ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It is perfectly valid to look at the total number of vehicles sales for 2023 rather than looking at selective 2 months where the % of registrations are higher due to the EV 3.0 subsidy ending unless your working on the TAT projection model of number of tourists

Here are the results of a Carsome survey 

This is the origin of the survey of 200 CARSOME customers in February 2023 until finding interesting information as follows.

One in three consumers , or 30.2%, are likely to be interested in purchasing a used EV vehicle in the next 1-2 years.

23.3% still not sure

46.5% have no interest

https://www.brandbuffet.in.th/2023/03/carsome-launch-used-car-ev/

As to more Buyers than sellers that doesn't appear to be the case given your daughter recent car sale advertised November 8th 2023 and still not completed and @brfsa2 recent post where he sold a 2019  MG ZS EV to Carsome who took 6 months to find a buyer

 

Sorry but a survey a year ago is vastly out of date in this ever changing EV market.  If you're going to look at numbers, it's more appropriate to take a number much higher than 9.8%, I agree the December number maybe should not be counted but in which case it's more appropriate to take an average of Nov 2023 and Jan 2024 to determine year end market size, which comes out over 18%

 

Regarding my daughter's MG EP+, I rather hope the buyer doesn't complete as I'm sitting on a huge deposit and have the phone numbers of other buyers waiting in the wings.

 

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You can't have it both ways.  You can use annual data, monthly data, or rolling data, but you can't just cherry-pick data. 

 

If you want to go by month, fine, but it looks like market share dropped 4% in a month. 

 

Car buying is seasonal. 

 

Indeed, it is, but as the market matures, at least in a couple years, at least short term, I would expect to an oversupply of used EVs, just because the technology is changing faster than ICEVs. More people wanting new ones, older units becoming less desirable. 

 

Who is buying EVs? It's likely not the poor. 

 

Long term I would not see it as an issue. 

 

I suggested another way to look at market size, it's currently 21% and by the end of the year likely to be 25-30%.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on 2nd hand EV's.  I think the latest models (BYD, ORA, Deepak) are going to be in great demand.

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

~15.5 million new cars sold in the US in 2023

~651 thousand new cars sold in Thailand in 2023 

 

~1.2 million EVs sold in the US in 2023

~74 thousand EVs sold in Thailand in 2023

 

The Thailand market is ~4.2% of all cars sold in the US

The Thailand market is ~6.2% of EVs sold in the US

 

Thailand is not a big car market. 

 

I think used cars in Thailand historically have depreciated much slower than they do in the US. I can't speak to EV depreciation specifically, but it looks like cars are depreciating more quicky in Thailand now than they used to. People wanting to buy EVs may or may not have something to do with that. 

Comparing those two markets (USA & TH) is a bit silly.   Completely different mindset of purchasers, along with income, and infrastructure of CS.   Add the MSM of EVs are evil.

 

Yank are brainwashed into macho, bigger and more powerful is better.  Marketing ploy from the manufacturers, due to the 'green tax' on mid to large cars.   Why everything is called an SUV now, and on  truck platforms, so the manufacturer gets a tax break.

 

The green tax did the complete opposite of promoting cars to burn less fossil fuel.  Now the cars are simply larger, burn more, and classed as a truck.

 

Take the salary of Thais vs Yanks.   Why owning a practical trunk or scooter fits in their/Thais' finances.   Imagine a bunch of yank riding Hondo Waves   Anything smaller than a 750cc and you're laughed at.  That was my first MC.

 

EVs are a new market here, so yes, #s are small, though surprisingly high % of sales.  Thais being more thrifty and not brainwashed, more practical in their purchases.

[vinny41]

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Sorry but a survey a year ago is vastly out of date in this ever changing EV market.  If you're going to look at numbers, it's more appropriate to take a number much higher than 9.8%, I agree the December number maybe should not be counted but in which case it's more appropriate to take an average of Nov 2023 and Jan 2024 to determine year end market size, which comes out over 18%

 

Regarding my daughter's MG EP+, I rather hope the buyer doesn't complete as I'm sitting on a huge deposit and have the phone numbers of other buyers waiting in the wings.

 

 

I suggested another way to look at market size, it's currently 21% and by the end of the year likely to be 25-30%.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on 2nd hand EV's.  I think the latest models (BYD, ORA, Deepak) are going to be in great demand.

 

 

 

Unless you working for TAT the total number of vehicles sales in Thailand was 775,780 of which 76,314 were EV sales  which represents  9.8% of the total vehicle sales

and no matter what way you try to spin the total market share of 2023  is doesn't change any of the figures above 

You should look at it as a great success story as the yearly  EV figures for 2022 were 9,729 cars

 

Edited February 8 by vinny41
typo

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Comparing those two markets (USA & TH) is a bit silly.   Completely different mindset of purchasers, along with income, and infrastructure of CS.   Add the MSM of EVs are evil.

I thought we agreed you were not going to respond to any of my automotive related posts, no? 

 

I was only responding to someone that said Thailand was a large market. 

 

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

Yank are brainwashed into macho, bigger and more powerful is better.  Marketing ploy from the manufacturers, due to the 'green tax' on mid to large cars.   Why everything is called an SUV now, and on  truck platforms, so the manufacturer gets a tax break.

Yeah, I don't seen anyone driving pickups here. Everyone is just too stupid to buy an MG

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

The green tax did the complete opposite of promoting cars to burn less fossil fuel.  Now the cars are simply larger, burn more, and classed as a truck.

Taxes rarely do what they are intended to do. 

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Take the salary of Thais vs Yanks.   Why owning a practical trunk or scooter fits in their/Thais' finances.   Imagine a bunch of yank riding Hondo Waves   Anything smaller than a 750cc and you're laughed at.  That was my first MC.

My first was a Rupp

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

EVs are a new market here, so yes, #s are small, though surprisingly high % of sales.  Thais being more thrifty and not brainwashed, more practical in their purchases.

Yes, it's been proven time and again. 

[KhunLA]

 

[vinny41]

I'm back in a diesel after 4yrs running both EV & PHEV. What needs to change to get me to go back?

 

[HighPriority]

I lifted this graphic of 2023 ev sales off an Australian stalkbook site:

 

[JBChiangRai]

11 hours ago, HighPriority said:

I lifted this graphic of 2023 ev sales off an Australian stalkbook site:

 

 

BYD launched in Australia during 2023 and the official launch date of the BYD Seal was 1/1/2024, it will be interesting to see how those numbers change this year.  I expect BYD to overtake Tesla.

[Gweiloman]

23 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I'm back in a diesel after 4yrs running both EV & PHEV. What needs to change to get me to go back?

 

I’m a subscriber to Harry’s Garage but in this case, I wasted 20 mins not learning anything new.

 

Early on, he mentions that he does lots of regular long distance trips. It has been mentioned many times that an EV is not the best choice of vehicle under such scenarios. His other valid comments are about the price of public charging in the UK and inefficiency in cold weather. Very valid if you’re living in the UK, not so much if you’re living here in Thailand. 
 

Depreciation and insurance is another point. If you’re buying GBP 100k cars, then you are going to take a hit no matter what. A BYD Atto 3 or Dolphin at GBP 20k is not in the same ball park.

 

One thing he doesn’t talk about is EV fires. Wonder why?

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

I’m a subscriber to Harry’s Garage but in this case, I wasted 20 mins not learning anything new.

 

Early on, he mentions that he does lots of regular long distance trips. It has been mentioned many times that an EV is not the best choice of vehicle under such scenarios. His other valid comments are about the price of public charging in the UK and inefficiency in cold weather. Very valid if you’re living in the UK, not so much if you’re living here in Thailand. 
 

Depreciation and insurance is another point. If you’re buying GBP 100k cars, then you are going to take a hit no matter what. A BYD Atto 3 or Dolphin at GBP 20k is not in the same ball park.

 

One thing he doesn’t talk about is EV fires. Wonder why?

People in the UK looking for Byd cars at GBP 20K are in for a long wait looking on Auto trader cheapest Byd car starts at £29K for a Dolphin and £31K for an used Atto 3 and £43K for Byd Seal

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Electric&make=BYD&moreOptions=visible&postcode=SW1A 2AA&sort=price-asc

  @KhunLA According to this your MG ZS EV has the best Energy consumption of electric vehicles rating of 297 Wh/mi for cars below B1,000,000

https://ev-database.org/uk/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car

 

As your a  subscriber to Harry’s Garage maybe you should ask him why he doesn't talk about EV fires

Edited February 10 by vinny41
add

[KhunLA]

46 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

  @KhunLA According to this your MG ZS EV has the best Energy consumption of electric vehicles rating of 297 Wh/mi for cars below B1,000,000

https://ev-database.org/uk/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car

Thanks ...

 

... them cheap, crappy, Chinese MGs ... I don't why people buy 'em 

 

You keep finding more good stuff about our ZS than I do 👍

Edited February 10 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

32 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Thanks ...

 

... them cheap, crappy, Chinese MGs ... I don't why people buy 'em 

 

You keep finding more good stuff about our ZS than I do 👍

Because they're cheap and they like to dive crappy cars? 

 

[Pib]

A 9 Feb 2024 article from FoxNews which is a conservative/Republican leaning news agency and often use scare tactics in their news reports if those scare tactics paint the liberal/Democrat party in a bad light.  Of course liberal leaning news agencies also use similar tactics when it suit their needs.  So, take the article with a big grain of sale.   But regardless, it's effective to suppress/slow down EV sales growth in the U.S.    

 

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/cheap-chinese-evs-pose-security-risk-americans-keep-them-out-economist-warns

Cheap Chinese EVs pose a 'security risk' to Americans: 'Keep them out,' economist warns

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

A 9 Feb 2024 article from FoxNews which is a conservative/Republican leaning news agency and often use scare tactics in their news reports if those scare tactics paint the liberal/Democrat party in a bad light.  Of course liberal leaning news agencies also use similar tactics when it suit their needs.  So, take the article with a big grain of sale.   But regardless, it's effective to suppress/slow down EV sales growth in the U.S.    

 

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/cheap-chinese-evs-pose-security-risk-americans-keep-them-out-economist-warns

Cheap Chinese EVs pose a 'security risk' to Americans: 'Keep them out,' economist warns

Did you read anything that was factually wrong in the article? 

 

Nothing stopping the Chinese from selling cars in the US. 

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Did you read anything that was factually wrong in the article? 

 

Nothing stopping the Chinese from selling cars in the US. 

USA ... "MG ZS EV: This subcompact SUV starts at $30,995"

TH ... price <$24k All-in.   A hefty 25% increase.

 

Still better than owning the low spec'd POS Nissan Leaf, in either country.

EVs aren't inexpensive in the USA

 

USA ... Toyota Yaris ... $16.605

TH ... $15,556 ... not much difference ... hmm

Edited February 10 by KhunLA

[Jack Cook]

Ha ha ha after countless fools were dudded into a worthless virtue signalling dream, now even the manufacturers are giving up on the farce. ICE is here to stay for a long yet. Good luck when it comes to to trade or buy your next battery. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

USA ... "MG ZS EV: This subcompact SUV starts at $30,995"

TH ... price <$24k All-in.   A hefty 25% increase.

 

Still better than owning the low spec'd POS Nissan Leaf, in either country.

EVs aren't inexpensive in the USA

 

USA ... Toyota Yaris ... $16.605

TH ... $15,556 ... not much difference ... hmm

Did you read anything that was factually wrong in the article? 

 

Nothing stopping the Chinese from selling cars in the US. 

 

USA:

2023 Toyota Prius Prime. Starting price: $32,350

2023 Chevrolet Bolt EV. Starting price: $26,500

2023 Nissan Leaf. Starting price: $28,140 
2023 Mini Cooper SE. Starting price: $29,900

[GroveHillWanderer]

54 minutes ago, Jack Cook said:

Ha ha ha after countless fools were dudded into a worthless virtue signalling dream, now even the manufacturers are giving up on the farce. ICE is here to stay for a long yet. Good luck when it comes to to trade or buy your next battery. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Which manufacturers are those? Do you have a source for that claim?

 

And what makes you say EV owners will need to trade or buy a battery? Batteries are lasting longer than ever, with current experience and data indicating they will last longer than the vehicles themselves.

 

As the article below from Forbes magazine states:

 

Quote

It’s clear that most EV batteries will outlast the vehicles they were installed in, and even then, they have a worthwhile second life before they need to be stripped down for recycling.

 

Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted Delays Recycling Programs

Edited February 10 by GroveHillWanderer

[ExpatOilWorker]

4 hours ago, Jack Cook said:

Ha ha ha after countless fools were dudded into a worthless virtue signalling dream, now even the manufacturers are giving up on the farce. ICE is here to stay for a long yet. Good luck when it comes to to trade or buy your next battery. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Luckily we have plenty of fuel left for all these lovely ICE vehicles 👍  

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Luckily we have plenty of fuel left for all these lovely ICE vehicles 👍  

 

Do you think we'll run out of solar or fossil fuels first ? 

 

Which one's price doesn't fluctuate, and the cost to provide increasing drops year after year, with every new advancement, unlike the dinosaur fuel that it is.

Edited February 10 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Do you think we'll run out of solar or fossil fuels first ? 

 

Which one's price doesn't fluctuate, and the cost to provide increasing drops year after year, with every new advancement, unlike the dinosaur fuel that it is.

 

The price for solar generally does not drop if you include the real estate. 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

 

The price for solar generally does not drop if you include the real estate. 

I don't need no stinkin' real estate ...

 

... "Solar-Powered Stella Vita Camper Has Pop-Up Roof, Pop-Out Panels

It can travel up to 453 miles on a sunny day" 

 

 

 

Edited February 10 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I don't need no stinkin' real estate ...

 

... "Solar-Powered Stella Vita Camper Has Pop-Up Roof, Pop-Out Panels

It can travel up to 453 miles on a sunny day" 

 

 

 

Yeah, my engineering school had a solar powered car back in the '90s that wend coast to coast, so? 

[vinny41]

This is what cars of the future will look like if there is no fossil fuel available

https://flintstones.fandom.com/wiki/Flintmobile?file=The_Flintstones_Flintmobile.jpg

[Gweiloman]

20 hours ago, Jack Cook said:

Ha ha ha after countless fools were dudded into a worthless virtue signalling dream, now even the manufacturers are giving up on the farce. ICE is here to stay for a long yet. Good luck when it comes to to trade or buy your next battery. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

What’s with all this virtue signalling malarkey that some anti EVers keep harping on about? You really should learn to keep up.

 

Those fools who have bought an EV here in Thailand are, afaik, very happy with their purchases. Better to be a fool who is happy with whatever he has bought than an ignoramus who has complains about all his purchases. I get such delight when I look at my solar power installation app and see that the sun has thought fit to gift me with free travel. ICEs are here to stay for a long time yet. Enjoy handing over your cash to the petrol stations :).

[KhunLA]

54 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

What’s with all this virtue signalling malarkey that some anti EVers keep harping on about? You really should learn to keep up.

 

Those fools who have bought an EV here in Thailand are, afaik, very happy with their purchases. Better to be a fool who is happy with whatever he has bought than an ignoramus who has complains about all his purchases. I get such delight when I look at my solar power installation app and see that the sun has thought fit to gift me with free travel. ICEs are here to stay for a long time yet. Enjoy handing over your cash to the petrol stations :).

Yep ... and that 3k-5k a month saved pays for more than a few meals away from the house.   Along with not costing anything to explore further away from the house to experience somewhere, something a bit different, without the petrol to do so, costing more then the meal.

 

Nicest plus about our EV .. IMHO

Takes me places I wouldn't normally go.

Edited February 11 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

Four of the seven cars in the running for Car Of The Year 2024 are EV’s.

 

http://m5.emails.telegraph.co.uk/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40lh593%2FBEKfZ3FMDII2JRAZa0g3JqROZDI%2BaO%2BhA11qkNbddUMnLSDhZ8IfzyF7mC0hH99VA0vWQLBXuFjIRzJw%3D%3D&WT.mc_id=e_DM276039&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_Ele_New&utmsource=email&utm_medium=Edi_Ele_New20240210&utm_campaign=DM276039

[Yellowtail]

car of the year 2023 - Google Search

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

car of the year 2023 - Google Search

 

Last year, the UK car of the year was the MG4 EV.

[vinny41]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Four of the seven cars in the running for Car Of The Year 2024 are EV’s.

 

http://m5.emails.telegraph.co.uk/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40lh593%2FBEKfZ3FMDII2JRAZa0g3JqROZDI%2BaO%2BhA11qkNbddUMnLSDhZ8IfzyF7mC0hH99VA0vWQLBXuFjIRzJw%3D%3D&WT.mc_id=e_DM276039&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_Ele_New&utmsource=email&utm_medium=Edi_Ele_New20240210&utm_campaign=DM276039

It would appear that some manufacturers aren't interested in Car of the year

Perhaps it is a measure of the perceived lack of importance for this understated award that Peugeot chose not to bring its new 3008, but what is the explanation for Volvo delivering a sole example of its highly-fancied EX30 with only a 2 per cent charge in the battery, not even enough to get it to the nearest charger?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/car-of-the-year-2024-uk-models-finalists-ranked/

Looking at the snapshot of each model the author isn't that keen on any model

as stated in the comments section best described as None of the above