What about us? Furious retirees/expats in Thailand slam proposals to attract wealthy foreigners

[Tanomazu]

54 minutes ago, Venom said:

Not to mention the extreme air pollution that inundates the country for five months every year and getting worse! Chiang Mai made most polluted city on the planet two years in a row due to the unsustainable practice of burning the fields after harvest. ???? 

Not in Ko Samui. No extreme pollution there. And even in CM it's only for 3 months of the year, the rest of the year the air quality is very good. If you check the pollution rankings now, no Thai cities to be seen near or far.

 

https://www.iqair.com/world-air-quality-ranking

[Charlie Halliday]

I've been buying property and land here for 25 years. Have lived here the past 10 years, support my wife and kids and many other Thai  family members. Annual spend in Thailand is a minimum THB3m plus private  school fees, replace 2 cars every 4 years, and directly hire 6 Thais for various household and garden jobs. Have spent over THB 40m in the past 5 years buying land and building my family 2 homes in Thailand. But I have to do 90 day check in , all the annual visa BS, show photos of us as a family to prove we're not a fake marriage and am treated like a dog at immigration. Never had one favor from the govt. There are lots of Europeans here who have spent a lot more than me and they also get treated like dogs. No wonder foreigners are outraged at the govts latest proposal. The ones already here spend Billions supporting the economy yet they conveniently forget that. Morons in charge. Always have been. 

[goldenbrwn1]

A few nasty maybe even bitter posters on this thread. I get the points but come on there is no need to be so judgmental.  

[Tropposurfer]

I look at living in LOS this way;

 

In my home country if you have money you have more privilege and can avoid, and negotiate many things to have a smoother life. Money buys both ease and some degree of momentary, worldly materialistic control.

Same same in LOS. I am a visitor here, never will be anything else ... I acknowledge this and accept this as how it is. Oh yes I may be lucky to be loved and befriended deeply by some Thais if I offer the same.

Damn lets be straight here, I have no more control in my country of origin, I'm a bl..dy visitor in my own country as soon as I step outside some governmental control and edicts!

I hold not expectations I will live the balance of my life in peace here, although this is what I hope for ... I just go along day at a time. Obey the laws and social rules, be kind, smile a lot, don't walk about with that ridiculously and laughable white privilege rubbish swimming about in my thick head.

I laugh at the paradox and contradictions of life both here and elsewhere (they're no less present and annoying in Australia), and practice a Buddhist process of non attachment. I can (and do) default to my grumpy old man persona so I gotta watch it and check myself and be bl..dy grateful I am reasonably well, still get-it-up nicely, am such a hansum man lol, and have so much ease and comfort ... with as much security in these fleeting things as any human being has in this temporary life.

If I want to be around white people then I can simply go back to where I came from, or visit Bang Tao for a short while to see why I prefer a Buddhist way of life as opposed to a Judeo-Christian way. 

Thankfully so far I see far more benefit to expenditure in my daily life here to leave or to wax whingy about how Thais see me in whatever way they wish to see me, which I suspect has a lot more to do with my projections of my own opinions of myself than how any Thai sees me. 

S..t happens, and will happen, and despite any of my neurotic tantrums in attempts to deny it, whether in my country of origin or here in LOS, I have zero control about almost everything except how I chose; either to respond or react. 

I invested some millions in a new home cars etc here and if I should find myself being told to leave and loose the lot then s..t happens and I will simply return to my country of origin ... ridiculously over priced place that it is, breathe in and out, and remember the beautiful sunsets, the breathtakingly beautiful dawn swims along my local beach, the silky skinned women with gorgeous almond eyes I have held, the icy cold beers, the delicious foods, the cheap (almost everything), and the warmth and kindness of the genuine Thais I have known.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Tropposurfer

[PB172111]

I am astounded at the amount of abuse towards the Thai Government. I mean abuse and not just voicing your opinion. Aside from me thinking it was against Forum rules to slander the Thai authority, there are many other ways to express your opinions. I agree with the sentiment but I don’t agree with the abuse.

it leads me to believe that the mostly acerbis comments are from the older expat community who, by their words have lived here for many years, assume they have rights in the Kingdom. It doesn’t matter how many years you have lived and contributed here. You are here by choice and you can leave at anytime. Unless your funds don’t allow it, then you really shouldn’t be here anyway.

Or maybe, just maybe it’s pure jealousy…..

[PB172111]

7 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

I look at living in LOS this way;

 

In my home country if you have money you have more privilege and can avoid, and negotiate many things to have a smoother life. Money buys both ease and some degree of momentary, worldly materialistic control.

Same same in LOS. I am a visitor here, never will be anything else ... I acknowledge this and accept this as how it is. Oh yes I may be lucky to be loved and befriended deeply by some Thais if I offer the same.

Damn lets be straight here, I have no more control in my country of origin, I'm a bl..dy visitor in my own country as soon as I step outside some governmental control and edicts!

I hold not expectations I will live the balance of my life in peace here, although this is what I hope for ... I just go along day at a time. Obey the laws and social rules, be kind, smile a lot, don't walk about with that ridiculously and laughable white privilege rubbish swimming about in my thick head.

I laugh at the paradox and contradictions of life both here and elsewhere (they're no less present and annoying in Australia), and practice a Buddhist process of non attachment. I can (and do) default to my grumpy old man persona so I gotta watch it and check myself and be bl..dy grateful I am reasonably well, still get-it-up nicely, am such a hansum man lol, and have so much ease and comfort ... with as much security in these fleeting things as any human being has in this temporary life.

If I want to be around white people then I can simply go back to where I came from, or visit Bang Tao for a short while to see why I prefer a Buddhist way of life as opposed to a Judeo-Christian way. 

Thankfully so far I see far more benefit to expenditure in my daily life here to leave or to wax whingy about how Thais see me in whatever way they wish to see me, which I suspect has a lot more to do with my projections of my own opinions of myself than how any Thai sees me. 

S..t happens, and will happen, and despite any of my neurotic tantrums in attempts to deny it, whether in my country of origin or here in LOS, I have zero control about almost everything except how I chose; either to respond or react. 

I invested some millions in a new home cars etc here and if I should find myself being told to leave and loose the lot then s..t happens and I will simply return to my country of origin ... ridiculously over priced place that it is, breathe in and out, and remember the beautiful sunsets, the breathtakingly beautiful dawn swims along my local beach, the silky skinned women with gorgeous almond eyes I have held, the icy cold beers, the delicious foods, the cheap (almost everything), and the warmth and kindness of the genuine Thais I have known.

 

 

Well said ????

[saakura]

1 hour ago, lesmac said:

I have lived here almost20 years bought  house many cars paid millions in Thai tax, supported the local community and still get treated as an alien 

If you have paid millions in Thai tax, why not apply and get a PR? If you are a well educated & high tax payer for 20 years, and have the documents to prove it, it is just a matter of applying and waiting a few years. 

[PB172111]

8 hours ago, mikebell said:

They are trotting out this hoary old chestnut more and more frequently now as desperation sets in.  The wealthy will not come to live in a place where there is no rule of law; no police force; dangerous roads AND a pandemic of corruption from the local cop up to the very highest in the land. Droughts and floods alternate regularly and then there are the dogs!

Obviously you do not live here with those comments. Or do you…..?

[cardinalblue]

Thailand is attractive b/c your dollar goes further here than in one’s home country…but it’s a low end country for infrastructure and services….

 

I just don’t see multi millionaires moving to thailand….money is not a driving force and thailand doesn’t offer the amenities and services for the elite crowd…

[Citzofwrld2]

4 minutes ago, PB172111 said:

Obviously you do not live here with those comments. Or do you…..?

Its seems, the poor of all countries, not just Thailand, should have caught on by now, no big money, you're not welcome anymore. Go back to where you came from, your small town, village in the jungle or wherever and die, out of sight of billionaires, millionaires. That includes those of meager incomes such as police, etc that really only deal with their own kind, the poor. People paying attention saw that starting in the U.S. right after, by design, not accident Katrina. Once out, make sure they don t return.

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, ericthai said:

ok, but if you had no work permit so you were still working illegally, just because everyone turned a blind eye to it doesn't change the fact.

 

However we are talking 20 years ago so things were very very different. Immigration was relaxed, you could get a 1 year B visa with a simple letter from an employer. Go to immigration tell them you need to stay a few days longer, they would tell you to overstay. So easy back then. I'm surprised you did boarder runs, most guys I knew just used agents that would run the passports to the boarder to get it stamped. 

I made 4 trips to Thailand where I spent a few 30-day entries each staying at the NGO location before moving to Thailand. Since moving to Thailand I have been squeaky clean as to all immigration regulations. I never said that I lived in Thailand while 'working' at the NGO about 20 years ago.

 

And screw the agents

[VBF]

6 hours ago, Boarn said:

I agree that Thailand can be cheaper than the UK, however I find now that my monthly shop in Makro (stocking up on steaks, frozen berries, lamb etc, not cheap produce) costs less than what was my typical night out in Bangkok back in day. I don't live in Bangkok anymore but when a night out is costing 20k baht, when the same night out used to cost 5k back when I moved here - and that was the main reason I moved here, cheap, not just cheap living, cheap entertainment, entertainment came first for me, Thailand can't be classed as a cheap destination for fun at all anymore. The people who are here stay here due to commitments, the people who move here now don't know how it used to be. I don't know anyone who lived here pre around 2008 and like it more now.

Actually, having been visiting Thailand since the mid-eighties and "living" on Phuket for a few years, I can understand that.

I'm now very much a tourist, and, (when possible) "Snowbird" in Thailand but if I compare Bangkok in the eighties with Bangkok now I can see massive changes and prefer it as it was, dirty, noisy, dangerous and "edgy."  Today, it feels like "Singapore Light" in many ways.

 

Compare Pattaya then and now and similar comments apply.  But, I like Pattaya for 3-4 months at a time, when the weather's good there and bad in UK.

 

Phuket, the so-called "Pearl of the Andaman"  has, for me, been ruined by the developments for...tourists, i.e. people like me...how ironic!  Now  none of my friends live there, I doubt i shall ever go again, but it was great while it lasted.

 

Having said that, where in the developed or developing world hasn't changed in that time?

Where I live in UK has changed a lot in the last couple of decades - for the better or worse is a matter of opinion.

 

And, which of us hasn't changed in that time? I'm not the same man at 60+ as I was in my thirties....in so many ways!

Places and people have that in common, at least, IMO. It's called evolution and it's both good and bad.

 

End of Philosophy lecture ????

[Bobydog]

8 hours ago, mikebell said:

They are trotting out this hoary old chestnut more and more frequently now as desperation sets in.  The wealthy will not come to live in a place where there is no rule of law; no police force; dangerous roads AND a pandemic of corruption from the local cop up to the very highest in the land. Droughts and floods alternate regularly and then there are the dogs!

Hear Hear! With all the lies and mismanagement published daily together with get rich schemes to top up the junta purses the likely hood of a large number of people seeking to live in Thailand will be slim pickings.

Rules and Compliances are subject to change without notice so why would they even consider Thailand, they should try looking after the expats they have and set an example.

[Scrotobike]

Couldn't be bothered to read all 11 pages - all repeating the same mantra - not fair

Who cares it will fail anyway - apart from some Chinese "family" who will only come if they can own land. 

When the Chinese start buying land all hell will break loose.

[VBF]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Which counties? Certainky not the UK. 

Sure about that? Forger ran fake passport factory from his attic

Just one example which took me less than 10 seconds to find!

[Tanomazu]

6 minutes ago, VBF said:

 if I compare Bangkok in the eighties with Bangkok now I can see massive changes and prefer it as it was, dirty, noisy, dangerous and "edgy."  Today, it feels like "Singapore Light" in many ways.

I have to say I also find Bangkok very similar to Singapore now. Sure, Singapore is a little cleaner, BKK has a bit more poverty, but in terms of infrastructure, Metro same same, Malls same same, overcrowding same same.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Tanomazu

[Smithson]

1 hour ago, ericthai said:

Where do you get the work permits are unfair? I never had an issue getting a work permit. 

Yes, they aren't that difficult, but on top of the non O it adds another layer. Many other countries just issue a work visa. The whole process takes time away from being productive, it's not good for the economy.

[kennw]

8 hours ago, worgeordie said:

OK go there, but you will find it a lot more expensive, just leave

things the way they are ,if they start making changes we could

end up a lot worse off.

regards Worgeordie

Hardly a constructive comment, and do you think they have not been making changes already, 90day, TM30, bank statements, no more Embassy letters re income, minimum bank balances, we are the low hanging fruit.  

[VBF]

3 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Covid-19 and climate change have changed the trajectory of global tourism for the foreseeable future, if not forever. The time to recognize that global mass tourism is not sustainable has long since passed.  It is time for the Thai government to realize that the world has entered the Age of Atonement, and to recognize that for most of us, our lives have been characterized by unsustainable over-consumption of goods and services. The competition to see who can consume the most is being replaced by a competition to see who can do the most to improve the environment. If the Thai government were smart it would be looking for ways to attract people who can do the most to help towards the goal of improving the environment and combating climate change: academics, climate specialists, mass transit infrastructure specialists, agriculturalists, etc.

 

Giving preferential treatment to the wealthy, hoping to benefit in the short term from their ostentatious consumerism is environmentally unsustainable, conflicts with many Buddhist values, and will benefit already wealthy business and property owners the most. On the other hand, a focus on reforming the educational system and becoming the ASEAN leader in climate change technology would benefit farmers and the lower and middle classes the most, which in the long run would improve Thailand's economic health and social fabric.

 

Trying to restore Thailand's tourism industry to its past glory and heyday is shortsighted and, frankly, delusional. Mass-tourism puts an unsustainable strain on Thailand's  environment as well as the Thai people's cultural resiliency. At its core, Thailand's attraction was the charm of its people, and its environmental beauty.

 

Covid-19 masks have literally hidden from sight the emblematic Thai smile. People have had to learn to be satisfied with reading smile lines around the eyes.  Engaging socially is hazardous duty: hygiene masks hide facial expressions, interactions are held to a minimum, conversations are conducted through vinyl partitions and hand signals, and trying to make yourself understood or understand someone through an N-95 mask is exhausting and frustrating no matter how good your Thai is. So, thinking that tourists are going to come flocking back under these conditions is pretty unrealistic in my book.

 

Environmental degradation too has spoiled much of Thailand's natural beauty: rain forests, elephant reserves, hill tribe villages, and unspoiled beaches and islands. Does Thailand still have the environmental assets to attract wealthy travelers, those who presumably have a wide range of options available to them? Mother nature needs time to heal. I am sure I am not alone in reporting that the healing process is slowing beginning. Out in the countryside, the air is fresher, wildlife seems to be regenerating. On successive early morning walks I have spotted a family of owls together. It is heartening to see the recuperative power of mother nature. Why not let that healing process continue for the long-term benefit of the Thai people?

 

I would say Thailand needs to start making more long-range plans about its future, and stop tinkering with quick fix solutions to get things back to the way they were a few years back. It's not going to work: the world has changed. Instead, I would focus on reforming the educational system, and attracting resources from abroad which can help improve the academic culture in Thailand, and help Thailand become a regional leader in climate change technology and innovation. These are the people Thailand should be competing to attract. Fire the sycophantic fortune tellers, astrologers, and "yes-man" toadies who are only capable of looking to the past for guidance, and hire forward thinking planners and technocrats to help move Thailand's economy and education system into the 21rst century.

 

The world has changed. Pretending it hasn't, is only wasting precious time.

 

Agree except for the paragraph starting "Covid-19 masks....."

In my view, that is a temporary situation......could be far more temporary if the Govt got its finger out regarding vaccination, of course but that's another subject!

[orchidfan]

Oh page 11.

Nobody will read this, but just by comparison,  I went and worked in Hong Kong for a government department for 20 yrs. 

On arrival, a "working Visa " but no expiry date. 

Brought Thai GF over many times until immigration finally told me " sorry Sir but we don't have a gf visa, you'll have to marry her if you want her to stay.

Also very polite and respectful IO there compared to here. 

So did.

And for both of us after 7yrs living there applied for and both got permanent HKID cards......forever. 

(Think I have to return every 3 yrs, even for a touch and go).

NO immigration visits, no 90 days, no photos etc,etc....like here. 

Can work and own property.....no problems. 

Cheap travel, reasonable food costs, booze etc. Nice beaches on the many outlying islands. 

Yes the CCP have made it hard for protesters,  but life goes on pretty much normally. 

Point is, after 7 years, a few declarations on a 2hr visit and you're in. Don't have to read or speak Chinese. 

Btw, I'm living here in Bangkok since full Retirement (marriage extension ) but can go back to HK anytime (with quarantine of course as Thailand is classified Dangerous )

[VBF]

3 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

But you get the right to live in Thailand with whatever long term visa you get. What's the difference to residency really?

 

You still get to live in the country.

 

Okay, reporting. Minor annoyance.

No...you get to stay in the country for a fixed period after which you need to apply again and could be refused.

That, is not living in the country with all the security of tenure that "living" implies

[orchidfan]

17 minutes ago, VBF said:

Actually, having been visiting Thailand since the mid-eighties and "living" on Phuket for a few years, I can understand that.

I'm now very much a tourist, and, (when possible) "Snowbird" in Thailand but if I compare Bangkok in the eighties with Bangkok now I can see massive changes and prefer it as it was, dirty, noisy, dangerous and "edgy."  Today, it feels like "Singapore Light" in many ways.

 

Compare Pattaya then and now and similar comments apply.  But, I like Pattaya for 3-4 months at a time, when the weather's good there and bad in UK.

 

Phuket, the so-called "Pearl of the Andaman"  has, for me, been ruined by the developments for...tourists, i.e. people like me...how ironic!  Now  none of my friends live there, I doubt i shall ever go again, but it was great while it lasted.

 

Having said that, where in the developed or developing world hasn't changed in that time?

Where I live in UK has changed a lot in the last couple of decades - for the better or worse is a matter of opinion.

 

And, which of us hasn't changed in that time? I'm not the same man at 60+ as I was in my thirties....in so many ways!

Places and people have that in common, at least, IMO. It's called evolution and it's both good and bad.

 

End of Philosophy lecture ????

Just love your "Singapore lite" description. Have lived in both for years (now Thailand ). Remember my Malaysian work friends saying that "at least in Malaysia you can walk on the grass without being fined"????????

[Tanomazu]

1 minute ago, VBF said:

No...you get to stay in the country for a fixed period after which you need to apply again and could be refused.

That, is not living in the country with all the security of tenure that "living" implies

So you apply again, big deal. Gets easier each time. And if they approved you once, odds are you'll be approved again.

 

Sure, it's an inconvenience, but it's not exactly an insurmountable obstacle, is it?

[VBF]

1 minute ago, Tanomazu said:

So you apply again, big deal. Gets easier each time. And if they approved you once, odds are you'll be approved again.

 

Sure, it's an inconvenience, but it's not exactly an insurmountable obstacle, is it?

Point taken...BUT the very fact that the rules can and do change year to year and that you are basically beholden to the Immigration Dept. means there is a level of uncertainty not conducive to a stress less life. Particularly applies to older people I think

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, VBF said:

No...you get to stay in the country for a fixed period after which you need to apply again and could be refused.

That, is not living in the country with all the security of tenure that "living" implies

I call it a total lack of residence security.

[Caldera]

Introducing some new options doesn't necessarily take anything away from those already in the country, so I don't really get the excitement at this point.

 

That being said, I think they will fall way short of their dreamed up number of foreigners they'll attract. 

[VBF]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I call it a total lack of residence security.

And yet, you have made the choice to remain in Thailand - more power to you but you are at least aware of the reality of your situation

[VBF]

57 minutes ago, cardinalblue said:

Thailand is attractive b/c your dollar goes further here than in one’s home country…but it’s a low end country for infrastructure and services….

 

I just don’t see multi millionaires moving to thailand….money is not a driving force and thailand doesn’t offer the amenities and services for the elite crowd…

And that, IMO sums it up. Multi-millionaires will probably visit Thailand in the knowledge that they can afford to go anywhere at any time.  That's one thing money buys - choice.

Edited September 15, 2021 by VBF

[Noah K]

I really do have to comment on this topic because it has been on my mind for a long time. I live in MaeJo, and my wife and I are building a house in Mae Rim. I am retired, I love Thailand, and spend my pension here. I'm not a millionaire, but I spent close to five million baht in the last year alone. I also help the local economy everyday. I am not a big Lotus, or Seven fan. I don't do McDonalds, KFC, or Burger King. Aren't these folks rich (money) enough? The real richness in life here are the local people that open up a little store, roadside grill, or restaurant where you can sit down and enjoy a great lunch for just 45 baht. I shop the local open air markets for all my fresh veggies and fruits and to enjoy the aroma of the many foods being cooked and sounds of the crowds enjoying their night out. It also helps me learn to speak Thai better, but at 64 it is a lot slower going than I would like. When I renew my retirement visa in February 2022, I will have a yellow book, and pink card, a Thai driver's license for a car as well as a motorbike, medical insurance, a bank account, a home and a healthy retirement income. There are literally tens of thousands of retirees like myself which is why Asean Now is writing about us and why we need to express ourselves. I don't get involved in the student protests, but I understand why they are protesting. I don't have a say in Thai politics, but my Thai friends sure do have an opinion, and well, it's not very glowing. All I can say is that hopefully our voices will be heard because together we spend millions, if not billions of baht each year, and most of us consider ourselves law abiding citizens of Thailand even though we were not born here. The people they are talking about for 10 year visas will come and spend millions of dollars yes, but only if they see a way to make a profit. They won't live here or spend money in the local economy. They will come, make a bundle, and live anywhere they want, so many places for the very wealthy. If you add up the tens of thousands of retirees already living here and spend their money in the local economy, it beats anything these wealthy folks can offer. So when they finally see our side, offer us a permanent resident status, more retires like myself and others will also come to retire here as well. It really is a win-win for everyone.

[tomacht8]

18 minutes ago, Smithson said:

Yes, they aren't that difficult, but on top of the non O it adds another layer. Many other countries just issue a work visa. The whole process takes time away from being productive, it's not good for the economy.

Work permit for married people:

If the Thai woman has a business, the foreign husband is not allowed to help out so easily. To do this, a small family LTD must first be formally founded. An accounting office must be hired for the annual accounts. An employment contract must be made. Depending on the country of origin, the Thai wife has to pay the husband 40,000-70000 Baht salary per month for the work, even if the business does not yield that much. That is then the tax base. Once for the salary of the foreign husband and then the taxes for the small family LTD.

 

This is how Thailand treats its foreigners married to Thais.

 

I'm doing very well financially. My income comes from abroad from renting out several apartment buildings. I no longer have to work, but as a husband I am not allowed to help my Thai wife in her business unbureaucratically.