The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

[Scott]

An off-topic, conspiratorial post has been removed.   

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

[rumak]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Lacessit said:

IMO it is impossible to reconcile vaccinated and wilfully unvaccinated. It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

Changing belief is a Sisyphean  undertaking. 50% of Americans still believe in angels, and 1.4 billion Muslims believe their religion supersedes all others that preceded it.

Anti-vaxxers are very lucky coronavirus has a low death rate. They seem to be oblivious to the danger of long COVID, which affects the unvaccinated disproportionately. It would be interesting to see what would happen to beliefs if a variant with a 40% death rate stopped by.

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .   

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative.....

Edited January 28, 2022 by onthedarkside
conspiracy & comment on moderation comments removed

[ozimoron]

9 hours ago, rumak said:

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .   

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative

The science won't change and neither will the "narrative". That term comes straight from social media. Those who continue with the virus is a hoax and the government is lying because they want more control will continue to have posts removed I suspect.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

Here’s the difference between ‘faith/dogma’ and following the science.

 

When the data becomes more complete,  the science is updated and a new understanding follows.

 

Revision and refinement are fundamental to science, and the absolute antithesis of religion and religious faith/dogma.

 

 

[ozimoron]

Who would want to listen to a scientist who was incapable of changing his mind given updated research and data? Or, for that matter, who would want to listen to a conspiracy theorist or theologist who was incapable of changing his mind?

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It didn't relate to the pandemic at all. It was in response to a specific statement by another poster with which I disagreed enough to respond in the way I did.

I sympathise with you about your medical problems, but I fundamentally disagree that mental anguish is a "self inflicted" problem.

I'm not going into the specific problems I have post op, but they are easily found with google as a side effect of prostatectomy, and are a constant reminder of everything I lost.

 

BTW, medical treatment for prostate cancer has progressed dramatically since I had my op many years ago, and had I needed treatment today, I'm sure I would be significantly less impacted. So just in case anyone was worrying about what I said, don't let that put you off seeking medical help.

I have BPH as well as the other problems I mentioned, possibly I'll need a TURP in a couple of years.

I agree medical science has progressed, and I sympathise with your situation. Sounds ugly.

The medical profession is still feeling its way in terms of dealing with COVID. New vaccines, new therapies. I don't know if anyone has developed a useful prophylactic, despite all the BS about ivermectin.

One of the problems for good science in the COVID era is its collision with political imperatives and social media.

I have an ingrained skepticism about pharmaceuticals in Thailand, IMO many doctors here are just shills for the industry. I check side effects and interactions of every drug I am prescribed.

 

I also respect statistics which say in my age cohort I am far more likely to die or be impaired unvaccinated than vaccinated. Having had COVID, I think I am living proof of that, albeit a statistical sample of one.

 

Because you have had a bad time with medicos, that is no reason to reject everything to do with the medical profession from then on.

[transam]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

An interesting vid, a little off topic but relative.........

 

 

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, rumak said:

i was tempted to give a laugh emoji... but I know you personally,  and know that you are a "nice, well-meaning person".     You are of course, like many, steadfast in your belief that this virus is a terrible menace to mankind,  and that the "news"  and "facts"  and "studies" are all the truth.    

 

I do not believe what the majority does,  and more and more others are starting to feel that way.  To even think of forcing people to put substances they do not want in their body or lock them up if they don't is about the craziest and scariest scenario i have ever witnessed .    

 

I do not "debate"  with others ...nor force them to do what i think they should to stay healthy.   Though I definitely think I know better when i look at the health of the "majority".  So obviously, y'all can repeat the same messages as for two years plus.   Would much prefer to hear from some that are now starting to challenge the narrative.....

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand you and Ms Rumak are very much keeping to yourselves, and minimizing contacts. I am not sure how effective that will be, given the extreme infectiousness of the omicron variant. Take a look at what is happening in Australia, it's spreading like wildfire.

 

It's possible you have already been infected, and did not know. The only way to know for sure is if you consult the profession you prefer to avoid, and get tested for antibodies.

 

OTOH, having been vaccinated twice, and contracted COVID once, I consider I am fairly bulletproof, although I still take normal precautions, such as masks and hand washing. I play golf, go shopping, in general move freely.

 

It's a misrepresentation to say people are being jailed for not taking vaccines. They are being jailed for breaking laws such as breaches of quarantine. True, they are being discriminated against, but that's because it's a legal minefield to allow potentially infectious unvaccinated people carte blanche in what they can do. If you were a dentist, would you want to work on the open mouth of an unvaccinated person?

 

OK, 40% death rate is scaremongering. Given the choice of an effective vaccine or bring it on, what would you do.

 

You're a decent person, we happen to think differently, coming from different backgrounds. Stay well.

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I fundamentally disagree that it has been presented properly, but it's all been discussed before and I doubt either of us are going to change each other's minds on that.

 

Negative incentives may force some to comply, but IMO will come back to bite the perpetrators on the posterior in the future.

Agree that we ain't for changing our minds.

 

Unless this forum is social media I don't use social media at all. So my opinion of Pfizer is nothing to do with "social media". I doubt I'm alone in that.

Negative incentives worked with the NYC police?  Threats of thousands quitting ended up being only a hand full.  Worked great.  And not coming back to bite them on the posterior.

 

[Jeffr2]

10 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

Wow...freedom in social media for you means the ability to post misinformation.  It's the absolute worst place for credible info.  Luckily, those sources aren't allowed here.

[cdemundo]

On 1/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

People die, always have and always will. Some will die of covid and some will die because they can't drink safe water.

Life is unfair, and no one gave us a guarantee of a long and happy life.

Ultimately, life sucks and there are not many winners. It is what it is- end of.

Did you look for your intellectual doppelgänger on the Herman Cain awards?

No?

Thanks for folksy homespun wisdom in any event.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It's possible you have already been infected, and did not know. The only way to know for sure is if you consult the profession you prefer to avoid, and get tested for antibodies.

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

The only time I would have a test is if I had symptoms. I have no desire to have my life impacted negatively by a false positive.

Obviously if i have no symptoms I'm not coughing or sneezing, and my contacts with others is limited anyway and when in town I wear a mask when around other people, so I'm unlikely to be passing it on even if I was infected with zero symptoms.

I'm sure you are not advocating 100% testing of everyone and tests every time anyone goes to the supermarket, so I fail to see why I ( or he ) would be any more of a threat than any other untested person with no symptoms in the same building.

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

The only time I would have a test is if I had symptoms. I have no desire to have my life impacted negatively by a false positive.

Obviously if i have no symptoms I'm not coughing or sneezing, and my contacts with others is limited anyway and when in town I wear a mask when around other people, so I'm unlikely to be passing it on even if I was infected with zero symptoms.

I'm sure you are not advocating 100% testing of everyone and tests every time anyone goes to the supermarket, so I fail to see why I ( or he ) would be any more of a threat than any other untested person with no symptoms in the same building.

Ummm...so he won't have to worry about passing it along to family and friends...endangering their lives and extending this pandemic.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

Ummm...so he won't have to worry about passing it along to family and friends...endangering their lives and extending this pandemic.

Must be millions and millions of husbands and fathers that haven't been tested around the world. I doubt most of them spend their days worrying about it.

Such concern seems to be confined to a certain demographic.

 

Did he say anything to indicate that he might be infected? I didn't see such.

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Must be millions and millions of husbands and fathers that haven't been tested around the world. I doubt most of them spend their days worrying about it.

Such concern seems to be confined to a certain demographic.

 

Did he say anything to indicate that he might be infected? I didn't see such.

Actually, most do worry about infecting their family.  Putting them in the hospital or causing their death.  Some don't. 

 

Millions are getting tested even though asymptomatic.  Thus, the shortage of test kits globally.  My friend just took 6 boxes back with him to OZ as they aren't available.  My other friend did the same when she went to Canada last month.

 

The main reason for a test would be if you came into close contact with someone who had covid.  Like has happened to me 3 times in the past month.  I tested just to make sure I was OK, 3 days after the contact.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, transam said:

An interesting vid, a little off topic but relative.........

 

 

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

The vid is comments from folk who try and develop stuff to save life.... Recommended...????

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

You make an excellent point...

Just kidding.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041182/life-expectancy-new-zealand-all-time/#:~:text=Life expectancy in New Zealand was just over 34 in,82 by the year 2020.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

[ozimoron]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

Nobody ever suggested that science can't be wrong. The climate change denialists and vaccine dodgers would have it that science is always wrong. It is the low information, anti science zealots who exhibit the religious fervor, not the other way round. You're just projecting here.

 

Science frequently changes as new information is discovered. You can see that in action every day is the major newspapers and science journals. For example, some scientists are now postulating that there is life on Mars and others are skeptical but neither side is claiming they are right.

 

On the other hand the climate denialist and anti vaccine idiots are never going to change their mind. They never do. I have yet to see a single one of those two (very related) groups ever admit they were wrong.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

“Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.”

 

And in one sentence you completely undermine your use of the term ‘Dogma’.

 

The continuing refinement of scientific knowledge is it’s strength and one that is openly accepted by followers of science.

 

If you have an alternative to science, let’s be having it.
 

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

Very bizarre thing to say.  No remorse for the milti millions who died?  And the families left behind?

 

You really should watch that video....

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

A great deal of similarity because those who fall for the fake news, don't care, or don't believe in science are covid and climate change deniers.  Same kind of person.  Same mentality.

 

The rest of us believe in science.  Probably due to their efforts, you're still alive.

[Lacessit]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

 

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

Some friends had a family Xmas get together in Europe.  25 people or so.  All were required to get tested before coming.  Just to make sure and not infect each other.  Makes sense.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

If I were in LOS I'd not be putting much faith in a test that might result in me having to pay to be isolated in some hotel at my own expense. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding such on other subforums.

I'd be avoiding taking the chance, UNLESS I had symptoms or was required to have one for some reason that I could not avoid.

[Jeffr2]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

If I were in LOS I'd not be putting much faith in a test that might result in me having to pay to be isolated in some hotel at my own expense. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding such on other subforums.

I'd be avoiding taking the chance, UNLESS I had symptoms or was required to have one for some reason that I could not avoid.

I know several that have tested positive recently.  All were allowed to quarantine at home.  Seems the big problem is if you test positive on arrival.  But not while you are here.  Unless very sick of course.

 

The Thai government is actually telling you to just stay home if you have coivd and it's not severe.

[ozimoron]

"When free and efficient drugs are available, should people be able to renounce it without consequences ... while we struggle to take care of other patients?" Paris AP-HP hospitals system chief Martin Hirsch said on French television on Wednesday.

 

Hirsch said he raised the issue because health costs are exploding and that the irresponsible behaviour of some should not jeopardise the availability of the system for everyone else.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/paris-hospitals-chief-sparks-debate-whether-unvaccinated-patients-should-pay-2022-01-27/