Electric vehicles of all kinds

[KhunLA]

Solar is now 'cheap enough' here in Thailand for the homeowner to have.  ROI is 5-10 yrs, depending how abusive you are with your AC.

 

New house build will have solar, and done the end of this year.  Already got my scooter choices down to 2 manufactures, just need to sit on them to decide which one to purchase, possibly this month.  Next car will be EV.  No reason for homeowners not to have solar, or people not to have E-scooters.

 

Had I known the house would be solar, I may have bought the EV version of our car last year.

Edited October 8, 2021 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Solar is now 'cheap enough' here in Thailand for the homeowner to have.  ROI is 5-10 yrs, depending how abusive you are with your AC.

 

New house build will have solar, and done the end of this year.  Already got my scooter choices down to 2 manufactures, just need to sit on them to decide which one to purchase, possibly this month.  Next car will be EV.  No reason for homeowners not to have solar, or people not to have E-scooters.

I think the ROI you have quoted is for DIY installations that also use grid power at night. I am planning just such an installation. 

 

In any event, I agree that solar is great, but you have to enough area to support it. Most people do not. I would bet that not 5% of the population of Bangkok proper have enough area to provide even enough power to get through the day, much less charge batteries for overnight. 

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

The solar ETF is +602% in 5 years.

Let me check the coal ETF for you....o never mind...it closed.

Somebody get this guy a tissue.

That's what I thought, thanks.

[LarrySR]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Solar is now 'cheap enough' here in Thailand for the homeowner to have.  ROI is 5-10 yrs, depending how abusive you are with your AC.

 

New house build will have solar, and done the end of this year.  Already got my scooter choices down to 2 manufactures, just need to sit on them to decide which one to purchase, possibly this month.  Next car will be EV.  No reason for homeowners not to have solar, or people not to have E-scooters.

Nice.

 In the USA, First Solar will install a home solar system and the monthly payments will be cheaper than your current electricity bill in most scenarios. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:01 PM, KhunLA said:

Motor show at BITEC, was scheduled for mid Oct, already postponed, or going online presented.  No updates.

 

A few of the current EV models, with pricing available now here.  A couple ticker toy cars, at ฿500k make, then ฿1 m & up.

https://th.carro.co/blog/10-cheapest-ev-cars-in-thailand/

The MG EP looks like a decent vehicle and costs less than ฿1 m (albeit only just).

[KannikaP]

The Hybrid Electric Vehicle (2nd one in the list) is not really electric as it gets its power from the fuel it uses to charge the batteries. I know that some will say it gets power from the kinetic energy whilst braking, but that energy has been put in the vehicle by the internal combustion engine.

You can't get owt for nowt! 

[KhunLA]

32 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The MG EP looks like a decent vehicle and costs less than ฿1 m (albeit only just).

Yes, that would be my choice if can get in/out comfortably.  Wasn't available when we bought the MG ZS last year.  The ZS EV has a ฿500k premium price to it, which I thought was a bit silly, ฿700 vs ฿1.2 M.  EP has 100 km more range also ????

 

We're out & about quite a bit, that and the premium price kept us from the ZS EV.  Now, past year or so, they've been expanding the charging station network.  Not sure how that works, but being out & about wouldn't seem to be a problem now.

[seedy]

This is the reason that solar/wind will not be a major player anytime soon.

This from USA but transfers world wide ...

“We have existing fossil plants where we’ve already paid to build them and the cost of producing one more unit of electricity is cheaper from using existing infrastructure than building new infrastructure in most cases. So given that we’ve already paid the upfront cost of this fossil fuel infrastructure, the economics don’t quite line up yet where we’re going to facilitate a rapid phase out of fossil fuel plants prior to the end of their life cycle.”

"But the solutions will require massive investments to develop and build the needed infrastructure."

“If you retire the natural gas plants sooner, rates will rise,” says Langer. “It’s either going to come out of your taxes or it’s going to come into your electricity bills.”

https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/

[Longwood50]

Maybe electric vehicles make sense but I don't think that all of the unintended consequences of an entire electric car fleet.  First the mining of lithium is very dirty and certain countries such as Afghanistan and China are have major reserves.  They are hardly the most friendly to the Western world.  Second, electricity comes from someplace.  In the USA coal, 40%, natural gas, 40%, Nuclear 10%, and wind/solar/hydro electric only 10%.  If you boost the amount of electricity needed where are you going to get it from?  More coal or natural gas?  That is just substituting the carbon emissions from being burned at the plant versus the tail pipe.  Third, cars in accidents will have battery spills.  The batteries will spill hazardous materials.  Gas is quickly evaporated.  Not so with lithium that sinks into the soil or is washed into the streams and rivers from roadway accidents. Fourth, I can think of nothing more polluting than the manufacture of and potential recycle/disposal of spent batteries.  So is the world trading one form of pollution for another.  Finally, unless and until their is a way to charge on cross country trips quickly people will be forced to have two cars.  One electric and one gas for larger passenger needs and to ensure they can go thousands of kilometers without getting stuck.   Charging speed is improving, however I just can't see myself parked for 30 minutes or more while traveling at a charging stations.   If you have only a handful of cars having 10 chargers at a station is quite of few.  If everyone on the road is electric, do you have a queue at the charging station each waiting 30 minutes or more to charge?  Finally, eventually all of those batteries will die and the cars either scrapped or replacement batteries installed.  That means that the residual value of an electric car will go down exponentially as the car ages.  You can rebuild a car engine and extend the life.  You can not rebuild your own battery. 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I think the ROI you have quoted is for DIY installations that also use grid power at night. I am planning just such an installation. 

 

In any event, I agree that solar is great, but you have to enough area to support it. Most people do not. I would bet that not 5% of the population of Bangkok proper have enough area to provide even enough power to get through the day, much less charge batteries for overnight. 

Only need 33 m²   for the actual panels, (40 m² of actually roof more than enough) that's for 6.3kw of 455kw (14) panels, and should provide more than enough for average person's daytime use.  We'll probably add 3 more panel, on the original 14 planned.   We're actually going with a Hybrid Inverter (7.5kw system) w/5.8kw ESS for overnight.  Basically 'off grid', but still connected, and hopefully just paying the 41 baht a month PEA access charge ????  Have no desire to give them one more baht for electric, now that battery systems are getting priced more realistically, almost.  Until the next wave of new tech is mass produced.

 

Our PEA bills now, for rental townhouse, poor construction / insulation, is about 650kw (฿3000) , on average a month.  That's only 1 AC unit.  Our old house, had 3 running, 12-18 hrs, and we hit 1200 @ ฿5000 more than a few times.  New house will have 2 inverter units, with only 1 running at a time, and wee one is done Uni and living in another province. Old house we ran at least 2, sometimes 3 AC units 12-18 hrs a day.  So should be able to keep electric down to < 1000 a month, hopefully.  Although with solar, I really won't care any more.  The more we use it, the quicker the ROI ????

Edited October 8, 2021 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Only need 33 m²   for the actual panels, (40 m² of actually roof more than enough) that's for 6.3kw of 455kw (14) panels, and should provide more than enough for average person's daytime use. 

Yeah, virtually no one in a condo has that much roof area.

 

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

We'll probably add 3 more panel, on the original 14 planned.   We're actually going with a Hybrid Inverter (7.5kw system) w/5.8kw ESS for overnight.  Basically 'off grid', but still connected, and hopefully just paying the 41 baht a month PEA access charge ????  Have no desire to give them one more baht for electric, now that battery systems are getting priced more realistically, almost.  Until the next wave of new tech is mass produced.

So what is the total cost of the installation? I have 120m^2 of roof and about 100 of that I think I can use. 

 

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Our PEA bills now, for rental townhouse, poor construction / insulation, is about 650kw (฿3000) , on average a month.  That's only 1 AC unit.  Our old house, had 3 running, 12-18 hrs, and we hit 1200 @ ฿5000 more than a few times.  New house will have 2 inverter units, with only 1 running at a time, and wee one is done Uni and living in another province. Old house we ran at least 2, sometimes 3 AC units 12-18 hrs a day.  So should be able to keep electric down to < 1000 a month, hopefully.  Although with solar, I really won't care any more.  The more we use it, the quicker the ROI ????

Inverters are great, but don't undersize them. I have 7 air conditioners and my bill is about 7K a month. I'm sure my kid is half that....he's in uni now, but home and online now due to covid....

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, seedy said:

This is the reason that solar/wind will not be a major player anytime soon.

This from USA but transfers world wide ...

“We have existing fossil plants where we’ve already paid to build them and the cost of producing one more unit of electricity is cheaper from using existing infrastructure than building new infrastructure in most cases. So given that we’ve already paid the upfront cost of this fossil fuel infrastructure, the economics don’t quite line up yet where we’re going to facilitate a rapid phase out of fossil fuel plants prior to the end of their life cycle.”

"But the solutions will require massive investments to develop and build the needed infrastructure."

“If you retire the natural gas plants sooner, rates will rise,” says Langer. “It’s either going to come out of your taxes or it’s going to come into your electricity bills.”

https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/

So solar is really only cheaper if you do not include the capital investment required to produce it. I think it fair to say that most everyone would agree that sunlight is cheaper than oil. 

 

That's like saying it cheaper to drive a Tesla than it is to take the bus. It's true, as long as you don't have to pay for the Tesla...

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Yes, that would be my choice if can get in/out comfortably.  Wasn't available when we bought the MG ZS last year.  The ZS EV has a ฿500k premium price to it, which I thought was a bit silly, ฿700 vs ฿1.2 M.  EP has 100 km more range also ????

 

We're out & about quite a bit, that and the premium price kept us from the ZS EV.  Now, past year or so, they've been expanding the charging station network.  Not sure how that works, but being out & about wouldn't seem to be a problem now.

How long does it take to charge at a station, and how much does it cost? 

[Rampant Rabbit]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:45 AM, LarrySR said:

One can always spot the Fox viewers in the social media comments. Clueless.

Go check the comments of the Fox YouTube channel if you want to see how isolated from reality they really are.

Youre   not up in your electric  jumbo jet yet then?

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

You're  not up in your electric  jumbo jet yet then?

Any moment now....the "scientists" have almost completed the dream phase and are moving into the pre-planning phase, but those pesky engineers are insisting they include the size and weight of the batteries into the calculations. They have reached something of a compromise wherein the "scientists" can keep the swimming pool, but they can't use the solar panels on the engineers car-park to heat it.

 

They are very close, but the only thing they all really agree on is that they need more federal funding....

[Rampant Rabbit]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Any moment now....the "scientists" have almost completed the dream phase and are moving into the pre-planning phase, but those pesky engineers are insisting they include the size and weight of the batteries into the calculations. They have reached something of a compromise wherein the "scientists" can keep the swimming pool, but they can't use the solar panels on the engineers car-park to heat it.

 

They are very close, but the only thing they all really agree on is that they need more federal funding....

and  about 60 times the energy density and the simple FOX FACT ( wel I had to throw  that in)  that burning fuel = less  weight with fossil fuels as the miles increase whereas  batteries for flight = dead weight all the way

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So what is the total cost of the installation? I have 120m^2 of roof and about 100 of that I think I can use. 

 

 

Msg sent, I'm located PKK province

Edited October 8, 2021 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

and  about 60 times the energy density and the simple FOX FACT ( wel I had to throw  that in)  that burning fuel = less  weight with fossil fuels as the miles increase whereas  batteries for flight = dead weight all the way

Per the "scientists", the new technology batteries will incorporate upsidaisium in the construction, actually making them lighter than air. This technology will actually provide additional lift, reducing the total amount of energy used. Unfortunately this is still in the "dream" phase, and desperately needs additional federal funding to advance to the pre-planning phase...

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

How long does it take to charge at a station, and how much does it cost? 

Since opted out of EV (car) didn't get that far into researching.  Scooter will  be charged at home on solar, so irrelevant how long or how much, and slow charging is always better.  Advert for 1 scooter I'm thinking about, 72v50Ah battery states about ฿5 for full charge.  What a full charge is, not sure, but I'd only go from 20% back up to 80%, for better longevity of battery.

 

Think some cars advertise they can fast charge 30-60 minutes, and haven't a clue how much at a charging station.  Would think it varies depending who owns.

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Msg sent, I'm located PKK province

Thanks, I'll contact them.

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Since opted out of EV (car) didn't get that far into researching.  Scooter will  be charged at home on solar, so irrelevant how long or how much, and slow charging is always better.  Advert for 1 scooter I'm thinking about, 72v50Ah battery states about ฿5 for full charge.  What a full charge is, not sure, but I'd only go from 20% back up to 80%, for better longevity of battery.

 

Think some cars advertise they can fast charge 30-60 minutes, and haven't a clue how much at a charging station.  Would think it varies depending who owns.

I know a lot of places have them free, but that can't last as they start loading up...

[seedy]

Our PEA bill 600 - 700 THB per month.

Payback from solar will be a LONG time.

 

 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Thanks, I'll contact them.

I didn't use them, but pretty sure my installer gets the components from them.  Use this site also, better component descriptions, and for some ballpark pricing, not much different than local vendor or Aussie pricing.  A bit cheaper than OZ pricing as China closer & less import tax.

https://www.solaxpower.com/

 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, seedy said:

Our PEA bill 600 - 700 THB per month.

Payback from solar will be a LONG time.

 

 

Depends on system, on or off grid, for just day use or night or both.   If working couple, then daytime use would be minimal, along with night time use (less AC), but expensive battery storage.  Use system daytime to charge battery for night, along with weekend usage.  Might be hard to justify the initial investment.  ROI eventually worth it, but as stated, may take a while, and if not staying in home long term, maybe not.

 

We're home 24/7 w/18 hrs of AC going, unless out & about.  I calculated our ROI at about 5.5 yrs, if really abusive, to 9 yrs, if not so abusive.   I like just not paying PEA's silly rate, almost for spite .... PRICELESS

[LarrySR]

1 hour ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Youre   not up in your electric  jumbo jet yet then?

Do you have Fox on your cable TV?

Symptoms of a toxic level of exposure are, developmental delay, learning difficulties & irritability.

Edited October 8, 2021 by LarrySR

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, LarrySR said:

Do you have Fox on your cable TV?

Symptoms of a toxic level of exposure are, developmental delay, learning difficulties & irritability.

Still waiting for a link to one of the "press releases" you claim big oil puts out daily.....

 

Unless you were lying, which of course I am sure you were not. I don't doubt for a moment those links are forthcoming, as I can't imagine someone as well informed as you would have to resort to making stuff up...

[Rampant Rabbit]

2 hours ago, LarrySR said:

Do you have Fox on your cable TV?

Symptoms of a toxic level of exposure are, developmental delay, learning difficulties & irritability.

Hate to disappoint you I dont have a tv, guess youre  not up to speed  on the latest viewing tech, dont worry youll  feel  better  soon

Edited October 8, 2021 by Rampant Rabbit

[LarrySR]

9 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Hate to disappoint you I dont have a tv, guess youre  not up to speed  on the latest viewing tech, dont worry youll  feel  better  soon

Ok, then perhaps mum served you dinner on contaminated lead glazed pottery from Mexico. That would also explain things. 

Concentrations of lead can result in a decline in cognitive function and reasoning.

You should get that checked out. 

 

[sirineou]

5 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

Ok, then perhaps mum served you dinner on contaminated lead glazed pottery from Mexico. That would also explain things. 

Concentrations of lead can result in a decline in cognitive function and reasoning.

You should get that checked out. 

 

I think it's mostly  the affect those red lead lined MAGA hats that though very effective at shielding those pesky NSA surveillance signals, must have other unforeseen consequences     

[sirineou]

If you are buying an electric vehicle to save money on gas, ask yourself, How much gas can you buy with the extra money you spend to get that EV.