55 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s no longer the Middle Ages, science and medicine have progressed. 
 

Many of the formerly common diseases and causes of death are now curable or avoidable.

 

Your characteristic view that ‘life sucks’ ignores the fact it hands down beats the alternative.

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

56 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Tens of millions of people will carry the grief brought by COVID for the rest of their life.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience you’ve suffered.

Given that I might join them now that covid has escaped into the community in NZ, nice try, but no cigar.

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The nurses in Australia are complaining that they are still in crisis and not coping. That's the only statistic that matters and lock downs or otherwise should be determined by medical experts, not politicians or uninformed pundits on the internet. Far, far, far more lives are being destroyed by the virus that vaccinations. We don't know what variant is causing the deaths and hospitalisations in Australia but it doesn't matter. They are still happening. Australia today has thousands of people in hospital, hundreds in ICU and about a hundred deaths.

 

In what way are lives "being destroyed" that overtakes those figures in importance? That's just political claptrap. 10% of Australia's population have now had the virus and a good many of those have long covid symptoms which effectively prevent them from working or functioning normally.

 

source: Radio National today.

While it's far too late to solve the nurse problem now, I sincerely hope the politicians responsible for allowing that situation to happen are punished at the next election. They've had at least 18 months to train enough nurses, but did nothing that I, or the nurses I know are aware of to recruit more local nurses. All that has happened is that, as I understand it, the overseas nurses that used to staff the hospitals were not able to enter the country because of covid restrictions- apparently they were not "essential" enough. Local people should have been incentivized to train instead. They didn't even get a decent pay rise till recently.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear of your cancer.

 

It does not change the fact, there is absolutely no need to suffer very many illnesses and wrt to COVID, tge chances of serious illness, hospitalization and death can be dramatically reduced with safe and effective vaccines.

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

Are you in daily physical pain? That would be the only reason to say cancer is worse than death. Mental pain may well be self-inflicted.

I've had four or five surgeries for bladder cancer, two for squamous cell carcinomas. I also have chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which may or may not be compromising my immune system.

It's about quality of life. If that is bad, I agree, life would suck for me as well. I'm just not sure how your statement relates to a pandemic which for the majority of people is entirely preventable.

 

23 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

I am very sorry that you had such an unfortunate and life-altering disease.   Cancer is a good example of what happens when our immune system isn't working particularly well.  One of the jobs it does is to destroy (actually it usually sends a signal to the cell to kill itself -- that's called apoptosis) those cells.   Since we have trillions of cells and most of those cells are dividing and producing new cells, mutations occur regularly and that results in a consistent crop of cancer cells which are killed.  It's done by the same immune system fighting viruses like covid.  Like Covid, when conditions are ripe, the immune system can no longer do its job.   With cancer, the immune system is tricked into not recognizing the cancerous cells, in Covid, the system is simply overwhelmed.   

 

On 1/24/2022 at 3:09 PM, Lacessit said:

IMO it is impossible to reconcile vaccinated and wilfully unvaccinated. It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

Changing belief is a Sisyphean  undertaking. 50% of Americans still believe in angels, and 1.4 billion Muslims believe their religion supersedes all others that preceded it.

Anti-vaxxers are very lucky coronavirus has a low death rate. They seem to be oblivious to the danger of long COVID, which affects the unvaccinated disproportionately. It would be interesting to see what would happen to beliefs if a variant with a 40% death rate stopped by.

I agree 100% with your first 2 sentences. However, I fundamentally disagree that it's "a matter of scientific fact against belief". Those that believe in the "science", IMO have not presented it in a way that is convincing enough to be believed by many. Shouting at us and spouting insults do nothing to change our mind.

Such was not the case with the ozone hole, and I doubt anyone came out against the real and apparently effective solution. As with climate change, the pro vaccine demographic need to do a better job of presenting their side to get everyone on board. As an example, I refused to get Pfizer as I don't trust the "science" on it, but when an alternative was finally approved and available, I signed up as soon as able to and have had my second dose of the same ( NOT Pfizer ) vaccine. I will be having the booster in due course. So I'm NOT anti vaccine at all- just anti Pfizer.

 

My laugh icon was for the second to last sentence- I doubt many are "oblivious" to anything to do with covid..

On 1/27/2022 at 7:11 AM, Jeffr2 said:

And the thousands of deaths happening due to covid every day are destroying the lives of millions for decades to come.  Much more devastating to them than just being told not to go to the bar for a few months.

 Lockdowns are about more than not going to the bar for a few months.

People have lost their life savings, their businesses, their lives have been ruined and they didn't even have the disease, all due to lockdowns.

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Are you in daily physical pain? That would be the only reason to say cancer is worse than death. Mental pain may well be self-inflicted.

I've had four or five surgeries for bladder cancer, two for squamous cell carcinomas. I also have chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which may or may not be compromising my immune system.

It's about quality of life. If that is bad, I agree, life would suck for me as well. I'm just not sure how your statement relates to a pandemic which for the majority of people is entirely preventable.

 

It didn't relate to the pandemic at all. It was in response to a specific statement by another poster with which I disagreed enough to respond in the way I did.

I sympathise with you about your medical problems, but I fundamentally disagree that mental anguish is a "self inflicted" problem.

I'm not going into the specific problems I have post op, but they are easily found with google as a side effect of prostatectomy, and are a constant reminder of everything I lost.

 

BTW, medical treatment for prostate cancer has progressed dramatically since I had my op many years ago, and had I needed treatment today, I'm sure I would be significantly less impacted. So just in case anyone was worrying about what I said, don't let that put you off seeking medical help.

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Lockdowns are about more than not going to the bar for a few months.

People have lost their life savings, their businesses, their lives have been ruined and they didn't even have the disease, all due to lockdowns.

 I'm well aware of the impact of lockdowns. And in the end, they are not much worse than the impact of the virus raging through the community. People have lost their lives, their families, their businesses, their parents. No easy answers.

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree 100% with your first 2 sentences. However, I fundamentally disagree that it's "a matter of scientific fact against belief". Those that believe in the "science", IMO have not presented it in a way that is convincing enough to be believed by many. Shouting at us and spouting insults do nothing to change our mind.

Such was not the case with the ozone hole, and I doubt anyone came out against the real and apparently effective solution. As with climate change, the pro vaccine demographic need to do a better job of presenting their side to get everyone on board. As an example, I refused to get Pfizer as I don't trust the "science" on it, but when an alternative was finally approved and available, I signed up as soon as able to and have had my second dose of the same ( NOT Pfizer ) vaccine. I will be having the booster in due course. So I'm NOT anti vaccine at all- just anti Pfizer.

 

My laugh icon was for the second to last sentence- I doubt many are "oblivious" to anything to do with covid..

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually do exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something essentially incontrovertible.

The fact is there are openly admitted ideological agendas surrounding covid science which have nothing to do with public health safety and everything to do with political control (if you doubt that, I strongly urge you to read Klaus Schwab's The Great Reset). When you have the head of the World Economic Forum applauding the covid pandemic as a great “opportunity” to push forward global socialist centralization and erase the last vestiges of individual liberty, any rational person can only question whether covid science is also being rigged to support special interests.

 

Social media is often looked down upon in this context, which is understandable as it is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays (apart from the behemoths which are powerful censorship tools). There are of course tons of BS out there, but also lots of compelling and raw information which a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing (something the supporters of institutionalized media seem to have trouble grasping).

An off-topic, conspiratorial post has been removed.   

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

On 1/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Lacessit said:

IMO it is impossible to reconcile vaccinated and wilfully unvaccinated. It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

Changing belief is a Sisyphean  undertaking. 50% of Americans still believe in angels, and 1.4 billion Muslims believe their religion supersedes all others that preceded it.

Anti-vaxxers are very lucky coronavirus has a low death rate. They seem to be oblivious to the danger of long COVID, which affects the unvaccinated disproportionately. It would be interesting to see what would happen to beliefs if a variant with a 40% death rate stopped by.

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .   

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative.....

9 hours ago, rumak said:

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .   

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative

The science won't change and neither will the "narrative". That term comes straight from social media. Those who continue with the virus is a hoax and the government is lying because they want more control will continue to have posts removed I suspect.

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

Here’s the difference between ‘faith/dogma’ and following the science.

 

When the data becomes more complete,  the science is updated and a new understanding follows.

 

Revision and refinement are fundamental to science, and the absolute antithesis of religion and religious faith/dogma.

 

 

Who would want to listen to a scientist who was incapable of changing his mind given updated research and data? Or, for that matter, who would want to listen to a conspiracy theorist or theologist who was incapable of changing his mind?

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It didn't relate to the pandemic at all. It was in response to a specific statement by another poster with which I disagreed enough to respond in the way I did.

I sympathise with you about your medical problems, but I fundamentally disagree that mental anguish is a "self inflicted" problem.

I'm not going into the specific problems I have post op, but they are easily found with google as a side effect of prostatectomy, and are a constant reminder of everything I lost.

 

BTW, medical treatment for prostate cancer has progressed dramatically since I had my op many years ago, and had I needed treatment today, I'm sure I would be significantly less impacted. So just in case anyone was worrying about what I said, don't let that put you off seeking medical help.

I have BPH as well as the other problems I mentioned, possibly I'll need a TURP in a couple of years.

I agree medical science has progressed, and I sympathise with your situation. Sounds ugly.

The medical profession is still feeling its way in terms of dealing with COVID. New vaccines, new therapies. I don't know if anyone has developed a useful prophylactic, despite all the BS about ivermectin.

One of the problems for good science in the COVID era is its collision with political imperatives and social media.

I have an ingrained skepticism about pharmaceuticals in Thailand, IMO many doctors here are just shills for the industry. I check side effects and interactions of every drug I am prescribed.

 

I also respect statistics which say in my age cohort I am far more likely to die or be impaired unvaccinated than vaccinated. Having had COVID, I think I am living proof of that, albeit a statistical sample of one.

 

Because you have had a bad time with medicos, that is no reason to reject everything to do with the medical profession from then on.

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

An interesting vid, a little off topic but relative.........

 

 

9 hours ago, rumak said:

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .    

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative.....

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand you and Ms Rumak are very much keeping to yourselves, and minimizing contacts. I am not sure how effective that will be, given the extreme infectiousness of the omicron variant. Take a look at what is happening in Australia, it's spreading like wildfire.

 

It's possible you have already been infected, and did not know. The only way to know for sure is if you consult the profession you prefer to avoid, and get tested for antibodies.

 

OTOH, having been vaccinated twice, and contracted COVID once, I consider I am fairly bulletproof, although I still take normal precautions, such as masks and hand washing. I play golf, go shopping, in general move freely.

 

It's a misrepresentation to say people are being jailed for not taking vaccines. They are being jailed for breaking laws such as breaches of quarantine. True, they are being discriminated against, but that's because it's a legal minefield to allow potentially infectious unvaccinated people carte blanche in what they can do. If you were a dentist, would you want to work on the open mouth of an unvaccinated person?

 

OK, 40% death rate is scaremongering. Given the choice of an effective vaccine or bring it on, what would you do.

 

You're a decent person, we happen to think differently, coming from different backgrounds. Stay well.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

Negative incentives worked with the NYC police?  Threats of thousands quitting ended up being only a hand full.  Worked great.  And not coming back to bite them on the posterior.

 

10 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

Wow...freedom in social media for you means the ability to post misinformation.  It's the absolute worst place for credible info.  Luckily, those sources aren't allowed here.

On 1/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

People die, always have and always will. Some will die of covid and some will die because they can't drink safe water.

Life is unfair, and no one gave us a guarantee of a long and happy life.

Ultimately, life sucks and there are not many winners. It is what it is- end of.

Did you look for your intellectual doppelgänger on the Herman Cain awards?

No?

Thanks for folksy homespun wisdom in any event.

 

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It's possible you have already been infected, and did not know. The only way to know for sure is if you consult the profession you prefer to avoid, and get tested for antibodies.

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

The only time I would have a test is if I had symptoms. I have no desire to have my life impacted negatively by a false positive.

Obviously if i have no symptoms I'm not coughing or sneezing, and my contacts with others is limited anyway and when in town I wear a mask when around other people, so I'm unlikely to be passing it on even if I was infected with zero symptoms.

I'm sure you are not advocating 100% testing of everyone and tests every time anyone goes to the supermarket, so I fail to see why I ( or he ) would be any more of a threat than any other untested person with no symptoms in the same building.

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

The only time I would have a test is if I had symptoms. I have no desire to have my life impacted negatively by a false positive.

Obviously if i have no symptoms I'm not coughing or sneezing, and my contacts with others is limited anyway and when in town I wear a mask when around other people, so I'm unlikely to be passing it on even if I was infected with zero symptoms.

I'm sure you are not advocating 100% testing of everyone and tests every time anyone goes to the supermarket, so I fail to see why I ( or he ) would be any more of a threat than any other untested person with no symptoms in the same building.

Ummm...so he won't have to worry about passing it along to family and friends...endangering their lives and extending this pandemic.

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

Ummm...so he won't have to worry about passing it along to family and friends...endangering their lives and extending this pandemic.

Must be millions and millions of husbands and fathers that haven't been tested around the world. I doubt most of them spend their days worrying about it.

Such concern seems to be confined to a certain demographic.

 

Did he say anything to indicate that he might be infected? I didn't see such.

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Must be millions and millions of husbands and fathers that haven't been tested around the world. I doubt most of them spend their days worrying about it.

Such concern seems to be confined to a certain demographic.

 

Did he say anything to indicate that he might be infected? I didn't see such.

Actually, most do worry about infecting their family.  Putting them in the hospital or causing their death.  Some don't. 

 

Millions are getting tested even though asymptomatic.  Thus, the shortage of test kits globally.  My friend just took 6 boxes back with him to OZ as they aren't available.  My other friend did the same when she went to Canada last month.

 

The main reason for a test would be if you came into close contact with someone who had covid.  Like has happened to me 3 times in the past month.  I tested just to make sure I was OK, 3 days after the contact.

2 hours ago, transam said:

An interesting vid, a little off topic but relative.........

 

 

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.