ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[In the jungle]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

How much petrol could you have purchased by getting a Suzuki ICE car for 318000bht, instead of your EV costing 900,000bht.

I'm thinking that 500,000bht difference would have paid for a lifetimes worth of petrol.

How much do you spend on coffee and snacks while waiting for your EV to charge?

You beat me to it.  In fact I did that calculation based on my own usage (10,000 km a year) and assuming an EV cost of 800K.  I ignored the Neta because it is a Noddy car.

 

With a purchase price of 318K for the ICE, which is what I spent, it would take me 25 years to get to 800K for cost of ICE car plus cost of fuel.  

 

Any argument that maintenance costs are higher for an ICE are offset by the fact that I have 500K in the bank earning interest whereas EV man does not.

 

I am not anti EV.  I just don't think now is the right time to buy.  EVs are so much simpler than ICE that they are bound to be a lot cheaper than ICE in time.  Perhaps in five years I will be tempted. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, In the jungle said:

You beat me to it.  In fact I did that calculation based on my own usage (10,000 km a year) and assuming an EV cost of 800K.  I ignored the Neta because it is a Noddy car.

 

With a purchase price of 318K for the ICE, which is what I spent, it would take me 25 years to get to 800K for cost of ICE car plus cost of fuel.  

 

Any argument that maintenance costs are higher for an ICE are offset by the fact that I have 500K in the bank earning interest whereas EV man does not.

 

I am not anti EV.  I just don't think now is the right time to buy.  EVs are so much simpler than ICE that they are bound to be a lot cheaper than ICE in time.  Perhaps in five years I will be tempted. 

 

 

Mango & papaya comparison  ...

... an entry level 3cyl MT ICE (338k) vs 800k EV, ex: MG EP

... SERIOUSLY, that's just ridiculous.

Advantage Celerio ... going further topped up, that's about it.

 

Celerio:

Maximum output (PS/rpm) ... 68/ 6,000

Maximum torque (Nm/rpm) ... 90/ 3,500

 

MG EP:

Maximum power (horsepower (kW))163 (120)

Maximum torque (Newton-meter)260

 

Which would you rather own, and drive for 3 -4 hrs straight ?

... nuff said

 

i recommend the Celerio, quite often, if that's what your budget dictates.  For others, buy something you actually want.

[asf6]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

EV CS ฿800 (720kms) 46.3kWh X2 X ฿8)

 

Of course, if that was 700 kms R/T, then only ฿500 for EV.

Am I right in coming to the conclusion that it costs you about 1.4 baht per km in your EV? (for charging)

[DavisH]

1 hour ago, asf6 said:

Am I right in coming to the conclusion that it costs you about 1.4 baht per km in your EV? (for charging)

That's about 500/700 = 0.7baht/km. You calculated kms/baht. 

[In the jungle]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Mango & papaya comparison  ...

... an entry level 3cyl MT ICE (338k) vs 800k EV, ex: MG EP

... SERIOUSLY, that's just ridiculous.

Advantage Celerio ... going further topped up, that's about it.

 

Celerio:

Maximum output (PS/rpm) ... 68/ 6,000

Maximum torque (Nm/rpm) ... 90/ 3,500

 

MG EP:

Maximum power (horsepower (kW))163 (120)

Maximum torque (Newton-meter)260

 

Which would you rather own, and drive for 3 -4 hrs straight ?

... nuff said

 

i recommend the Celerio, quite often, if that's what your budget dictates.  For others, buy something you actually want.

The Celerio is not what my budget dictates.  It is what meets my day to day requirements and it is not my only car.

 

For longer journeys, most commonly Bangkok, I prefer to fly.

 

My question for you is for a 500 km trip which would you prefer, an MG EP or an Airbus A320 200?

 

The Airbus takes typically 47 minutes from take off to landing and per flight it can cost as little as 700 Baht.

 

One of the reasons why I did not buy an EV this time around is because I do not want something as big as the MG EP.  Choice in the EV market here remains pretty limited.  Doubtless that will change.

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, In the jungle said:

The Celerio is not what my budget dictates.  It is what meets my day to day requirements and it is not my only car.

 

For longer journeys, most commonly Bangkok, I prefer to fly.

 

My question for you is for a 500 km trip which would you prefer, an MG EP or an Airbus A320 200?

 

The Airbus takes typically 47 minutes from take off to landing and per flight it can cost as little as 700 Baht.

 

One of the reasons why I did not buy an EV this time around is because I do not want something as big as the MG EP.  Choice in the EV market here remains pretty limited.  Doubtless that will change.

in various ways, your comparison is incorrect.

 

transport time and cost from your house to the airport, as well cost from the airport to your destination (hotel / hua hin, etc.) must be included. 

 

show me a flight for 700 baht including one piece of luggage, maybe for next week. where do you book your cheap flights ...?

 

if I fly to Bangkok, it takes around 5 hours from my house to the airport and to the hotel in downtown Bangkok. if I go to Hua Hin, it takes about 7-8 hours ... and the cost will be at least 2'500 baht per person (taxi, ticket, bus). that is only for one person, if you travel with your wife or family than it will be much more costly .... if using the car, the cost for 1-5 person is more or less the same ...

 

we all know, an ev car is not for everyone, and that is a good thing!

 

 

[In the jungle]

11 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

in various ways, your comparison is incorrect.

 

transport time and cost from your house to the airport, as well cost from the airport to your destination (hotel / hua hin, etc.) must be included. 

 

show me a flight for 700 baht including one piece of luggage, maybe for next week. where do you book your cheap flights ...?

 

if I fly to Bangkok, it takes around 5 hours from my house to the airport and to the hotel in downtown Bangkok. if I go to Hua Hin, it takes about 7-8 hours ... and the cost will be at least 2'500 baht per person (taxi, ticket, bus). that is only for one person, if you travel with your wife or family than it will be much more costly .... if using the car, the cost for 1-5 person is more or less the same ...

 

we all know, an ev car is not for everyone, and that is a good thing!

 

 

You will not get a flight for 700 Baht if you want to fly next week. 

 

700 Baht was the price I got for 10 May when I checked, I think, three days ago.  7kg luggage is what you get for that price.  Adding 20 extra kg increases the price by about 500 Baht.

 

Normally I use Air Asia but Nok flies the same route.  The airport is 25 minutes from my house.  Total journey time door to door is about three hours.

 

I have never said an EV is not for me.  Rather there is nothing on the Thai market right now that I would buy.  No doubt that will change.

[In the jungle]

Another reason why I would not buy an EV right now is weight.

 

I have a firm preference for cars that are light.  Most of the cars I have owned have been under 1000 kg.

 

To take one EV example, and honest I am not picking on you Khun LA, the MG EP weighs 1574 kg.  That is 789 kg heavier than my daily driver.

 

As energy density improves weight will come down.

[In the jungle]

Maybe I could accept 1200 kg for an EV as weight distribution and c of g are much better.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, In the jungle said:

The Celerio is not what my budget dictates.  It is what meets my day to day requirements and it is not my only car.

 

For longer journeys, most commonly Bangkok, I prefer to fly.

 

My question for you is for a 500 km trip which would you prefer, an MG EP or an Airbus A320 200?

 

The Airbus takes typically 47 minutes from take off to landing and per flight it can cost as little as 700 Baht.

 

One of the reasons why I did not buy an EV this time around is because I do not want something as big as the MG EP.  Choice in the EV market here remains pretty limited.  Doubtless that will change.

I drive all over TH, rarely if ever fly.   I actually enjoy driving, and wouldn't never put my dog on a plane.  To much hassle to fly now of days, and you can't take anything with you, and I'll need a car when I get there anyway.

 

Besides being cost effective for 2 adults & dog.  Stress out my dog in a cage, in TH heat...no love there.  

 

Prefer the ZS over the EP, for the same reason, shorter length.  I do agree, the EV market is limited  MG needs to come out  with a <600k MG3 EV, or one of them with stripped down EV truck, <800k.   All vehicles, ICEs & EVs are just silly priced.    Cars costing as much as houses, that's nuts.

 

Kudos to Suzuki for offering up a 416k AT for around town.

 

Wt. not really a factor and I actually prefer heavier.  As long not too much.

 

ZS ICE vs EV wt.  1290 vs 1570 kg

 

I hit a little import with a New Yorker years back, dented up the front of my car, sent the little one spinning into a wall, and they all got banged up inside.  ???? No airbags or seat belts.

[BKKBike09]

14 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

You won’t keep up with an MG, BYD or Tesla BEV from any traffic light.

 

I wouldn’t want to drive 700km without at least one, preferably two coffee breaks, and that’s long enough to charge most BEV’s.

 

You have to drive one to appreciate the lack of NVH (Noise, Vibration & Harshness) which according to science is the main cause of driver fatigue.

Yep, BEV instant torque is hard to beat. I also agree fully with your comment about having to drive one to appreciate the lack of noise, vibration and harshness, and how relaxing that it. Commuting to work in the Atto in BKK is much more pleasant than in my Scirocco (which does about 2-4 km/l in heavy traffic).

 

However ... I still think that 'on the road' charging is an issue and will probably get worse, not better, over the next 1-2 years as more and more EVs compete for chargers. Just going by my experience charging my Atto in Pattaya. DC chargers are few and far between and there's invariably someone else using them if you just roll up. I know PTT has a booking system, but that can mean at least 60-90 minutes of the day gone (time to drive to/from charger + charging time).

 

The problem on a journey from say BKK to Chiang Mai or Phuket by road will be that everyone will start with 100% charge and then want to stop for a break/charge at roughly the same time / distance. So certain charger locations will always be much more in demand than others.

 

EVs still can't compete with ICE in terms of convenience of fueling and I'm not sure that's going to change much in the near future (next 5 years).

 

[BKKBike09]

It's also going to be interesting to see how the myriad of EVs that have hit the roads in Bangkok in the past 6 months are going to fare in the rainy season. My soi frequently gets flooded to +30 cm or more. That was never fun in a low-slung car like a Scirocco. I did ponder on this quite hard before buying the Atto and am still quite apprehensive. We shall see ... 

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

My soi frequently gets flooded to +30 cm or more. That was never fun in a low-slung car like a Scirocco. I did ponder on this quite hard before buying the Atto and am still quite apprehensive. We shall see ... 

EV's will never compete with ICE as quick top up over the road.  That's just not going happen.   If we only did O&A on weekends, then I'd strongly would have reconsidered keeping the ZS ICE.   Retired, so we pick & choose when to travel.

 

Flooding is irrelevant 'for me', as I won't drive either, ICE or EV through flooded streets, whether they say you can or not, and thankfully, never need to.    If that was an issue, I'd own something built for it, with sealed wheel bearings ????

[JBChiangRai]

9 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

However ... I still think that 'on the road' charging is an issue and will probably get worse, not better, over the next 1-2 years as more and more EVs compete for chargers. Just going by my experience charging my Atto in Pattaya. DC chargers are few and far between and there's invariably someone else using them if you just roll up. I know PTT has a booking system, but that can mean at least 60-90 minutes of the day gone (time to drive to/from charger + charging time).

 

The problem on a journey from say BKK to Chiang Mai or Phuket by road will be that everyone will start with 100% charge and then want to stop for a break/charge at roughly the same time / distance. So certain charger locations will always be much more in demand than others.

 

I agree with you thar charging is probably going to get worse as supply of new BEV cars outstrips supply of DC CS.

 

I don't know about Pattaya, it's more than 10 years since I visited, but I do know about DC CS's on long runs like the ones you mentioned.  We are currently in the golden age of owning a BEV, there is an abundance of DC CS's on the roads for those undertaking long journeys, I have rarely seen another car at a DC CS.

 

 

In the last year Chiang Rai city has gone from no DC CS's to 5 that I know of, probably more.  I often drive past a few of them and I've never seen one being used, also in the last couple of months Central Mall has installed some CS's DC or AC, I don't know which as I haven't seen them close up.  Central Festival Chiang Mai has added fast DC CS's.  But I question the need for DC CS's in cities, generally, people charge their BEV's at home or on a road trip.  I think the current issue is Condominium's, my friend is involved with 3 units at Pattaya, Rayong & Chiang Rai and they don't seem to be doing anything about it. I think there are a lot of BEV haters out there because they live in condos and they are practically excluded from BEV ownership.  My aforementioned friend canceled his MG EP+ order when it arrived because of frustration at all 3 of his condos with committees that are clueless about the BEV revolution.

[KhunLA]

9 hours ago, asf6 said:

Am I right in coming to the conclusion that it costs you about 1.4 baht per km in your EV? (for charging)

Closer to ฿1 per km.  It would cost about ฿370 for full charge, and we can get 370 kms from that.   Battery is 46.3kWh (usable), and CS are about ฿7.5 per kWh, round up to ฿8 for tax if not included.

 

I usually top up around 250-270 kms, and car usually tells me we have another 100 kms in reserve, so a good ballpark, and makes for easy math ????

 

That's 3-4 hrs on TH roads, so we're ready for a stop, especially the wife & dog.

[macahoom]

 

I did a 800km round trip a few days ago.

 

Both PEA and EV Pluz (PTT) were 6.9 baht per unit, on-peak. The previous few times I used them, the price was 7.5 baht.

[In the jungle]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I drive all over TH, rarely if ever fly.   I actually enjoy driving, and wouldn't never put my dog on a plane.  To much hassle to fly now of days, and you can't take anything with you, and I'll need a car when I get there anyway.

 

Besides being cost effective for 2 adults & dog.  Stress out my dog in a cage, in TH heat...no love there.  

 

Prefer the ZS over the EP, for the same reason, shorter length.  I do agree, the EV market is limited  MG needs to come out  with a <600k MG3 EV, or one of them with stripped down EV truck, <800k.   All vehicles, ICEs & EVs are just silly priced.    Cars costing as much as houses, that's nuts.

 

Kudos to Suzuki for offering up a 416k AT for around town.

 

Wt. not really a factor and I actually prefer heavier.  As long not too much.

 

ZS ICE vs EV wt.  1290 vs 1570 kg

 

I hit a little import with a New Yorker years back, dented up the front of my car, sent the little one spinning into a wall, and they all got banged up inside.  ???? No airbags or seat belts.

We all have different tastes and requirements and I am sure your MG EP suits yours.

 

After reading your final paragraph I am going to get a nervous twitch every time I see an MG EP behind me ????

[transam]

15 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I guess everybody's different. I've driven my MG ZS on a number of long drives (typically, over 700 km at a time) and found it eminently comfortable. Much more so than the Isuzu SUV that I used to do the same kinds of trips in before.

 

Never needed a cushion and nor did anyone else travelling with me (I usually have three other adults in the car).

I suppose bum sizes can be different........????

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

We all have different tastes and requirements and I am sure your MG EP suits yours.

 

After reading your final paragraph I am going to get a nervous twitch every time I see an MG EP behind me ????

We have the ZS.

 

They were drunk & drugged up, pulled out in front of me, from a one way street, the wrong way.   Barely touched the brakes, and hit them full force.  Contact their front driver side, all the way to driver's door, and sent them spinning back to street they came out of, landing against the corner building.   Was sure I killed someone.   Scared the sh!t out of me, till ran over to the car, and realize their drugged state.   Probably saved their life, as no snapped necks.  Kind of funny after that ... dumbAsses.

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

EV's will never compete with ICE as quick top up over the road.  That's just not going happen. 

From what I've read, there seems a good chance that it will. A number of researchers are working on ultra fast-charging battery technology.

 

Here's one example.

 

Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced

 

As the article states:

 

Quote

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time.

And here's another, even better-performing battery technology.

 

Revolutionary New Electric Vehicle Battery Charges in 3 Minutes and Lasts 20 Years

[KhunLA]

That's an awesome price for the MG5, and actually surprisingly low, considering the MG3's price points (฿519k-฿629k).  Although .... Drivetrain spec'd about the same as MG3.

 

MG3 might be getting phased out in TH, as not listed on main site any more and have to specifically Google MG3, along with enquire about quote ???

 

Why you'll notice so many MGs on the road ????  Impressive for only being in TH for <10 yrs, I think.  Amazing growth & network of dealers & CSs.

 

IF driving 180k kms/8yrs, (length of battery warranty), then you would at least be at break even point with petrol savings vs ZS EV @ ฿475K saved.

฿115k in the pocket on petrol savings alone.

949-589=360 + 475  = ฿115

 

IF buying the MG EP @ ฿771, you'd way ahead. 

771-589=182 + 475 savings = plus side of ฿293k saved on petrol over price difference alone, not counting tune ups & oil changes.

 

I'm a Yank, and I always calculate things based on TH vs TH.   Other countries are irrelevant, in every aspect.

[driver52]

45 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

IF buying the MG EP

i must admit I quite like the look of that new ES model.......the EP looks like a 'grandad car' in comparison lol

why are they doing 2 models that are based on the same body?

 

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, driver52 said:

i must admit I quite like the look of that new ES model.......the EP looks like a 'grandad car' in comparison lol

why are they doing 2 models that are based on the same body?

 

Yea, that's a head scratcher, especially for a bit more ฿฿฿

 

I think they realized the EP Plus was underpriced, after the competition started showing up.

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, macahoom said:

 

I did a 800km round trip a few days ago.

 

Both PEA and EV Pluz (PTT) were 6.9 baht per unit, on-peak. The previous few times I used them, the price was 7.5 baht.

I always use 'negative' #s, as surely someone will point out, I'm 1/2 baht off and being deceitful.  We've yet to pay ฿8 per kWh, I think.

 

I also use ฿37 for petrol, which it hasn't been for some time.  Unless it came down after the Songkran 'freeze' ????

 

Surely they won't point that out.  And at a half ฿ times 12k-13k-14k liters, that adds up over my usual 180k/8yr costs.

 

EVs aren't for everyone, but the overall operating cost savings are very real, if not buying a new car every few years.

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, driver52 said:

i must admit I quite like the look of that new ES model.......the EP looks like a 'grandad car' in comparison lol

why are they doing 2 models that are based on the same body?

 

I prefer the looks and wheels of the old body, but the uprated tech and kit on the new model. Maybe it’s an age thing, after all I am a grandad!

 

I am sure the EP will be dropped when they  have run out of bits to make them, perhaps they ordered too many chrome grilles.

 

[3NUMBAS]

lithium deposits are limited and china has 80% will they weaponise it ?

[BKKBike09]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Flooding is irrelevant 'for me', as I won't drive either, ICE or EV through flooded streets, whether they say you can or not, and thankfully, never need to.    If that was an issue, I'd own something built for it, with sealed wheel bearings ????

In Bangkok you often have no choice as to whether you drive in flooded streets. It just needs a heavy downpour and in an hour or two, bingo. If you're already in the car, not many options. There's an argument for not driving at all when there's likely to be heavy rain, but then you're reliant on public transport. And leaving your car at home might not stop it getting flooded anyway ...

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

In Bangkok you often have no choice as to whether you drive in flooded streets. It just needs a heavy downpour and in an hour or two, bingo. If you're already in the car, not many options. There's an argument for not driving at all when there's likely to be heavy rain, but then you're reliant on public transport. And leaving your car at home might not stop it getting flooded anyway ...

 

Where do you live in BKK that's always flooding?  

[KhunLA]

58 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

In Bangkok you often have no choice as to whether you drive in flooded streets. It just needs a heavy downpour and in an hour or two, bingo. If you're already in the car, not many options. There's an argument for not driving at all when there's likely to be heavy rain, but then you're reliant on public transport. And leaving your car at home might not stop it getting flooded anyway ...

 

Another reason not to live there, though if I did, I'd find a dry spot. Daughter (Mazda 2) has lived there for couple years, and no flooded driving issues .... yet.

 

She needs to drive around the city quite a bit, from ThongLO to Victory Mon. to Rangsit.

[BKKBike09]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Where do you live in BKK that's always flooding?  

Phrakhanong.