ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Companies that provide company cars often lease them. The company I retired from leased thousands of cars a year. 

I would think a small percentage of cars produced are company cars (great tax write off), vs personal ownership.   Bit of apples & orange comparison, I  think.

[Yellowtail]

24 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I would think a small percentage of cars produced are company cars (great tax write off), vs personal ownership.   Bit of apples & orange comparison, I  think.

Perhaps, but US cities that buy e-buses often sometimes lease the batteries. 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Perhaps, but US cities that buy e-buses often sometimes lease the batteries. 

All foreign to me.  Just concerned about my little world here in TH.  Non-Nanny state.

 

Most about being self sufficient / independent of municipal services & monopolizing conglomerates, and the convenience of & savings are a nice plus.

 

Electric was off yesterday, as they were adding meters to a couple new builds in the hood.  Little things that don't affect us any more.   Could keep the ACs & air purifiers on, and a big issue for those on life supporting electronics.  Store rain water, so they can work on the pipes any time they want.

 

Garden even gives us a few figs every day, damn tasty.

 

Even a nice rain last night, so solar panels got a rinsing off 😀

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I would think a small percentage of cars produced are company cars (great tax write off), vs personal ownership.   Bit of apples & orange comparison, I  think.

You would think wrong, most car purchases are by companies.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You would think wrong, most car purchases are by companies.

To be sold for personal use ?  To end consumer, and not referring to franchise dealers from manufacturers.  Would think that aspect is a given.

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You would think wrong, most car purchases are by companies.

Are you talking UK or Thailand? In either case, you are probably wrong.

[ExpatOilWorker]

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article284533695.html

[Bandersnatch]

On 1/26/2024 at 9:00 AM, ExpatOilWorker said:

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article284533695.html

 

I have never experienced unusual tire wear in my EVs compared to when I drove ICE cars.  

 

Weight is always quoted as a factor in tire wear and people claim that EVs are heavy, which they are, but my EV weighs less that than the average pickup or SUV driven here in Thailand, but I never hear anybody complaining about the damage they do the roads or that they will collapse multistory car parks etc.

 

EVs come with a lot of technology which improves the driving experience and makes the vehicles more efficient.

 

One factor that definitely effects tire wear is wheel spin, the smoke you see is burning rubber. My EV has traction control and torque vectoring that sends power to which ever wheel needs the power most. My EV has a 0-100km/h of 3.8 seconds and I have never been able to spin the wheels.

 

Another factor that effects tire wear is locking up the wheels under heavy breaking. You are literally scrubbing the rubber off the tires. My EV uses regenerative breaking to recharge the battery. The fact that the car also has anti-lock breaks is actually pretty redundant. I have never been able to lock up the wheels.

 

Another factor that effects tire wear is incorrect tire pressure. I get a notification on the app and a message when starting up the car if any parameter of the car is out of optimum spec.

 

Picture from my car this morning, the rear tire pressures are a little low, probably due to the cooler temperatures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I have never experienced unusual tire wear in my EVs compared to when I drove ICE cars.  

 

Weight is always quoted as a factor in tire wear and people claim that EVs are heavy, which they are, but my EV weighs less that than the average pickup or SUV driven here in Thailand, but I never hear anybody complaining about the damage they do the roads or that they will collapse multistory car parks etc.

 

EVs come with a lot of technology which improves the driving experience and makes the vehicles more efficient.

 

One factor that definitely effects tire wear is wheel spin, the smoke you see is burning rubber. My EV has traction control and torque vectoring that sends power to which ever wheel needs the power most. My EV has a 0-100km/h of 3.8 seconds and I have never been able to spin the wheels.

 

Another factor that effects tire wear is locking up the wheels under heavy breaking. You are literally scrubbing the rubber off the tires. My EV uses regenerative breaking to recharge the battery. The fact that the car also has anti-lock breaks is actually pretty redundant. I have never been able to lock up the wheels.

 

Another factor that effects tire wear is incorrect tire pressure. I get a notification on the app and a message when starting up the car if any parameter of the car is out of optimum spec.

 

Picture from my car this morning, the rear tire pressures are a little low, probably due to the cooler temperatures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The tire wear thing seems like BS to me. Will they do burn-offs? If a car has all-wheel drive and people are punching it, it will not take long to burn through a set of tires. 

 

I don't think I've gotten less than 60,000km out of a set of tires in the last 30 years. 

[Yellowtail]

On 1/26/2024 at 9:00 AM, ExpatOilWorker said:

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article284533695.html

Interesting article. From the link:

 

"The tire manufacturer Michelin said conventional tires on electric vehicles consume tires 20 percent faster than on a gas-powered car — a figure commonly cited by EV makers as well — but Goodyear also has said they could wear up to 50 percent faster. Automakers and the tire industry are working on improvements."

 

Also talks about some of the reasons, and they seem to make sense. 

 

How many kms do you guys have on your EVs? 

[KhunLA]

33 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many kms do you guys have on your EVs? 

We've averaged about 20k kms a year since I've been here, and seems to be very consistent, as put 20k on the EV at the 1 year mark.

 

Tire manufacturers could always just make a better tire, or we'll just have to change more often.  Our EV is 500kg more than the ICE version.  Plus for us, it's just the 2 of us and the dog, not really hauling any extra people/weight around.  

 

If that's about the only added negative owning an EV, then I'm happy.  Not having a couple 1000 more parts to worry about is a fair trade 

 

"How many car parts are in ICE vs EV?

 

In fact, there are about 20 moving parts in an electric engine, compared to nearly 2,000 in an ICEV! EVs are very cheap to run because they do not rely on petrol or diesel ..."

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

We've averaged about 20k kms a year since I've been here, and seems to be very consistent, as put 20k on the EV at the 1 year mark.

So how do the tires look? 

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Tire manufacturers could always just make a better tire, or we'll just have to change more often.  Our EV is 500kg more than the ICE version.  Plus for us, it's just the 2 of us and the dog, not really hauling any extra people/weight around.  

Not an engineer then?

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

If that's about the only added negative owning an EV, then I'm happy.  Not having a couple 1000 more parts to worry about is a fair trade 

No one is knocking your precious MG, we were just discussing why they might be burning through tires so quickly.

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

"How many car parts are in ICE vs EV?

 

In fact, there are about 20 moving parts in an electric engine, compared to nearly 2,000 in an ICEV! EVs are very cheap to run because they do not rely on petrol or diesel ..."

The last tires i bought were B33,159, The tires they replaced lasted 56.500km, so tires should cost about B0.59/km

 

At B29.00/liter, fuel costs ~B2.75/liter

 

So tire cost is about 21% of fuel cost, which is not insignificant.

[KhunLA]

39 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So how do the tires look? 

Not an engineer then?

No one is knocking your precious MG, we were just discussing why they might be burning through tires so quickly.

The last tires i bought were B33,159, The tires they replaced lasted 56.500km, so tires should cost about B0.59/km

 

At B29.00/liter, fuel costs ~B2.75/liter

 

So tire cost is about 21% of fuel cost, which is not insignificant.

Tires still looking good, as peeked at last service (20k) and had then rotated.

 

Engineer ... yea, that thought crossed my mind, if able, practical/cost wise, if able to make a better tire.  I know they make different for different speeds & weights, but have they max out on specs.

 

33k ... whoa.   Don't think I ever spent more the 10k for a set.   Know they'll be more for the MG ZS.  Nothing to compare to, as didn't need tires for the ZS (ICE) as only had 40k kms on it when sold.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Tires still looking good, as peeked at last service (20k) and had then rotated.

Good news that

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Engineer ... yea, that thought crossed my mind, if able, practical/cost wise, if able to make a better tire.  I know they make different for different speeds & weights, but have they max out on specs.

Tires are pretty competitive, if someone knew how to make significantly better tires and still be able to sell them, they would. 

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

33k ... whoa.   Don't think I ever spent more the 10k for a set.   Know they'll be more for the MG ZS.  Nothing to compare to, as didn't need tires for the ZS (ICE) as only had 40k kms on it when sold.

 

Yeah, I used to have a little car back in the '90s. I got a set of four at Pep Boys mounted for $59 

[ExpatOilWorker]

EVs might not be the future after all and China might be betting on the wrong technology for their EV industry. 
https://lagradaonline.com/en/bmw-hydrogen-engines
https://lagradaonline.com/en/gm-honda-hydrogen-engines

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs might not be the future after all and China might be betting on the wrong technology for their EV industry. 
https://lagradaonline.com/en/bmw-hydrogen-engines
https://lagradaonline.com/en/gm-honda-hydrogen-engines

 

This is a post I made in response to someone suggesting Hydrogen is the future and not BEV.

 

There is a place for Hydrogen powered vehicles, but alongside BEV's, not instead of.

 

The reasons are simple, but the biggest one is cost.  Green Hydrogen is obtained by using renewables (typically solar) to make Electricity. At this point you can put it into your BEV and get an efficiency level of (let's call it) 1.  For Hydrogen production you then have to electrolyse water to get your Hydrogen, you then have to compress it using some of your electricity, transfer it to tankers, send those tankers to Hydrogen fuel stations (using some of your Hydrogen to run the tanker), transfer it into the fuel stations tanks, then later pump it into cars using more electricity.

 

Your car can either use the hydrogen like a CNG or LPG car would, giving you an efficiency level of about 0.15 (6 times more expensive than a BEV) or the car can have a fuel cell giving you an efficiency level of about 0.2 (5 times more expensive than a BEV).

 

So it will come down to consumer choice, do you want a BEV which is 5 times cheaper per kilometer than a Hydrogen powered car? or do you want the Hydrogen car?

 

Now let's look at fuel tax.  I can't see how a government can charge more tax on the electricity for a BEV, but they may want to tax Hydrogen, increasing the cost of running a Hydrogen car even further.

 

Market dynamics will take care of the rest.  Obviously the consumer will want the car that's cheaper to run, the BEV.  So to sell Hydrogen cars they will have to be cheaper.

 

Hydrogen powered vehicles are likely to be buses, large trucks and the like.

 

There is no way Hydrogen powered cars are going to be preferred by the consumer.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs might not be the future after all and China might be betting on the wrong technology for their EV industry. 
https://lagradaonline.com/en/bmw-hydrogen-engines
https://lagradaonline.com/en/gm-honda-hydrogen-engines

 

Incidentally, I am more than a bit suspicious of LagradaOnline, I think Toyota are behind it.  They are trying to obfuscate the truth about EV's because they know they face an existential threat.

 

The graphic below is a list of all the articles on that website, it's clear what they are attempting to do.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Incidentally, I am more than a bit suspicious of LagradaOnline, I think Toyota are behind it.  They are trying to obfuscate the truth about EV's because they know they face an existential threat.

 

The graphic below is a list of all the articles on that website, it's clear what they are attempting to do.

 

 

 

What truth about EVs are they trying to obfuscate?

 

What existential threat is Toyota facing? 

[JBChiangRai]

32 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

What truth about EVs are they trying to obfuscate?

 

What existential threat is Toyota facing? 

 

If you look at this thread

 

You will see that even other EV manufacturers are facing an existential threat, it's even worse for late-to-market legacy manufacturers who havent yet got their supply chains or EV product range sorted out.

 

In the case of Toyota, they are woefully behind because their late CEO (Toyoda) was fired by the board and kicked upstairs because of his anti-EV stand.

 

Toyota have one EV here, it's the bZ4x which compares unfavourably on every metric with the MG4 at less than half the price.

 

They face an existential threat and a lot of the anti-EV and pro Hydrogen propaganda is coming from them, IMHO.

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs might not be the future after all and China might be betting on the wrong technology for their EV industry. 
https://lagradaonline.com/en/bmw-hydrogen-engines
https://lagradaonline.com/en/gm-honda-hydrogen-engines

 

Hydrogen was being pushed 25 yrs ago along side BEVs.   That one got developed and in is used worldwide, and the other did not ... well, nuff said.

 

Agree w/ @JBChiangRai and hydrogen will have it's place, especially with heavy and or long haul transport companies, where time is money, and or weight simply is too much for EVs to be practical, at present.

[vinny41]

Toyota said it will install equipment that produces hydrogen using biogas made from chicken manure at Toyota’s Asia-Pacific headquarters in Samut Prakan province, located south of Bangkok.

The manure will be provided by Thai poultry farms operated by CP Group and other parties, as well as food waste from the Toyota regional headquarters’ cafeteria.

https://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG230628092928841

 

South Korea to produce biogas from organic waste resources

Biogas is a gaseous renewable energy source produced from raw materials such as agricultural waste, plant material and manure and can be used in vehicles that operate on natural gas.

https://asianews.network/south-korea-to-produce-biogas-from-organic-waste-resources/

[JBChiangRai]

26 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Toyota said it will install equipment that produces hydrogen using biogas made from chicken manure at Toyota’s Asia-Pacific headquarters in Samut Prakan province, located south of Bangkok.

The manure will be provided by Thai poultry farms operated by CP Group and other parties, as well as food waste from the Toyota regional headquarters’ cafeteria.

https://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG230628092928841

 

South Korea to produce biogas from organic waste resources

Biogas is a gaseous renewable energy source produced from raw materials such as agricultural waste, plant material and manure and can be used in vehicles that operate on natural gas.

https://asianews.network/south-korea-to-produce-biogas-from-organic-waste-resources/

Unfortunately, manure and poop produce methane which you still have to crack using a lot of energy to produce Hydrogen.

 

Biogas is mostly methane too.

 

You can use methane directly, it’s a hydrocarbon with all the after combustion pollutants that entails. But at least it is renewable this way though I doubt it’s scalable to replace petrol and diesel.

 

 

[vinny41]

Toyota chief sees 30% share ceiling for BEVs

Stressed the importance of having flexible powertrain offerings for future car buyers

In remarks published on Toyota’s media site he said: “No matter how much progress BEVs make, I think they will still only have a 30% market share. Then, the remaining 70% will be HEVs , FCEVs , and hydrogen engines. And I think [combustion] engine cars will definitely remain.”

He also pointed out the importance of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles: “One billion people around the world live in areas without electricity.

https://www.just-auto.com/news/toyota-chief-sees-30-share-ceiling-for-bevs/?cf-view

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

If you look at this thread

 

You will see that even other EV manufacturers are facing an existential threat, it's even worse for late-to-market legacy manufacturers who havent yet got their supply chains or EV product range sorted out.

 

In the case of Toyota, they are woefully behind because their late CEO (Toyoda) was fired by the board and kicked upstairs because of his anti-EV stand.

 

Toyota have one EV here, it's the bZ4x which compares unfavourably on every metric with the MG4 at less than half the price.

 

They face an existential threat and a lot of the anti-EV and pro Hydrogen propaganda is coming from them, IMHO.

 

 

So, all non-Chinese  automobile manufacturers, EV and ICEVS are facing an existential threat, correct? What was the point of singling out Toyota? 

 

Again, what truth about EVs are they trying to obfuscate?

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Toyota chief sees 30% share ceiling for BEVs

Stressed the importance of having flexible powertrain offerings for future car buyers

In remarks published on Toyota’s media site he said: “No matter how much progress BEVs make, I think they will still only have a 30% market share. Then, the remaining 70% will be HEVs , FCEVs , and hydrogen engines. And I think [combustion] engine cars will definitely remain.”

He also pointed out the importance of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles: “One billion people around the world live in areas without electricity.

https://www.just-auto.com/news/toyota-chief-sees-30-share-ceiling-for-bevs/?cf-view

This guy is a dinosaur and his position has changed from EV’s will fail to EV’s will have a maximum 30% market share.

 

IMHO he is still wrong.

 

Toyota are crapping themselves because their manufacturing cost of an EV is higher than the price Chinese EV’s are being retailed.  It’s even worse because Tesla and Chinese EV manufacturers have sorted out their supply chains for batteries and lithium and there’s insufficient left to support them.

[BenStark]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Toyota are crapping themselves because their manufacturing cost of an EV is higher than the price Chinese EV’s are being retailed.

 

Chinese EV manufacturing price is ALSO higher than their retail price. They only can sell at those prices  because they get massively subsidized by the Chinese government

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So, all non-Chinese  automobile manufacturers, EV and ICEVS are facing an existential threat, correct? What was the point of singling out Toyota? 

 

Again, what truth about EVs are they trying to obfuscate?

Because IMHO Toyota are behind a lot of the Anti-EV propaganda, EV’s catch fire, EV’s have range anxiety, EV’s can’t get wet etc etc

 

Their Chairman (CEO until he was fired) is on an anti-EV crusade.

 

They are trying to obfuscate all the reasons why EV sales volumes are growing exponentially, eg people like them, they like the acceleration, they like the silence, they like charging at home etc.

 

I don’t think you can underestimate the threat legacy automakers face.

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

Chinese EV manufacturing price is ALSO higher than their retail price. They only can sell at those prices  because they get massively subsidized by the Chinese government

I am not sure that is true.  I accept their margins are artificially high because of state subsidies.

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

Chinese EV manufacturing price is ALSO higher than their retail price. They only can sell at those prices  because they get massively subsidized by the Chinese government

And a number of government's are putting regulations an import tariffs in place to control Chinese EV imports

There is  a 27.5% tariff on importing Chinese-made passenger vehicles to the US and no tax breaks or subsidies

In Turkey new rules and regulations

https://www.seaisi.org/details/23996?type=news-rooms

Türkiye's doors are closed for 27 models: These cars will not be sold in 2024

https://www.gazeteduvar.com.tr/27-modelde-turkiye-kapisi-kapandi-bu-otomobiller-2024te-satilamayacak-galeri-1665148

Mainly Byd, MG and Neta models

 

[BenStark]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am not sure that is true.  I accept their margins are artificially high because of state subsidies.

You not sure? I'm sure you read these articles previously, as I have posted them to you before

 

https://jalopnik.com/nio-s-35-000-losses-on-every-car-sold-are-bankrolled-b-1850903388

 

The Chinese Government Is Subsidizing Nio’s $35,000 Loss On Every Car Sold

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/08/chinas-ev-sector-is-hemorrhaging-cash-and-it-doesnt-matter/

 

China's EV sector is hemorrhaging cash — but government subsidies keep the lights on

One company loses $35,000 per car