2 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

 

The point is, Delta is dominant everywhere except SA, Botswana and HK up to early November and still is in UK and most all countries, so UK's is no different than DK, Austria, etc with Delta infections and deaths, but UK may have more deaths and infections as leaky vaccines and waning VE are taking place. Look at the curves the past 12 months or from June (delta), SA had primarily Delta and managed much better with much lower vaccine rates than UK and most of Europe. That is the point that you try to ignore but is fact based now. Vaccines don't prevent infections and illness despite what you think now, hope is now this 3rd dose booster idea does not <deleted> out after 3 months as well. Omicron, despite evading mRNA injections seems milder in symptoms and illness. Time will tell, but to sit here and gaslight that UK is having to deal with Delta as an excuse for their mismanaged covid management strategies and low VE vaccines and out of control infection rates in vaxxed and unvaxxed is intellectually incoherent when the entire globe has delta as the predominate variant. You are intent on creating confusion for others here, nothing more.

And the other comment about UK data "handling" compared to SA is another laughable attempt of yours to deflect and obfuscate. 555, so I laugh now.

Vaccines reduce infections, serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

The reason for the Delta v Omicron disparity between SA and the UK/Denmark/Austria is the highly infectious Omicron originated in Africa and has established itself in SA, it has only just arrived in the UK, Denmark and Austria but it is rapidly gaining ground.

 

There is no such thing as a ‘leaky vaccine’.

 

As has repeatedly been pointed out to you, the conditions surrounding the spread of this virus and its variants are significantly different between SA and the UK, or anywhere else in Northern Europe or Scandinavia.

 

Now, what was it you were saying about ‘intellectually incoherent’?

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

Denmark’s vaccines were doing great until Omicron hit.

Vaccines have done great everywhere, saving countless people from serious illness, hospitalization and death, plus all the associated medical costs and human grief.

I didn’t say a thing about “165 deaths”. Misquoted. I DID indicate that data from shotholes (like SA) is in no way comparable to UK data. 

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Vaccines reduce infections, serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

The reason for the Delta v Omicron disparity between SA and the UK/Denmark/Austria is the highly infectious Omicron originated in Africa and has established itself in SA, it has only just arrived in the UK, Denmark and Austria but it is rapidly gaining ground.

 

There is no such thing as a ‘leaky vaccine’.

 

As has repeatedly been pointed out to you, the conditions surrounding the spread of this virus and its variants are significantly different between SA and the UK, or anywhere else in Northern Europe or Scandinavia.

 

Now, what was it you were saying about ‘intellectually incoherent’?

Wasting your time. anybody using / promoting understated political “data” from S.A., a corrupt unaccountable nation, is clearly unreasonable ( as evidenced here) so can be ignored or dismissed. 

5 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Vaccines are up to 90% effective in protecting against Delta infection

For how long-until they don't and you need a 3rd dose booster, followed by a 4th dose as in Israel. Read the studies, protection wanes to unprotected levels and certainly don't curtail the spread.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2118468

Just now, fjb 24 said:

Delta infection

Omicron is taking over, SA is 100%, other countries have new omicron now. Vaccines are almost useless against omicron, especially AZ. You need to look beyond current mRNA, into 2nd gen vaccines.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1242896-astrazeneca-offers-no-protection-against-omicron-after-100-days/

An inflammatory post removed.  Keep it civil or face a suspension.  

 

Here's a little more information on what some experts predict regarding the need for boosters:

Will we always need Covid-19 boosters? Experts have theories

 

With the world facing the latest in a seemingly endless stream of coronavirus variants — and with bullish talk from manufacturers about a need for even more vaccine shots — you wouldn’t be alone if you were wondering: Are Covid boosters always going to be a fixture in our future?

The simple truth is that, at this point, there’s no definitive answer to that question. 

But virologists, immunologists, and vaccinologists have opinions that are anchored in an understanding of how the immune system works and in emerging data on how Covid vaccines engage with this complicated enterprise that has evolved to help humans fend off disease threats. 

 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/15/will-we-always-need-covid-19-boosters-experts-have-theories/

A study that has not yet been peer reviewed, and could explain why Omicron is so transmissible and also less deadly,

but it's not all positive. 

 

https://www.med.hku.hk/en/news/press/20211215-omicron-sars-cov-2-infection

 

They found that the novel Omicron variant replicates faster than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and Delta variant in the human bronchus. At 24 hours after infection, the Omicron variant replicated around 70 times higher than the Delta variant and the original SARS-CoV-2 virus. In contrast, the Omicron variant replicated less efficiently (more than 10 times lower) in the human lung tissue than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus, which may suggest lower severity of disease.

 

‘It is also noted that, by infecting many more people, a very infectious virus may cause more severe disease and death even though the virus itself may be less pathogenic.

9 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Wasting your time. anybody using / promoting understated political “data” from S.A., a corrupt unaccountable nation, is clearly unreasonable ( as evidenced here) so can be ignored or dismissed. 

Calling out broadcasted misinformation and misrepresentation of facts is never a waste of time.

6 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Omicron is taking over, SA is 100%, other countries have new omicron now. Vaccines are almost useless against omicron, especially AZ. You need to look beyond current mRNA, into 2nd gen vaccines.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1242896-astrazeneca-offers-no-protection-against-omicron-after-100-days/

The suggestion that a single variant of an infectious virus accounts for 100% is already good cause to question the data.

 

Your claim that the vaccines are almost useless against the Omicron variant is misleading.

 

“The preliminary data about omicron and vaccines is coming in quickly and is revealing lower vaccine effectiveness. Best estimates suggest vaccines are around 30%-40% effective at preventing infections and 70% effective at preventing severe disease.”

 

https://theconversation.com/how-effective-are-vaccines-against-omicron-an-epidemiologist-answers-6-questions-173554

 

And of course there is a need for the ‘next generation’ vaccine, the virus evolves and the vaccines are modified to suit.

 

If you have a better option than vaccination, let’s hear what it is.

 

7 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

For how long-until they don't and you need a 3rd dose booster, followed by a 4th dose as in Israel. Read the studies, protection wanes to unprotected levels and certainly don't curtail the spread.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2118468

Regardless, the vaccines already in use have saved countless people from infection, serious illness, hospitalization and death, and too the associated costs and human grief.

 

From your linked article:

 

“People who have been naturally infected with SARS-CoV-2 can also be naturally reinfected, as has been shown with endemic coronaviruses, influenza viruses, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and many other respiratory viruses.”

 

To remind you, this is the natural immunity you frequently refer to, and the same natural immunity obtained by the extremely risky means of infection.

 

If you have a better option than vaccination, let’s hear what it is.

 

7 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Omicron is taking over, SA is 100%, other countries have new omicron now. Vaccines are almost useless against omicron, especially AZ. You need to look beyond current mRNA, into 2nd gen vaccines.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1242896-astrazeneca-offers-no-protection-against-omicron-after-100-days/

Yeah, we got it, you don’t like vaccines, and would prefer to die with Covid with 100% pure blood.

 

The rest of us are vaccinated and, if necessary, will take whatever boosters are necessary to prevent Omicron infection. It’s just common sense.

From the Daily Wail, Omicron really looks like a heavy cold!

 

 

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

From the Daily Wail, Omicron really looks like a heavy cold!

 

 

Well, the Daily 'Wail' is not considered a very reliable source of information. 

 

Early and preliminary data does seem to indicate it is milder, but until there is some rather large data samples to compare those getting this variant by age, vaccine status, preexisting conditions, I tend to be cautiously optimistic.  

 

The fact that it spreads so quickly means huge numbers could be out of commission at the same time.  In New York City restaurants have been forced to close because so many employees were sick with the variant. 

 

EXPONENTIAL GROWTH is a dizzying thing. In the week to December 8th Britain saw 536 new cases of covid-19 ascribed to the Omicron variant, less than 0.5% of the number caused by the dominant Delta variant. But the week before there had been only 32 cases of Omicron—and by December 14th the case number was over 10,000. Omicron looks set to become the country’s dominant strain in terms of cases before advent calendars run out of windows.

 

https://www.economist.com/international/2021/12/18/the-omicron-variant-advances-at-an-incredible-rate

 

This variant may not be a long ride, but it is going to be an intense one. 

45 minutes ago, Crossy said:

From the Daily Wail, Omicron really looks like a heavy cold!

 

 

Scientists in London where it is now the main variant have been monitoring this and report that it is presenting like a severe cold much the same as Delta had evolved into for those who were vaccinated. The caveat is that this is in vaccinated people, whats its like in unvaccinated?

 

Watch the vid here, interesting:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-most-cases-now-like-severe-cold-and-omicron-appears-to-produce-fairly-mild-illness-expert-says-12497094

It's important to distinguish between milder cases and a milder virus.  Eric Topol, director and professor of Molecular Medicine at The Scripps Research Institute said in an interview today: (1 min watch)

 

 

"We have no evidence that the virus itself is more mild, until we have that, we have to assume that people who don't have any protection are highly vulnerable to getting very ill."

17 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Denmark’s vaccines were doing great until Omicron hit.

And now they're doing ok, provided you keep up with boosters when required.  Certainly, they still prevent severe infection.

 

 

I see vaccination against covid19 as a form of insurance against severe illness and death.  And happily, they all seem to be good in this key aspect, to the extent that for reasonably healthy people the vaccines are almost a banker.

 

Sadly, they aren't that good for that long at doing anything else, even Pfizer.

 

The way it is now, with Omicron set to wreak havoc, most established arguments versus this or that vaccine are utterly moot.

 

A lot of people need to change their mindset- particularly the silver bulleters.

 

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I see vaccination against covid19 as a form of insurance against severe illness and death.  And happily, they all seem to be good in this key aspect, to the extent that for reasonably healthy people the vaccines are almost a banker.

 

Sadly, they aren't that good for that long at doing anything else, even Pfizer.

 

The way it is now, with Omicron set to wreak havoc, most established arguments versus this or that vaccine are utterly moot.

 

A lot of people need to change their mindset- particularly the silver bulleters.

 

You are making predictions based on little or no data.

 

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

From the Daily Wail, Omicron really looks like a heavy cold!

 

 

So a fever is not even in the top 5 of symptoms of any variant?    Remind me again why we are getting our temperature tested in every single shop...  

On 12/15/2021 at 7:30 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I've already stated my preferred option a few times, but apparently you missed them.

I'd provide isolation support for the actually vulnerable if they wished to isolate, and provided information to the populace as how to protect themselves, then done what Sweden did initially.

 

Interesting interview with an Australian NSW journalist on the radio this morning. He said basically that the citizens of Sydney are so over covid, and are back to normal as much as possible- businesses open, no masks no checking/ QR codes etc.

25,000 positive cases a day, but he says low numbers in ICU, hospitalizations steady.

He said NSW had spent 60 BILLION $ on covid.

He also said what I've been saying, "should have got back to normal much earlier".

 

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/easing-covid-19-restrictions/opening-in-dec

 

 

NSW has also apparently given up on penalising the unvaccinated. Pity the NZ government isn't as enightened. NZ government has IMO embarked on a campaign to create a divided country. The "team of 5 million" is well and truly gone.

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/nsw-covid-restrictions-to-ease-on-december-15-changes-to-masks-check-ins-unvaccinated-freedoms-c-4923081

The changes - which came into effect on Wednesday, December 15 - see restrictions align for all, regardless of vaccination status.

 

No doubt many will disagree with him ( and me ), but the government response has IMO caused more problems for the future than a less draconian response would have.

The numbers of people I know that "dislike" government is certainly higher now than before corona happened.

 

 

Agree - creating ruin and chaos for so many was shameful and deluded - we'll always be a step behind this virus as it's impossible to predict where and when a variant will emerge, then equally in the dark as to what it will look like. Targeting vaccines is made almost impossible as by the time said vaccine is developed, tested, approved and then produced on any scale, the virus it has been 'tweaked'  to combat is probably less of an issue and a different one or more has emerged. Vaccines are a useful tool but will only ever be a partial remedy against a perpetually mutating virus such as corona. We only need look at how the corona virus that causes common colds is so wiry and difficult to remedy

 

As you say, isolate the vulnerable as effectively as humanly possible, then the rest must carry on in the productive endeavours that fund not just their own and their children's live but fund the social care and treatment of those now non-productive in the economic sense.

 

Life is a risk and numerous things we do knowingly imperil us and to me it's extraordinary that this one risk, which in reality isn't a huge risk to most, is given such extraordinary focus when health statistics globally elucidate on the fact that health services have been put under pressure for decades with alarming levels of obesity related illnesses of very serious consequence, as well as smoking related, alcohol related...

 

IMO opinion we can do as much as is humanly possible for now but the best chance was lost at the genesis of this. I remember hearing about this 'new virus' living on Bali and for weeks or even months after Chinese visitors continued arriving on Bali (and everywhere else obviously.)   I remember one of the staff at the villa asked me why 'they' didn't stop them coming to my island?'  

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You are making predictions based on little or no data.

 

Confused?!

 

 

3 hours ago, Oblomov said:

Agree - creating ruin and chaos for so many was shameful and deluded - we'll always be a step behind this virus as it's impossible to predict where and when a variant will emerge, then equally in the dark as to what it will look like. Targeting vaccines is made almost impossible as by the time said vaccine is developed, tested, approved and then produced on any scale, the virus it has been 'tweaked'  to combat is probably less of an issue and a different one or more has emerged. Vaccines are a useful tool but will only ever be a partial remedy against a perpetually mutating virus such as corona. We only need look at how the corona virus that causes common colds is so wiry and difficult to remedy

 

As you say, isolate the vulnerable as effectively as humanly possible, then the rest must carry on in the productive endeavours that fund not just their own and their children's live but fund the social care and treatment of those now non-productive in the economic sense.

 

Life is a risk and numerous things we do knowingly imperil us and to me it's extraordinary that this one risk, which in reality isn't a huge risk to most, is given such extraordinary focus when health statistics globally elucidate on the fact that health services have been put under pressure for decades with alarming levels of obesity related illnesses of very serious consequence, as well as smoking related, alcohol related...

 

IMO opinion we can do as much as is humanly possible for now but the best chance was lost at the genesis of this. I remember hearing about this 'new virus' living on Bali and for weeks or even months after Chinese visitors continued arriving on Bali (and everywhere else obviously.)   I remember one of the staff at the villa asked me why 'they' didn't stop them coming to my island?'  

You completely ignore the fact that even with lockdowns and society wide public health measures COVID has still hospitalized people at such a rate as to push health services to near breaking point.

 

But yes I get the point you and TBL are making:

 

Fight this disease by any means at all so long as those means don’t affect you.

 

Omicron update:
"South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-17/s-africa-says-hospitalizations-in-omicron-wave-much-lower

South Africa, which is all of 26% vaccinated, not only has there been no surge in Covid deaths, they are the lowest they've been in 18 months, since May 2020.

 UK as of now has reported 1 Omicron death, and it was "with" the virus. Have any other Omicron deaths been reported anywhere? I haven't seen any.

Good news--hope the media presents the news factually.

19 hours ago, Oblomov said:

We only need look at how the corona virus that causes common colds is so wiry and difficult to remedy

This is a complete misunderstanding.  Colds are caused by many different types of virus - there are literally about 200 - only about 20% of which belong the the type coronavirus. This is the major reason why "colds" evade a simple remedy - you can't develop a vaccine against hundreds of different pathogens simultaneously.

https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes

19 hours ago, Oblomov said:

Life is a risk and numerous things we do knowingly imperil us and to me it's extraordinary that this one risk, which in reality isn't a huge risk to most, is given such extraordinary focus when health statistics globally elucidate on the fact that health services have been put under pressure for decades with alarming levels of obesity related illnesses of very serious consequence, as well as smoking related, alcohol related...

This also seems to entirely miss the point. Covid is a contagious disease- you catch it from standing near other people who have it, and in turn they pass it to others, so the numbers affected continually increase as a result of the disease itself. This is why you can take simple actions (distancing, masking, vaccination) to diminish the harm Covid causes, which are generally effective.

 

Obesity is not contagious, and most (admittedly not all) of the harm done by alcohol and tobacco is also not transmissible. Obesity doesn't directly cause more obesity. Covid directly causes more Covid.

1 hour ago, codemonkey said:

Omicron update:
"South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-17/s-africa-says-hospitalizations-in-omicron-wave-much-lower

South Africa, which is all of 26% vaccinated, not only has there been no surge in Covid deaths, they are the lowest they've been in 18 months, since May 2020.

 UK as of now has reported 1 Omicron death, and it was "with" the virus. Have any other Omicron deaths been reported anywhere? I haven't seen any.

Good news--hope the media presents the news factually.

Yes the article is reporting the news, you missed this bit:

 

"Scientists have cautioned that other nations may have a different experience to South Africa as the country’s population is young compared with developed nations. Between 70% and 80% of citizens may also have had a prior Covid-19 infection, according to antibody surveys, meaning they could have some level of protection."

 

There is currently no evidence that the actual Omicron virus is milder.

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

according to antibody surveys, meaning they could have some level of protection."

Perfect, exactly what I want to hear.

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There is currently no evidence that the actual Omicron virus is milder

Yeah, so far only 1 omicron death reported in what, 5 or 6 weeks since first sequence. Pretty mild compared to Delta. You know or heard about Delta variant?

16 minutes ago, codemonkey said:

Yeah, so far only 1 omicron death reported in what, 5 or 6 weeks since first sequence. Pretty mild compared to Delta. You know or heard about Delta variant?

You truly believe there's been no deaths in South Africa due to Omicron despite the official deaths happening there daily including a 60% weekly trend increase 

 

However seeing as you've already resorted to sarcasm I'll leave it there with you..............