ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, but you buy them because you want them, not because you're going to save money by doing so. 

 

I like buying new cars as well. 

Now can afford them, or more, prioritize having new.  Out & about too much, and have no desire to break down in the middle of nowhere, with no tools or 'parts store' nearby.  Yet to need, but nice to know 24 hr road service is available.

 

New cars made so much better than decades ago.  No malfunctions in the 3-7-8 yrs owning past 3 cars here.  Asians build quality products.  Nothing but unnecessary (10k kms) oil changes, and tune-ups & belt changes, all good.

[VocalNeal]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

That's hilarious. What do/did you do for a living?  

Ad hominen. Tut, tut 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Ad hominen. Tut, tut 

How so?

 

Thinking that any major automaker does not take into consideration that a major ~90% of their product offering will be banned in a significant share of their market in thirteen years is crazy. 

 

Clearly anyone that believe this does not work in the private sector.  

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

How so?

 

Thinking that any major automaker does not take into consideration that a major ~90% of their product offering will be banned in a significant share of their market in thirteen years is crazy. 

 

Clearly anyone that believe this does not work in the private sector.  

On what do you base your contention that 13 years will be scaring off manufacturers? What about 20 years? 30 years? What are your objective criteria for claiming that 13 years will have that effect? 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

On what do you base your contention that 13 years will be scaring off manufacturers? What about 20 years? 30 years? What are your objective criteria for claiming that 13 years will have that effect? 

I never said nor implied it would scare  manufacturers, that's just something else you made up. You seem to do a lot of that. Just like when you said there were no more subsidies for EV. 

 

Again, please a little intellectual honesty. 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

40 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I never said nor implied it would scare  manufacturers, that's just something else you made up. You seem to do a lot of that. Just like when you said there were no more subsidies for EV. 

 

Again, please a little intellectual honesty. 

 

 

 

Then why raise the point about manufacturers at all? Would "discourage" be a better word than "scared off"? And what material difference would that make?

I never said that that there were no more subsidies for EV's. As I have already explained at length. You tried that one on already and failed. Unless of course, you can point out where I wrote that. Share it with me.

Again, please a little intellectual honesty.

[Yellowtail]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Then why raise the point about manufacturers at all? Would "discourage" be a better word than "scared off"? And what material difference would that make?

What I said was: "If you're an automaker, does that not enter into decisions about your investments/product offering?"

 

To which you said:

Then when I said that was ridiculous, you claimed I said it was scaring off manufacturers. I never said nor implied that. 

 

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I never said that that there were no more subsidies for EV's. As I have already explained at length. You tried that one on already and failed. Unless of course, you can point out where I wrote that. Share it with me.

Again, please a little intellectual honesty.

You said there were no more subsidies for Teslas, which is not true. 

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What I said was: "If you're an automaker, does that not enter into decisions about your investments/product offering?"

 

To which you said:

Then when I said that was ridiculous, you claimed I said it was scaring off manufacturers. I never said nor implied that. 

 

You said there were no more subsidies for Teslas, which is not true. 

Have you forgotten this already?

As I pointed out, Federal subsidies were phased out.  And, as I already have discussed, the point was that Longwood claimed it was subsidies that were driving Tesla sales. Given the the biggest subsidy of all was finally phased out in a year that Tesla sales zoomed, that was clearly untrue.

 

I know the mods have a rule about editing quotes to be misleading. Maybe you think that shouldn't apply to the person who created them. Here's what you wrote in full.

"It depends on how you define imminently. California has a ban on new ICE sales scheduled and do other states. 

 

If you're an automaker, does that not enter into decisions about your investments/product offering?"

You left out that first crucial sentence, didn't you?

 

And you criticized me for saying it would make no difference. 

Were you endorsing my statement?   Your comment makes it obvious what you meant.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

I'd love to be around when everyone has an electric car and the planet's temperature is still rising.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

I'd love to be around when everyone has an electric car and the planet's temperature is still rising.

What's your point? As climatologists have repeatedly pointed out even if net zero or lower is achieved temperatures will still continue to rise.

Irreversible climate change due to carbon dioxide emissions

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0812721106

So that's inevitable. I wonder why people who clearly are completely unfamiliar with this issue, bother to share their lack of knowledge with the rest of us.

[Longwood50]

13 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

So what? It almost NEVER makes economic sense to buy a new car. 

You are absolutely correct.  This was a response to the OP who was attempting to make the case that you would "save money" by buying an EV.  There is no way you can spend 1 million baht or more and expect you recoup that through lower costs to operate the car.  

Taking the MG ZS as an example since it is one of the few cars that you can get both a ICE and an EV model in.  The EV model costs 48% more than the comparable ICE.  It is likely you can't even recoup the cost of the difference in price, let alone the full purchase price.  And that is not taking into account the higher insurance cost because of the more expensive vehicle, the extra expense for the charging station, and the depreciation on the EV. 

The resale value of EV in Thailand is still a bit of an unknown.  Here is what is said about the USA. 

 

 

If you bought an electric car and decided to sell it even a year later, its value would have depreciated dramatically — “like a used bedsheet,” as one commenter wrote on car sale site Autotrader. In fact, on average, 2020 electric vehicles have depreciated about 52% from the sticker price in the first year, according to data from iSeeCars.Interestingly, the steep depreciation makes EVs a bargain on the used car market.

 

Normally, cars that lose value quickly aren’t good candidates for leasing, since the lease payment is based on the amount the car depreciates, plus fees. The greater the depreciation, the more expensive the monthly lease payment usually is.

However, carmakers offset the rapid depreciation of electric cars and lower the cost of payments using a variety of methods, Hall says. This includes:

• Offering a low interest rate (called “money factor” in leasing)

• Raising the residual value (how much the car is worth at the end of the lease)

• Offering cash incentives
  
   

  But it's the smart choice if you're thinking about getting an electric car. Leasing has grown in popularity — now making up almost 27% of all new car sales. But when it comes to electric vehicles, 80% are leased, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.
  
  Note 80% are leased.  Why? Because the cars depreciate so fast that the owners don't want to get stuck with the low resale value and the manufacturers are subsidizing that with low interest rates, raising the residual value, and offering cash incentives. 
  I can tell you, I bought a Toyota Cross Hyrbrid.  Even Toyota on a hybrid here in Thailand makes a guarantee on the resale of the car, to boost its residual value. 
  
  If EV were so cost effective there would be no need for the government to offer tax credits or the manufacturers to offer special incentives.  You don't see Apple running those kind of promotions on its Iphone 13 even though it costs upwards of 3 times Huwaii, Vivo, or Oppo product with "similar" features. 
  
  If a person wants to own an EV the "smart" thing to do is to purchase or lease it after it is 3 years old in the USA and coming off from lease.  I did the same for years purchasing used BMW's as they came off lease.  I typically purchased them for 50% of new price and with mileage ranging from as little as 24,000 to as high as 50,000 km.
  
  The steep depreciation is done and you still get the majority of the life of the vehicle.  Perhaps if you can buy one as stated at the 50% or more off the original price, the fuel savings on EV might be a possibility.  
  
  If someone wants to purchase an EV great.  Personally I just don't want the hassle of the charging and the uncertainty if I travel of finding a charging station.  But if I wanted to buy one it would be because I have a preference for it and I would not be deluded into thinking that somehow laying out 1 million baht or more was going to "save me money"
   

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

If EV were so cost effective there would be no need for the government to offer tax credits or the manufacturers to offer special incentives.  You don't see Apple running those kind of promotions on its Iphone 13 even though it costs upwards of 3 times Huwaii, Vivo, or Oppo product with "similar" features. 

You have absolutely no proof that government subsidies are necessary to get people to purchase EVs. Governments may believe that, but as we've seen in the case of Tesla in the USA as Federal subsidies declined from $7000 per vehicle to $0, its sales accelerated. 

[Eano]

What PEV's are available in Thailand and can they be plugged in at home.

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, Eano said:

What PEV's are available in Thailand and can they be plugged in at home.

Not a complete list, as a bunch of smaller (very low) spec'd, short range EVs, many not easily registered.   Google 'iMIO mine EV' for ballpark idea of such offerings.  Couple other dealers also, 'DT', and another.

 

There's also 3 brands of E-motorcycles that can registered easily for local driving.

 

Then there is the 'mid' range, lower spec'd, but registered, much cheaper (relative) EVs.  2 come to mind, and not for over the road, long distance driving or performance; Wuling & Pocco models.

https://www.autofun.co.th/news/เทียบสเปคกันชัด-ๆ-pocco-mm-vs-wuling-mini-ev-เจ้าจิ๋วคันไหนครองใจคุณ-37641

 

I believe all the BEVs plug in at home, as would be silly not to.  Did you mean strictly BEV, or also PHEV, being both BEV & ICE.

Not sure about others, but the MG HS PHEV, has both, it's an EV & ICE

[Eano]

Sorry, I should have said PEV's.  And something in mid to upper range. But I was told by someone who claims to have researched the subject that there are special requirements for plugging in at home, like 3 phase power. This doesn't make sense to me.  I am in the mountains & already have a solar array & plan to increase the size so that I can go 100% solar including a car.

BTW what are the 3 motorbikes you mentioned? A Zero would be nice but not available in Thailand.

[macahoom]

26 minutes ago, Eano said:

Sorry, I should have said PEV's.  And something in mid to upper range. But I was told by someone who claims to have researched the subject that there are special requirements for plugging in at home, like 3 phase power. This doesn't make sense to me.  I am in the mountains & already have a solar array & plan to increase the size so that I can go 100% solar including a car.

BTW what are the 3 motorbikes you mentioned? A Zero would be nice but not available in Thailand.

 Simple answer: There are no special requirements for plugging in at home, like 3 phase power. 

[KhunLA]

30 minutes ago, Eano said:

Sorry, I should have said PEV's.  And something in mid to upper range. But I was told by someone who claims to have researched the subject that there are special requirements for plugging in at home, like 3 phase power. This doesn't make sense to me.  I am in the mountains & already have a solar array & plan to increase the size so that I can go 100% solar including a car.

BTW what are the 3 motorbikes you mentioned? A Zero would be nice but not available in Thailand.

Only special requirement would be if wanting 'fast charging' at home.  I believe most come with charging ability from a normal home outlet.  Fast chargers range in price, and installation (cost/hassle) with PEA if not DIY

 

Motorbikes;

DECO brand, which I own ????????

https://decogreenenergy.com/index.php/th/product-deco/electric-motorcycles

Yadae

One dealer of: https://www.ajevbike.com/

the 3rd, escapes my memory, sorry

 

DECO line up, I own the SUSU model, not pictured:

 

[KhunLA]

Here's another, apparently able to register:

https://www.bkkebike.com/joyride-e-motorcycle

 

Depending on use, an ebike maybe practical, as I converted my Schwinn into an ebike, and actually enjoy riding that a bit more, though limited application, since simply a bike.  Pannier bags would help if actually wanting to be more practical, shopping wise.

 

Plenty of ebike variation listed on above link, though not inexpensive, with battery being the expensive part.  Considering DECO Sally is ฿37k

 

 

[macahoom]

45 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Only special requirement would be if wanting 'fast charging' at home.  I believe most come with charging ability from a normal home outlet.  Fast chargers range in price, and installation (cost/hassle) with PEA if not DIY

 

Motorbikes;

DECO brand, which I own ????????

https://decogreenenergy.com/index.php/th/product-deco/electric-motorcycles

Yadae

One dealer of: https://www.ajevbike.com/

the 3rd, escapes my memory, sorry

 

DECO line up, I own the SUSU model, not pictured:

 

What special requirement is needed for fast charging at home?

 

I have a fast charger and three phase is not needed. Installation. by an electrician sent by MG, was relatively simple and neat.

[Yellowtail]

17 hours ago, macahoom said:

What special requirement is needed for fast charging at home?

 

I have a fast charger and three phase is not needed. Installation. by an electrician sent by MG, was relatively simple and neat.

I think you only need "enough" power. A dedicated circuit would be good.

[macahoom]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I think you only need "enough" power. A dedicated circuit would be good.

Yeh, I have a dedicated circuit for my 7.4kW wall box. Breakers at both the distribution board and the wall box. Thick cable!

 

I can also plug directly into a normal domestic outlet and charge at about 2.2kW.

[Eano]

Thanks for the info. I don't think fast charging is a necessity & I certainly don't want hassles with PEA. I have just built a new house & & future proofed it by installing a dedicated power point with separate breaker & heavier cable.  It seems like all I need now is a suitable car:)

[KhunLA]

If needing any more convincing, cost to operate that ICE (MG ZS), 1 - 2 - 3 years, depending how many kms you rack up per year.  For us, pretty much what MG expected, 20k a year.

 

30k kms oil change / maintenance done yesterday. Oil change & filters & ??? as didn't bother reading receipt, but nothing not in the maintenance schedule needed.

฿3850 yesterday / oil change + @ 30k kms

฿1850 oil change @ 10k

฿1850 oil change @ 20k

฿7550 total @ 30k  vs ฿2700 for EV maintenance (MG est (฿9000 per 100k kms)

฿90,000 for E85 @ ฿33 vs ฿20,625 for PEA @ ฿4.4 (30k/ 320 X 4.4) if no solar

ICE 30k est cost - ฿97,550

EV 30k est cost - ฿23,325 

 

Was informed by MG, battery on borrowed time.  Expired 1 yr / 20k warranty. 

Peak 570 CCA, now 465 CCA

Replacement cost @ MG <฿3900 includes ฿250 for old battery

Found GS replacement (650 CCA) for ฿3k ish on internet, and haven't checked

with local GS authorized dealer, though would expect about same price.

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Was informed by MG, battery on borrowed time.  Expired 1 yr / 20k warranty. 

My electric MG does a full vehicle diagnostics every time you start the car or open the mobile app which includes checking the status of the 12v Battery. Any problem with the car and a notification is sent to your phone. In 8 months I have only had one fault notification and that was that one of the tires needed more air!

 

Ready mode engages the high voltage battery pack which will also top up the 12v battery no need to drive car.

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

My electric MG does a full vehicle diagnostics every time you start the car or open the mobile app which includes checking the status of the 12v Battery. Any problem with the car and a notification is sent to your phone. In 8 months I have only had one fault notification and that was that one of the tires needed more air!

 

Ready mode engages the high voltage battery pack which will also top up the 12v battery no need to drive car.

I guess the iSmart app would have told me about the battery, but not really an app user, actually very anti app.  I didn't even bother downloading it.  Use my phone for GPS & camera ... even receive a phone once or twice a month.????

[LarrySR]

Tesla’s profits blow away forecasts.
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/04/20/business/tesla-earnings/index.html

 

Tesla income for the quarter, $3.7 billion, much higher than the $2.6 billion forecast by analysts.
It also was more than triple the $1.1 billion it earned on that basis a year ago and 30% higher than the previous record of $2.9 billion it posted in the fourth quarter of last year.

 

2,463% stock market return for the last 3 years. 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, LarrySR said:

Tesla’s profits blow away forecasts.
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/04/20/business/tesla-earnings/index.html

 

Tesla income for the quarter, $3.7 billion, much higher than the $2.6 billion forecast by analysts.
It also was more than triple the $1.1 billion it earned on that basis a year ago and 30% higher than the previous record of $2.9 billion it posted in the fourth quarter of last year.

 

2,463% stock market return for the last 3 years. 

Let's hope he can something to save Twitter...

[no deal]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:53 AM, Henryford said:

An EV would be a nightmare here in Thailand, unless you live in a house with a charging port and only do short around town journeys. I can't see that changing for 20+ years.

Im a looking to buy a electric car,but not for now, maybe in two years,i think the battery are going to be better and the range to,i live in a house and i want a charging port,my wife drive about 50/70 km a day,sometime we go on a trip but never to fare so a 500km range is good for me,this cars are all ready there but to expensive,in two years i think the electric car are going to be a lot better,battery,range and price,now if i want to go over 500km we can sleep in a hotel whit a charging station and go the next day whit a full chrge! Electric car work for me!

 

On 1/11/2022 at 9:53 AM, Henryford said:

An EV would be a nightmare here in Thailand, unless you live in a house with a charging port and only do short around town journeys. I can't see that changing for 20+ years.

 

[KhunLA]

ICE vs EV cost comparison, using MGs ZS

buy in prices of ฿740k / ฿950k

Over 180k kms warranty period for the EV model

w/ estimated costs, for service over that period.

 Cost for charging PEA estimate from home & local driving

If solar charging at home, subtract that ฿90k 

 

Using 2 petrol prices rounded up, cheapest & expensive

from PTT's today's price of E85 @ ฿35 & 91 @ ฿43 

Using actual kpL & 403 kms per 100% charge

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

ICE vs EV cost comparison, using MGs ZS

buy in prices of ฿740k / ฿950k

Over 180k kms warranty period for the EV model

w/ estimated costs, for service over that period.

 Cost for charging PEA estimate from home & local driving

If solar charging at home, subtract that ฿90k 

 

Using 2 petrol prices rounded up, cheapest & expensive

from PTT's today's price of E85 @ ฿35 & 91 @ ฿43 

Using actual kpL & 403 kms per 100% charge

What if you only drive less than a thousand km a month? 

 

With my 2.8l Fortuner, I spend less than 5K a year on service, and less than 20K a year on fuel.