high tax countries (Scandinavia, Benelux etc) are starting to see the holes in these systems and becoming much more aggressive.  I believe that corp compliance will start demanding proof of good standing and residential clearances etc as a method of protecting themselves. Its a part of the payrolling market I am trying to position one of my companies for. 

Of course there will always be ways of gaming it, of having an offshore or hong kong style zero tax shield, but will the contract givers accept those risks ?? In SME world probably yes for years to come, in fortune 500 ?? Less so. 

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, shdmn said:

Generally speaking, anyone know how vloggers are classified?  I am assuming they are also considered digital nomads.  Let's say I am a full time youtube vlogger with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and make around $7,000 USD a month.  I go to Thailand on a 1 month tourist visa on arrival and vlog my adventures.  Is that technically in violation of the my tourist visa, potentially causing problems on a subsequent visit?

Question was answered in detail 2 pages back. 

Yes in fact a video blogger with ads enabled is in need of a work permit.. See the 'My Mate Nate' case where a face saving 'out' was found. 

[The Cipher]

8 hours ago, Poet said:

One month, treat it like a job, 9-5, six days a week.

 

Thanks for this, Poet! Appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

 

I've already got a fairly demanding, but well comped job (Associate at a PE firm) that is currently letting me work remotely for part of the year. But that arrangement might(?) end as life returns to normal in <home country>. I'm chasing freedom and would rather not have a boss anymore ????.

 

Because of said job, I'm not able to commit to 9-5, six days a week, but can commit to about 30 hours a week.

 

9 hours ago, Poet said:

Learn all you can about how people get paid to write online and, in particular, specialized forms of writing such as SEO or editing résumés or marketing copy etc.

 

My intention is to start a business selling a niche product online. I've incorporated (in my home country) and have a business plan, financial model, completed branding, and contact with a supplier. Now I'm at the 'test demand' stage before committing to an order.

 

I'm comfortable managing companies, but have zero experience selling/advertising online. Also don't know small details like which social media channels the brand needs to be on, how often posts need to go up there, etc.

 

Do you have any recommendations for the fastest way, or best educational materials, to become competent at that stuff? Would save me time stumbling around in the dark.

[Karma80]

9 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

I doubt if many "digital  nomads" are prepared to pay 17 % taxes. They just will work under the radar.

 

Illegal complete tax avoidance is not easy nowadays. It will catch up and bite you in the ass. Until then you're looking over your shoulder in an increasingly digitally matched system. Smart people use low tax strategies.

Thailand offering 0% tax on offshore income and 17% in country is compelling because you will be a legit tax resident. Sure, it's no Dubai, but you don't have to live in a mall stuck in a desert and have a lower cost of living.