ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

Sorry weren't we discussing 700k THB three year old diesel trucks? Yet you have now brought in a $90-125k "luxury" SUV. Shifting the goalposts much?

Honestly, what has the Touareg got to do with what we were talking about? Absolutely nothing. 

Don't be more obtuse than you are already, obviously the Touareg was a Diesel, as was made clear. Your nonsense that all Diesels are "farm vehicles" is just that. Nonsense.

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

You want to leave your engine running all night just so you can have aircon? Seriously??

There's plenty of portable  electric power stations, you don't need an EV for that.

[josephbloggs]

15 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Don't be more obtuse than you are already, obviously the Touareg was a Diesel, as was made clear. Your nonsense that all Diesels are "farm vehicles" is just that. Nonsense.

Oh my, this is getting dull. Where did I say all diesels are farm vehicles?  You said:

 

Quote

Of course you can. He's clueless. Here's a superb specimen of a Diesel pick up, four doors and from 2021. The wonderful Isuzu.

 

https://www.one2car.com/en/for-sale/isuzu-d-max-s-bangkok-metropolitan-kanchanaphisek/14865352?auc=true

And then, YOU SAID:

 

Quote

Of course a BEV will be cheaper, but for 489,000 Baht you get a REAL car from Isuzu, you know, one which you can actually drive around Thailand without paranoically checking the battery level , lest you be stranded at a petrol station without an electric charger...

 

Plus, you won't feel like you're driving a dead remote.

And my reply was No, but it will feel like you're driving a rattly old farm vehicle, which your 489,000 baht Isuzu truck is. Rattly, noisy, smelly, farm vehicle.

Then you started wibbling on about $100k Touaregs. At least follow your own comments, surely that isn't hard.

Oh, and for the record, while a $100k diesel Touareg has a lot of sound deadening and is reasonably refined (for a diesel), compared to a petrol equivalent - or especially a BEV - it is still noisy and rattly, and most certainly smelly. 

I've told this before but I put down a deposit on a C250 Merc when this latest shape came out a few years ago but before delivery they called and said sorry, they are not importing the C250 anymore and are only selling diesels but they would give me a C300 at no extra cost. I said I wasn't interested in a diesel but they asked me to try one as they are luxurious, refined and quiet. I tried it with an open mind. it was noisy, rattly and smelly and I cancelled my order and bought something else instead.

If a BEV is not suitable for someone, that is fine. But to argue that a diesel - any diesel - is not noisier, rattlier or smellier than a petrol or BEV equivalent then you are just a joke. Diesels are disgusting in every way.

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

There's plenty of portable  electric power stations, you don't need an EV for that.

You're a funny guy, or extremely ignorant.   Have you ever researched them, and priced one that would actually run an AC or heater overnight ?

 

Example, EcoFlow Delta Pro (3600) @ ฿100k, will run ...

... 5k BTU AC for about 7 hrs  (at home we use 14 hrs worth)

... a portable heater for 4 hrs

... 

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

You're a funny guy, or extremely ignorant.   Have you ever researched them, and priced one that would actually run an AC or heater overnight ?

 

Example, EcoFlow Delta Pro (3600) @ ฿100k, will run ...

... 5k BTU AC for about 7 hrs  (at home we use 14 hrs worth)

... a portable heater for 4 hrs

... 

You don't need it "overnight". Just a an hour or two until you fall asleep. Plus it'd be useful for any gadgets you carry.

[Cameroni]

17 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Oh, and for the record, while a $100k diesel Touareg has a lot of sound deadening and is reasonably refined (for a diesel), compared to a petrol equivalent - or especially a BEV - it is still noisy and rattly, and most certainly smelly. 

 

A Touareg is neither noisy nor "rattly". That's totally ludicrous. Do you have any idea how heavy a Touareg is? And how well made? It's a joint Audi and Porsche project. Smelly and "rattly", tssssk. Obviously you've never driven one.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

You don't need it "overnight". Just a an hour or two until you fall asleep. Plus it'd be useful for any gadgets you carry.

Funny that doesn't work in the house like that.  After I fall asleep, it's still 30-35C outside.  Turn the AC off, and I'll be sweating in 30 minutes.

 

The house isn't a small space that heats up fast, like a vehicle, and insulated much better than any vehicle, with 3+ meter ceilings.

 

You guys a crack up with all your BS.

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Funny that doesn't work in the house like that.  After I fall asleep, it's still 30-35C outside.  Turn the AC off, and I'll be sweating in 30 minutes.

 

The house isn't a small space that heats up fast, like a vehicle, and insulated much better than any vehicle, with 3+ meter ceilings.

 

You guys a crack up with all your BS.

Just get some CBD oil,  you'll be out like a log. 

 

Problem solved.

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

A Touareg is neither noisy nor "rattly". That's totally ludicrous. Do you have any idea how heavy a Touareg is? And how well made? It's a joint Audi and Porsche project. Smelly and "rattly", tssssk. Obviously you've never driven one.

Yes, I know what a Touareg is and where it comes from.

Any diesel is smelly. Any one, no  matter how expensive or well made it may be. Would you happily sit behind the exhaust pipe of one? They are all smelly and dirty, it is just a fact.

Any diesel is more rattly than a petrol or BEV counterpart, it is not debatable.

I haven't driven a Touareg, but I have driven other "luxury" diesels and they all are noisy rattly and smelly. I have been in diesel S Class Mercs and 7 Series BMWs (as a passenger). and guess what: noisy rattly and dirty, albeit less so than a 700k Isuzu.

Are you really trying to say diesels are more refined than BEVs or petrol cars? Be serious, please.

[Cameroni]

22 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Any diesel is more rattly than a petrol or BEV counterpart, it is not debatable.

 

You're so full of BS, it's unreal. This is a review of the MG ZS EV, a BEV apparently:

 

 

"Also, weirdly, the car had a habit of making strange noises. Letting the car auto-brake in traffic, it made a terrible *CLUNK* noise when it came to a full stop. I have no explanation for this, however, I heard the same noise when I accelerated heavy from a complete stop.

 

https://gizmodo.com.au/2022/10/mg-zs-ev-review/

 

As for the Touareg being "rattly":

 

NEW TOUAREG SO QUIET

 

"Today for the first time I let the VW have a bit of speed, and surprised how quiet it is.

At between 140 and 150 mph there is such a small amount of road, wind or engine noise.

My wife and I could hold a normal quiet conversation, she was shocked when she saw the speedo at 145mph and was so serene..

Quieter than my last X5, RS6, BMW 740.

Quite impressed."

 

https://www.mytreg.com/threads/new-touareg-so-quiet.87370/

 

Nor was the Touareg "smelly". All totally untrue nonsense.

[HighPriority]

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

There's plenty of portable  electric power stations, you don't need an EV for that.

But I thought batteries were fire risks…?

Trolls… 🙄

[JBChiangRai]

All diesels sound like tractors from outside.

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

But I thought batteries were fire risks…?

Trolls… 🙄

Only in BEVs.   Fires, harm to the environment, cobalt & child labor is OK, for them to troll using their battery operated devices.

 

The hypocrisy 

[Gweiloman]

11 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

 

Plus, you won't feel like you're driving a dead remote.

Serious question. Have you driven an EV? The first time I did, I had a big smile on my face. The smoothness, silence, linear and instant torque. I was amazed. 
 

Now, if you have and still prefer an ICEV, that’s fine, up to you. But coming on here and telling EV owners that EVs are inferior based on some issues that occur rarely (driving around Thailand worrying about range, risk of fire) makes it a little difficult to take you too seriously.

 

At least you’re not a troll like that oil and gas guy.

[Fruit Trader]

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Reading comprehension, or are you simply ignoring the obvious he already stated ?

 

Like myself and many others that have solar.   The system is enough, hopefully for the house.  Mine is barely enough, and only because we are conservative with electric use after sunset.  Actually could use another 5kWh inverter and 10 more kWh of ESS, to really be enough.

 

But during the day, more than enough excess to keep the EVs charged up.  Which makes ROI even faster.   Not that ROI is important to myself, I just prefer the independence, and the saving is just a really nice plus.

 

Our solar system would cost exactly the same, whether having EVs or not.  Something that goes way over the anti EV/CH/Solar folks.   Spew the same old false narrative.   Tiring actually.

 

When someone says 95% of their driving is free because they charge from excess solar; one would expect the solar system to already have achieved ROI. This is because every watt consumed carries cost until ROI is achieved. Only a dreamer would think otherwise. 

 

Our electric lift truck goes on charge at around 4pm each day. Its charger is connected to a phase with no export solar attached. At this time of the day consumption is low in the work sheds and solar is derating but I would never consider power going to the charger to be free from cost until ROI has been achieved around Dec this year.

If someone wishes to view their excess capacity as free from cost when charging an EV then why stop at the EV, throw a refrigerator or even an AC into the free mix.

You can not fool all of the people all of the time. If one wishes to spend ten hours each day monitoring EV topics and telling the world how much money they are saving, be sure to have all your ducks in a row.
 

[atpeace]

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Reading comprehension, or are you simply ignoring the obvious he already stated ?

 

Like myself and many others that have solar.   The system is enough, hopefully for the house.  Mine is barely enough, and only because we are conservative with electric use after sunset.  Actually could use another 5kWh inverter and 10 more kWh of ESS, to really be enough.

 

But during the day, more than enough excess to keep the EVs charged up.  Which makes ROI even faster.   Not that ROI is important to myself, I just prefer the independence, and the saving is just a really nice plus.

 

Our solar system would cost exactly the same, whether having EVs or not.  Something that goes way over the anti EV/CH/Solar folks.   Spew the same old false narrative.   Tiring actually.

EV charging really wasn't in my plans but I realized after installation that it wasn't going to be an issue because the way solar produces energy.  I think many that don't have solar have a hard time wrapping their head around extra benefits that pop up after installation. 

 

For example after 8am in my case ( North facing panels - BTW-  IMO are best) I am able produce 1-4KW excess energy.  Can charge an EV and run water pumps that I usually used rarely because they use lots of watts, etc.  There isn't an extra cost because the extra solar production is needed for periods of high energy usage or little solar production when the EV and solar pumps would not be drawing energy.

 

Currently it is sunny at 8:30am and probably have about 4 KW of solar production waiting to find an appliance or whatever that needs energy.  Only wished I had a 10kw inverter vs 6.2 and about 4 more panels so I could fast charge an EV.  Not a big deal but the extra production would have only been around 20k baht.

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, atpeace said:

EV charging really wasn't in my plans but I realized after installation that it wasn't going to be an issue because the way solar produces energy.  I think many that don't have solar have a hard time wrapping their head around extra benefits that pop up after installation. 

 

For example after 8am in my case ( North facing panels - BTW-  IMO are best) I am able produce 1-4KW excess energy.  Can charge an EV and run water pumps that I usually used rarely because they use lots of watts, etc.  There isn't an extra cost because the extra solar production is needed for periods of high energy usage or little solar production when the EV and solar pumps would not be drawing energy.

 

Currently it is sunny at 8:30am and probably have about 4 KW of solar production waiting to find an appliance or whatever that needs energy.  Only wished I had a 10kw inverter vs 6.2 and about 4 more panels so I could fast charge an EV.  Not a big deal but the extra production would have only been around 20k baht.

Agree ... owning a BEV wasn't in our plan either.   Matter of fact, as stated many times, we bought a new ICEV, at the same time as contracting the new house and solar system.

 

Solar system being the minimum needed, as expensive enough, and at the time, no thought of owning a BEV.   Then the govt offered to pay us 240k baht to buy one, and we had solar on the way.   Made it a no brainer, and didn't even test drive the BEV before ordering, as already had the ICEV version.

 

No change in solar design after deciding to buy the BEV.  Solar would still produce the same amount, which provides enough excess to charge the EVs, on most days.   Sometimes barely enough to top up the batteries on crappy days.  Solar system was designed to meet the minimum needs of the house, 24/7, to be off grid.

 

So their ROI argument is irrelevant, unless the system was designed specifically for accommodating a BEV, which really isn't necessary, unless you do a lot of driving every day.  If you design a system to be 'off grid', you'll have more than enough excess to charge EVs, if doing normal driving, say ~20k kms a year, and more than most in TH.

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

How many days/weeks can you run an EV's air-conditioner without recharging? 

 

 

[atpeace]

48 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

When someone says 95% of their driving is free because they charge from excess solar; one would expect the solar system to already have achieved ROI. This is because every watt consumed carries cost until ROI is achieved. Only a dreamer would think otherwise. 

 

Our electric lift truck goes on charge at around 4pm each day. Its charger is connected to a phase with no export solar attached. At this time of the day consumption is low in the work sheds and solar is derating but I would never consider power going to the charger to be free from cost until ROI has been achieved around Dec this year.

If someone wishes to view their excess capacity as free from cost when charging an EV then why stop at the EV, throw a refrigerator or even an AC into the free mix.

 
You can not fool all of the people all of the time. If one wishes to spend ten hours each day monitoring EV topics and telling the world how much money they are saving, be sure to have all your ducks in a row.
 

Here is why it is free IMO and my situation.  I needed extra solar production to power the house during cloudy days and more importantly times that I use a lot of energy.  I think most people would install 2-5x their expected energy needs.  I installed 2x (6.5 KW) my ~3kw draw during certain times of the day.

 

I don't have an EV but told my sister and brother  in-laws yesterday they can charge their EVs anytime during the daytime for free at my place.  Why not - it is free for me.  

 

Your analogy of an AC and a fridge doesn't work if you slow down and think it through.  I could tell you why but I have a feeling you would just argue.  You can figure it out.  Hint - does your fridge and AC communicate with your solar system and determine when to and when not to draw power and even if they do wouldn't your food spoil and you would be quite hot at times if either stopped drawing energy.

 

You seem determined to make a point without thinking through your logic.  What you stated definitely makes sense for a  few individuals but not for most with solar. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1 by atpeace

[Gweiloman]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many days/weeks can you run an EV's air-conditioner without recharging? 

 

 

48 hours easily, if not more.

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many days/weeks can you run an EV's air-conditioner without recharging? 

You mean without driving, camping in the car ?   Already posted a vid on that on last page of this thread, and did a tester ourselves.   Posted a few times what the MG ZS uses with just the AC on, while shopping and or munching, as we do quite often for the dog in the car.

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

48 hours easily, if not more.

With how much charge remaining? 

[atpeace]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many days/weeks can you run an EV's air-conditioner without recharging? 

 

 

Good question.  My guess after watching some Tesla owners videos is 1 hour for every KWh of battery storage.  Would have to be careful if going to Khao Yai for a weekend.  

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

You mean without driving, camping in the car ?   Already posted a vid on that, and did a teste ourselves.   Posted a few times what the MG ZS uses with just the AC on, while shopping and or munching, as we do quite often for the dog in the car.

And how many weeks were you able to camp in the car running the AC without charging? 

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

And how many weeks were you able to camp in the car running the AC without charging? 

Think you can answer that...  I myself wouldn't replace my RV with a MG 🙂

 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And how many weeks were you able to camp in the car running the AC without charging? 

Weeks, seriously, why not months or years.   You're getting silly.   Who lives out of their car.   And would run the AC 24/7.    I'm thinking 2 days if really needed to, longer if below 35C and parked in the shade.

 

Also depends If we'll be making coffee or cooking on the induction cooker ... 

 

 

Edited September 1 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Think you can answer that...  I myself wouldn't replace my RV with a MG 🙂

 

I think it's a great concept. Unlike a daily-driver, when camping and whatnot, you're out of the vehicle during the day, and in the vehicle at night, so you could have at least some solar panels out to charge a bit during the day. 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Weeks, seriously, why not months or years.   You're getting silly.   Who lives out of their car.   And would run the AC 24/7.    I'm thinking 2 days if really needed to, longer if below 35C and parked in the shade.

I camped for a week or two regularly and camped in Montana for three months when I was 17. 

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Weeks, seriously, why not months or years.   You're getting silly.   Who lives out of their car.   And would run the AC 24/7.    I'm thinking 2 days if really needed to, longer if below 35C and parked in the shade.

I am not attacking EVs or you for having an EV, I am only trying to discuss what I think if a decent concept.

[atpeace]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think it's a great concept. Unlike a daily-driver, when camping and whatnot, you're out of the vehicle during the day, and in the vehicle at night, so you could have at least some solar panels out to charge a bit during the day. 

That is what I did with my camper during Covid.  Had about .4kw of panels on it which was perfect almost.  Not so much in the hotter months and 5 years ago batteries were expensive.  My AC in the camper would drain my 12v/100ah battery in 3-4 hours.  I just stopped using it.  If I did it today, I could set it up with a 48v/100ah battery (almost the same price as my small battery 5 years ago) and AC would run all night.

 

Also drop in a lifepo4 12v/100ah battery under the hood to replace the 12v acid.  I would be camping with enough to power for a small home.  I travel with exercise equipment too - I know a little over the top.

Edited September 1 by atpeace