Curious contrast in visa discussions: Thailand and Australia

[thaipara]

Reading about the Novak Djokovic visa kerfuffle in Australia I found striking the contrast with similar discussions about denied entry in these forums.

 

In particular, in these forums  one often reads in relation to such cases that entry to the country is entirely at the discretion of the relevant immigration officer and that being granted a visa is no guarantee of being allowed entry into a country. I don't deny either of these, but I find it interesting that neither comment has appeared in news/opinion articles (that I have read) in relation to this case.

 

Bing tells us "Djokovic’s legal team argued that border officials . . .  he did everything asked of him for quarantine-free travel." This sounds suspiciously like "you gave him the visa, so you have to let him in". Anyone one have an insight into how this claim could have prevailed? Or was typical lawyerly throwing as much as possible against the wall to see what sticks? Or is Australia just plain different in regard to letting folks in on visas?

[FritsSikkink]

He lied on his visa application

[Meat Pie 47]

8 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

He lied on his visa application

I like to watch the TV shows about border controls no matter if they are from Australia,New Zealand, the USA or Canada if you get cought lying on your visa form you get detained and send back on the next flight to your country

[soi3eddie]

Even if you did not lie on your visa application, the UK border officer still gets to decide whether or not you get to enter the country. The only thing the visa does is get you onto the plane to the UK. Right or wrong I'm not sure but would lean towards why issue a visa if it won't allow you guaranteed entry? I think there should be some sensible standards invoked. NoVaxx Djokovic will appeal his case in the courts and will likely be allowed entry but will the Aus Gov actually allow him to remain and participate in the tennis tournament?

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by soi3eddie

[bradiston]

9 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Even if you did not lie on your visa application, the UK border officer still gets to decide whether or not you get to enter the country. The only thing the visa does is get you onto the plane to the UK. Right or wrong I'm not sure but would lean towards why issue a visa if it won't allow you guaranteed entry? I think there should be some sensible standards invoked. NoVaxx Djokovic will appeal his case in the courts and will likely be allowed entry but will the Aus Gov actually allow him to remain and participate in the tennis tournament?

 

At immigration on entry, they probably have access to databases the visa issuing authorities don't. Maybe they don't like the look of the guy, they need to do a customs search, he's not carrying enough funds etc etc. Last line of defense is the entry point. It's face to face.

 

[steven100]

he lied to the authorities ....

[seajae]

he said he had stayed in one place for 14 days which was an outright lie as can be seen in the videos/pic of him at a couple of different places, also while he claims he had tested positive for covid on the 16th dec the computer records  say the test was negative not positive and also says he was tested on the 26th dec not the 16th, too many discrpencies so they told him to <deleted> off as they should

[allanos]

Whether or not Novak's agent made "administrative" errors on the application, or not, the onus rests upon him to see that the form has been completed accurately. If one's accountant or bookkeeper submits incorrect returns to the receiver of revenue, they are not the ones on the hook if one is audited.

 

I think the delays over this question, in Australia, have been inordinate, but the authorities have finally come to the right conclusion.

 

Why should Novak be treated any differently to anyone else, especially Aussie citizens.

 

The rules are the rules - for everyone!

[Uroller]

13 hours ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

I like to watch the TV shows about border controls no matter if they are from Australia,New Zealand, the USA or Canada if you get cought lying on your visa form you get detained and send back on the next flight to your country

What was the lie

[gearbox]

14 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

He lied on his visa application

No he didn't. The visa application and the covid-19 travel declaration are completely different things.

 

The most important documents for visas are financial means and a police check. The Australian visa application process is the same as pre covid, as is the Thai process - if one wants to get 2 months Thai tourist visa there are no covid paperwork requirements. Many people get their Australian visas cancelled at the border because it looks like they don't have enough means, are likely to overstay, or come to work on tourist visas. 

 

For example the Thai covid requirements are applied later via the CoE/Thailand Pass, which would be the equivalent of the Australian travel declaration. In fact you have to declare for the Thailand pass your travel history in the last 21 days - similar to the Australian travel declaration. You may or may not need visa to enter(e.g. visa exempt).

 

There is another Australian travel declaration ("Incoming passenger card") and people lie there all the time, but usually the penalties are fines. I doubt the Aussies living in the Isaan villages tick "yes" to the question "Have you ever been in contact with farms etc in the last 30 days".

[kennw]

16 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Even if you did not lie on your visa application, the UK border officer still gets to decide whether or not you get to enter the country. The only thing the visa does is get you onto the plane to the UK. Right or wrong I'm not sure but would lean towards why issue a visa if it won't allow you guaranteed entry? I think there should be some sensible standards invoked. NoVaxx Djokovic will appeal his case in the courts and will likely be allowed entry but will the Aus Gov actually allow him to remain and participate in the tennis tournament?

 

Unfortunately even his two lawyers at $50,000 per day each are now finding it hard to get around the law. 

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

No he didn't. The visa application and the covid-19 travel declaration are completely different things.

 

The most important documents for visas are financial means and a police check. The Australian visa application process is the same as pre covid, as is the Thai process - if one wants to get 2 months Thai tourist visa there are no covid paperwork requirements. Many people get their Australian visas cancelled at the border because it looks like they don't have enough means, are likely to overstay, or come to work on tourist visas. 

 

For example the Thai covid requirements are applied later via the CoE/Thailand Pass, which would be the equivalent of the Australian travel declaration. In fact you have to declare for the Thailand pass your travel history in the last 21 days - similar to the Australian travel declaration. You may or may not need visa to enter(e.g. visa exempt).

 

There is another Australian travel declaration ("Incoming passenger card") and people lie there all the time, but usually the penalties are fines. I doubt the Aussies living in the Isaan villages tick "yes" to the question "Have you ever been in contact with farms etc in the last 30 days".

Nor is border entry “ discretion” ever applied to VIPs. Think Applied only if you commit crime under questioning.

Coming into USA Houston years ago with a no - visa UK Passport no less. Clean & Smartly Dressed ; it was “ do you have a criminal record”, “ ever been arrested” , “ ever been fingerprinted” , “ been in military”, “ been denied credit” ? ? ? Just said No to everything and let in ….just as well as had quit my good job to mobilize to Iraq …….

 

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, Uroller said:

What was the lie

He said he had not traveled to other countries, when in fact he went from Serbia to Spain.

Alex Hawke, the government minister in charge of granting or denying visas, has rejected Novax'

visa on the grounds it is not in the public interest.

Djokovic is a poster boy for the anti-vaxxer movement. The rules for travel to Australia include a requirement for double vaccination, as do many other countries. IMO many Australians were outraged by the shifty scheme of exemption cooked up by Tennis Australia and his team, having suffered through multiple lockdowns and being urged to get vaccinated. They felt they were being taken for fools.

Djokovic's situation reminds me of when John McEnroe was disqualified in the 1990 Australian Open. He didn't think the rules applied to him either.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Lacessit

[bbko]

 

[FritsSikkink]

5 hours ago, gearbox said:

 if one wants to get 2 months Thai tourist visa there are no covid paperwork requirements.

You try to get in to the country without covid paperwork, it is not going to happen.

Edited January 15, 2022 by FritsSikkink

[simple1]

The minister has banned Novak on the grounds his anti vaxx stance poses a risk to Oz security / public order. it is a fact that some of his supporters in the previous Court case acted violently towards police, (I've previously mentioned Serb nationlistic agression is not helping him, his family are over the top with conspiracy claims,) During the last Court hearing some of his supporters wrapped themselves in the Serb flag and were very agressive, as have some anti vaxxers during demos in Oz. His lawyers are countering claiming banning him of the grounds of his anti vaxx position saying it is just as likely lead to public disorder. Three judges are reviewing his appeal this AM to make a final decision whether to deport him or not.

[Nemises]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:51 AM, FritsSikkink said:

He lied on his visa application

No he didn't. A wrong box on his entry form was by ticked by his agent and the joker signed it. Thousands of arrivals are caught ticking wrong boxes every year with no action taken, hence the reason why the Government's legal team hasn't even bothered mentioning that as a reason to deport him.

[StevieAus]

14 hours ago, gearbox said:

No he didn't. The visa application and the covid-19 travel declaration are completely different things.

 

The most important documents for visas are financial means and a police check. The Australian visa application process is the same as pre covid, as is the Thai process - if one wants to get 2 months Thai tourist visa there are no covid paperwork requirements. Many people get their Australian visas cancelled at the border because it looks like they don't have enough means, are likely to overstay, or come to work on tourist visas. 

 

For example the Thai covid requirements are applied later via the CoE/Thailand Pass, which would be the equivalent of the Australian travel declaration. In fact you have to declare for the Thailand pass your travel history in the last 21 days - similar to the Australian travel declaration. You may or may not need visa to enter(e.g. visa exempt).

 

There is another Australian travel declaration ("Incoming passenger card") and people lie there all the time, but usually the penalties are fines. I doubt the Aussies living in the Isaan villages tick "yes" to the question "Have you ever been in contact with farms etc in the last 30 days".

The same seems to happen in the UK, I have watched a few TV programs Border Force or whatever where people are refused entry usually because they think they are going to work.

Recently a female Australian Chef was denied entry and sent back as she had her set of knives and recipes with her.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, Nemises said:

No he didn't. A wrong box on his entry form was by ticked by his agent and the joker signed it. Thousands of arrivals are caught ticking wrong boxes every year with no action taken, hence the reason why the Government's legal team hasn't even bothered mentioning that as a reason to deport him.

If you tick the wrong box and sign it you are lying as it is a legal document. That is why you should read before you sign

[Nemises]

57 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you tick the wrong box and sign it you are lying as it is a legal document. That is why you should read before you sign

The point is that everyone who ticks a wrong box or signs an incorrectly completed entry form is not deported. 
 

Novak’s incorrectly completed entry form was not relevant to his court case or this topic. 
 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Nemises

[bbko]

24 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Novak’s incorrectly completed entry form was not relevant to his court case or this topic. 

He's been proven to be a liar when it come to covid, so hard to believe he made a innocent mistake.

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, bbko said:

He's been proven to be a liar when it come to covid, so hard to believe he made a innocent mistake.

Yes, agree he is a liar, but once again, his lies on the entry form has nothing to do with the Aus government wanting to deport him.  
 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Nemises

[Greenwich Boy]

Just a personal comment. I have a British passport but my family live in Queensland. I have had two jabs and a booster but have been unable to visit them for over two years without very expensive and almost impossible to obtain hotel quarantine. I do not want to make a pro vaccine statement but if there are entry rules then they should be applied to all.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, gearbox said:

No he didn't. The visa application and the covid-19 travel declaration are completely different things.

Exactly. Travel/entry regulations can change at short notice so they are not embedded in the visa process. He was subject to the rules of entry at the time of travel, not the time of visa application.

I think her can be little dispute that he tried to circumvent the regulations.  If he had been serious about the situation he would have been vaccinated well before he was due to travel.

Who in their right mind would rely on obtaining a positive test just a couple of weeks before he was due to go, the Australians have every right to revoke the visa.

He is only still there due to his resources, normal people would have been on the next flight out without any opportunity to initiate legal proceedings.

[ripstanley]

He has lost his appeal and will be leaving Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-16/novak-djokovic-live-updates-visa-cancellation-court-hearing/100758964

[4MyEgo]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:36 PM, allanos said:

The rules are the rules - for everyone!

The question is are the rules right and when should they be amended.

 

An example would be, if Djokovic was infected on 16 December 2021 as he says he was and could prove it, wouldn't it be prudent to allow him entry ?

 

I ask the above because I read that if you have previously been infected naturally your immune as you have equal or more antibodies than us who have been double vaccinated.

 

Australia from my understanding doesn't allow or recognise those who have been naturally infected with Covid to enter the country, i.e. you must be vaccinated, so it's mandatory, is this right, not in my opinion, this is where one has too much power for their own good and not the interest of the people.

 

What I find funny is all of the nit picking, "rules are rules" and no body questions the logic of it all, yes people lie, that is a given, and yes people make mistakes, that is a given, but what I see is a bloke who has been to Australia many times over, is of good character and is the best tennis player in the world who wanted to compete in the Australian Open to become the best player in the world ever after his 21st grand slam, i.e. if he won, from my understanding, however unless he was vaccinated, Australia wasn't going to allow him in, even if he won his appeal, because the Minister for Immigration has the right to over rule any courts judicial ruling, that in it's self is scary and way too much power for my liking.

 

Also wanted to point out that he wasn't a security risk or threat to Australia in my opinion as Omicron has been running rampant there for a couple of months.

 

I believe this was politically motivated with an election looming 2022, and because he is a high profile person and is said to be an "anti-vaxer" (labelled as person who goes against the grain), in my terms of the meaning someone who stands up for their rights, but hey, I think he found out today that he didn't have any under Australia's rules which is pretty much the same for all of those sleeping Aussies, you know the ones that don't give a rats a$$ long as their making money to pay off their huge mortgages and other debts.

 

I believe Djokovic won in showing the world what a Nanny State Australia really is, I mean look at the USA, from my understanding doctors can still work if unvaccinated, however they must have been previously infected with the virus and recovered as they recognise that prior infection is as equal or better than being double dosed, go figure. 

[gearbox]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

Exactly. Travel/entry regulations can change at short notice so they are not embedded in the visa process. He was subject to the rules of entry at the time of travel, not the time of visa application.

I think her can be little dispute that he tried to circumvent the regulations.  If he had been serious about the situation he would have been vaccinated well before he was due to travel.

Who in their right mind would rely on obtaining a positive test just a couple of weeks before he was due to go, the Australians have every right to revoke the visa.

He is only still there due to his resources, normal people would have been on the next flight out without any opportunity to initiate legal proceedings.

Normal people....tourists are not allowed in Australia yet, and the Aussies can't be deported, can only be fined.  The travel declaration targets mainly Aussies.

[gearbox]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:36 PM, allanos said:

Whether or not Novak's agent made "administrative" errors on the application, or not, the onus rests upon him to see that the form has been completed accurately. If one's accountant or bookkeeper submits incorrect returns to the receiver of revenue, they are not the ones on the hook if one is audited.

 

I think the delays over this question, in Australia, have been inordinate, but the authorities have finally come to the right conclusion.

 

Why should Novak be treated any differently to anyone else, especially Aussie citizens.

 

The rules are the rules - for everyone!

The rules are rules, we are all equal,  but some are more equal than others.

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/australian-cricket-players-to-arrive-in-sydney-after-india-evacuation/71e88d72-c7e2-41eb-b5bc-442a528ed267

 

" The NSW Government conceded it did lift its strict cap of 3000 returned travellers to cater for the cricket players."

 

So the strict cap was not so strict for some more equal.

 

And some people like me are not able to go back for nearly two years...not a problem for me, but desperate people were bumped out of flights multiple times and forced to pay significant amounts to secure tickets.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:11 AM, soi3eddie said:

I'm not sure but would lean towards why issue a visa if it won't allow you guaranteed entry?

A visa never ever allows a guaranteed entry. For all countries it just allows you to get to an inbound immigration officer. It is always the discretion of the officer or his/her superiors to allow or refuse entry, or to reduce the permitted stay.

 

The fact that the vast majority of travellers with a visa are allowed entry is irrelevant. It is always possible to be refused entry
 

One purpose of applying for a visa is to ensure that you meet the conditions for entry. Another is to allow you on to the flight if you need a visa for entry, as airlines are responsible for checking and get rather large fines if they slip up and you are refused entry for not meeting the entry requirements.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, gearbox said:

Normal people....tourists are not allowed in Australia yet,

You would have to show me where I said "normal people" = "tourists".

I consider normal  people to be those that do not have a legal team ready to initiate proceedings at the drop of a hat.

Maybe you do and consider that to be normal.