Don't mention the war?

[Mac Mickmanus]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

None of them have backed out of NATO and all of them have asserted that they will fight if Russia attacks any NATO country.

 

"NATO condemns in the strongest possible terms Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine - which is an independent, peaceful and democratic country, and a close NATO partner. The Alliance calls on President Putin to stop this war immediately, withdraw all his forces from Ukraine without conditions and engage in genuine diplomacy."

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

 

As the UK's health secretary, Sajid Javid, said only a few days ago in an interview on LBC: “If a single Russian toecap steps into Nato territory there will be war with Nato.”

On February 25, one day after Russian forces invaded Ukraine, Nato heads of government met in Brussels. They produced a statement deploring the invasion and pledging aid for Ukraine.

The alliance pledged to “continue to take all measures and decisions required to ensure the security and defence of all all ..
 

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/what-might-happen-if-russia-ukraine-war-spreads-to-a-nato-country/articleshow/90334645.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yes, I agree , NATO Countries shouldn't get involved unless Russia attacks a NATO County first .

We shouldn't join in with the war  , let them get on with it and we should stay out of the battles

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I agree , NATO Countries shouldn't get involved unless Russia attacks a NATO County first .

We shouldn't join in with the war  , let them get on with it and we should stay out of the battles

I draw your attention to the NATO statement made 3 days ago which included "Ukraine - which is an independent, peaceful and democratic country, and a close NATO partner."

[frantick]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I draw your attention to the NATO statement made 3 days ago which included "Ukraine - which is an independent, peaceful and democratic country, and a close NATO partner."

Ukraine has been at war for many years now. Against many of its own citizens. It's also one of the most corrupt European nations. Not a bastion of peaceful, democracies. Also, the West's history of trying to create democracies has not gone well. 

 

My argument is only to reduce casualties from the current situation. Pulling in the West will surely not produce this result, and it doesn't take a 5 star General to deduce that. 

 

If Russia stops at Ukraine, it's just one more land mass that has a shi..y government like so many others; some democracies included. 

 

If Russia doesn't stop at Ukraine, then we have no choice, I suppose. This would be the worst outcome for everyone. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I draw your attention to the NATO statement made 3 days ago which included "Ukraine - which is an independent, peaceful and democratic country, and a close NATO partner."

Yes, I know , Ukraine isnt a member of NATO and thus NATO Countries are under no obligation to join in the war to defend them 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, frantick said:

Ukraine has been at war for many years now. Against many of its own citizens. It's also one of the most corrupt European nations. Not a bastion of peaceful, democracies. Also, the West's history of trying to create democracies has not gone well. 

 

My argument is only to reduce casualties from the current situation. Pulling in the West will surely not produce this result, and it doesn't take a 5 star General to deduce that. 

 

If Russia stops at Ukraine, it's just one more land mass that has a shi..y government like so many others; some democracies included. 

 

If Russia doesn't stop at Ukraine, then we have no choice, I suppose. This would be the worst outcome for everyone. 

It's only the fascists in those democracies that have been a problem since they aren't in the majority and need to resort to non-democratic means to gain or hold power. It's not just the West, Russia has the same problem.

[Lacessit]

22 minutes ago, frantick said:

 

If Russia doesn't stop at Ukraine, then we have no choice, I suppose. This would be the worst outcome for everyone. 

Hitler didn't stop at Poland. He bided his time, then launched Operation Barbarossa. Putin is no different, he won't stop at Ukraine. If he wins.

As Norman Schwarzkopf said of Saddam Hussein, he is not a military man. The logistic weakness of the Russian army has been exposed for everyone to see, and Ukraine is a repeat of Afghanistan, only ten times worse.

On top of that, Putin never anticipated how crippling sanctions would be. He obviously thought Europe and the US were weak and divided. Russia is a small economy, compared to the US, Europe and China. It's basically broke, Russians will start going hungry if he keeps devoting what rubles he has to his military, which is already finding out the supply chains from the West have dried up.

Another unintended consequence of Putin's war is the effect of it on Ukrainian GDP. It is forecast to fall by 45%, and a lot of that was food going to Russia. Farmers can't plough and harvest fields if there are tanks running all over them.

[rott]

On 3/26/2022 at 2:34 PM, Lacessit said:

History shows Putin was a senior KGB officer, earned a living as a taxi driver after the break up of the USSR, then worked his way into power via alliances with the oligarchs and the Russian mafia. The title of Vozhd has meaning for both entities.

Putin has repeatedly stated his desire to see the USSR restored. That is his obsession. According to him, life in Russia was better then.

No-one who opposes him is going to be part of his advisory group, so his obsession is reinforced by the yes-men around him. If he is still rational, it must be difficult to cope with the intrusion of reality - an invasion not going to plan, the crippling sanctions, the losses on the field of battle. I doubt his advisers are willing to put their heads on the block by telling him the actual situation.

 

Not a troll post Lacessit, but your reading of events in your OP on 26th March - is there much of a change.?

Is Russia faring better or worse now than then.?

 

LOL I should have started at the end before posting.

Your recent post above largely answers my question.

I am essentially a glass half-full type, and I worry that he will come out of it smelling of roses.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You may be right, but the only price inflation I have seen in Thailand is the cost of gasoline and pork.. All the foodstuffs I buy at the local markets are the same price, or cheaper in season.

Condo rentals and ownership costs AFAIK are heading south, not north.

If you think recovery is going to be hard, the Russians are going to find it even harder. Their economy is wrecked, and if they default on debt in the next month, the ruble will go even further down the toilet. The only businesses that will deal with them will be Chinese, and they will be turning the screws hard.

I think you underestimate the impact the loss of all those "soft" Western technologies will have, half their commercial aircraft will be cannibalized for parts in the coming year.

 

The nightmare of all dictators is when their people turn on them. Just ask Mussolini, Ceausescu and Ghaddafi.

Inflation would actually suit me, after years of getting SFA return on investments.

That may be true in Thailand, but in western countries inflation is only beginning, and housing costs skyrocketing ( there was a small decrease in house prices last week here, but not expected to last ). NZ hasn't built enough houses for decades, unlike Thailand.

 

The Russians have lived a far harder life not so long ago than westerners could imagine, so they can do so again, if they have to.

 

I don't underestimate anything. I've been saying for ages that our over reliance on technology is going to lead to tears, and I may yet see that come to pass in the near future. Unfortunately, despite avoiding technology as much as possible ( don't own one of those so called smart phones, use cash instead of paywave etc ) I'll suffer just as much as any tech obsessed when it all falls down.

 

More than the Russian economy is wrecked. Printing money during covid mandates is going to bite western countries badly IMO.

 

IMO the Russian people are far from turning on Putin, and as the west increases the pressure are likely to support him more, IMO. When threatened by outside forces, tribes usually put aside differences to survive. IMO making ordinary Russians suffer is going to have the opposite effect to what the west wants.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

It's only the fascists in those democracies that have been a problem since they aren't in the majority and need to resort to non-democratic means to gain or hold power. It's not just the West, Russia has the same problem.

Ah, so it's all the "fascists" fault for ruining those perfect "democratic" countries, LOL. Nothing to do with awful, incompetent politicians then?

No prizes for guessing which particular "fascist" is being referenced in a western country.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Another unintended consequence of Putin's war is the effect of it on Ukrainian GDP. It is forecast to fall by 45%, and a lot of that was food going to Russia. Farmers can't plough and harvest fields if there are tanks running all over them.

I'm pretty sure that Russia exports a lot of food- wheat etc. Can't see them starving.

 

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/RUS/Year/LTST/TradeFlow/Export/Partner/by-country/Product/16-24_FoodProd

In 2019, the top partner countries to which Russian Federation Exports Food Products include Kazakhstan, Belarus, China, Ukraine and Turkey.

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, frantick said:

If Russia doesn't stop at Ukraine, then we have no choice, I suppose. This would be the worst outcome for everyone. 

And it won't - the main reason for that is that the sanctions imposed on Russia are unlikely to be removed simply because the war ends.  I believe they will stay in place; until Russia gives back any/all land it has taken including Crimea, pays full reparations for all the damage they have done and submits all and submits all those suspected of war crimes.  I think its highly unlikely they will do any of those things so the sanctions will continue - crippling Russia.  They are likely to lash out at some point, just as Germany did in 1939. The only difference is that The Treaty of Versaiilles arguably went too far and sowed the seeds for a bigger conflict.  Russia deserves even harsher treatment in my opinion - if only to cause the collapse of the Putin regime.

 

Much better that the free world, not necessarily NATO, gets involved now. Yes, there will be more casulaties but at the moment the free world is playing god and deciding the nationality of those that die in the hope they will fight what is really Europe's war, for them. If any future conflict goes nuclear, that will clearly be disastrous for all sides but what are we to do? Cow Tow to Russia? Allow Putin to continue doing whatever he wants?

 

There's going to be a showdown with Russia at some point whatever the outcome of the current conflict. Backs were turned when Russia took Crimea, very little has been done about the murders Putin's henchmen have committed around the world etc. etc. - there now seems to be an appetite to act against Russia, I think that will continue. 

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, frantick said:

It's also one of the most corrupt European nations. Not a bastion of peaceful, democracies.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Ukraine only got rid of Putin's puppet in 2014. They expressed a clear intent to join the EU then and they still do now.  They have stated that they see themselves as a part of Europe, not the Russian Federation or any form of alliance with that group.  A democracy can only truly be created by a country's citizens and the people of Ukraine made it very clear what they wanted in 2013/14.

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I agree , NATO Countries shouldn't get involved unless Russia attacks a NATO County first .

We shouldn't join in with the war  , let them get on with it and we should stay out of the battles

Yeah right, let's ignore the fact drunken Russian soldiers are murdering innocent civillians. Let's ignore that they are raping 14 year old girls then slitting their throats, bombing hospitals, theatres and railway stations full of fleeing civillians - after all, its none of our business is it?

 

I wonder what your thoughts would be if one of those 14 year old girls was your daughter/grandaughter?

 

Disgraceful attitude!

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so it's all the "fascists" fault for ruining those perfect "democratic" countries, LOL. Nothing to do with awful, incompetent politicians then?

No prizes for guessing which particular "fascist" is being referenced in a western country.

No prizes sought, snookums.

 

Donald Trump Began to 'Resemble Putin' As President: Ex-Adviser Fiona Hill (newsweek.com)

Quote

 

A former top advisor to Donald Trump has described how the former president began to "resemble" Russia's Vladimir Putin during his time in the White House, speaking frequently about how he wanted to remain in power beyond the congressional two-term legal limit.

Fiona Hill, the former senior director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council, gave a damning indictment of how Trump handled foreign policy issues during his time as president in a lengthy profile for The New York Times.

In the article, Hill described how Trump started to mimic his Russian adversary during his four years in power, especially with regards to how he treated Ukraine—a country she said Trump used as a "plaything for his own purposes" after viewing it as a political enemy.

 

 

There is also the dangerous irony that a pro Putin fascist may soon win leadership in France, a major Nato player. That would be tragic for Ukraine and the west. 

 

 France’s Marine Le Pen Is the Putin Fan Who Could Screw Us All (thedailybeast.com)

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Yeah right, let's ignore the fact drunken Russian soldiers are murdering innocent civillians. Let's ignore that they are raping 14 year old girls then slitting their throats, bombing hospitals, theatres and railway stations full of fleeing civillians - after all, its none of our business is it?

 

I wonder what your thoughts would be if one of those 14 year old girls was your daughter/grandaughter?

 

Disgraceful attitude!

If you are concerned about atrocities, why didnt European Countries step in  when there was genocide happening recently in Myanmar , with about 1 million people being chased off their land and murdered , raped and killed or the continuing atrocities occurring in Yemen , in both Countries, far worse things happened than are now happening in Ukraine .

   Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you are concerned about atrocities, why didnt European Countries step in  when there was genocide happening recently in Myanmar , with about 1 million people being chased off their land and murdered , raped and killed or the continuing atrocities occurring in Yemen , in both Countries, far worse things happened than are now happening in Ukraine .

   Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

Without getting into the vagueness of that post (one million dead or what?) it's just the typical whataboutism. Because of fill in the blank, there should be no response to Ukraine. That doesn't wash! 

 

Next 

,,,,

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Without getting into the vagueness of that post (one million dead or what?) it's just the typical whataboutism. Because of fill in the blank, there should be no response to Ukraine. That doesn't wash! 

 

Next 

,,,,

Just responding to allegations of my "disgracefully attitude " from people who couldn't care less about worse atrocities occurring in other parts the World .

   If we want to stop atrocities, then all atrocities should be stopped, rather than just selecting atrocious happening to people because they are Caucasian 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just responding to allegations of my "disgracefully attitude " from people who couldn't care less about worse atrocities occurring in other parts the World .

   If we want to stop atrocities, then all atrocities should be stopped, rather than just selecting atrocious happening to people because they are Caucasian 

Your observation is not original and I think all thoughtful people have thought of it themselves, but this topic is about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you are concerned about atrocities, why didnt European Countries step in  when there was genocide happening recently in Myanmar , with about 1 million people being chased off their land and murdered , raped and killed or the continuing atrocities occurring in Yemen , in both Countries, far worse things happened than are now happening in Ukraine .

   Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

I was wondering when the racism card would be played. Classic look over there.

AFAIK the Burmese and Yemen military are not trying to invade anywhere else,

these are civil wars.

Most countries feel the need to help Ukraine because Putin is a dictator along the lines of Stalin and Hitler, he would not be stopping at Ukraine if he wins.

[Jingthing]

Just now, Lacessit said:

I was wondering when the racism card would be played. Classic look over there.

AFAIK the Burmese and Yemen military are not trying to invade anywhere else,

these are civil wars.

Most countries feel the need to help Ukraine because Putin is a dictator along the lines of Stalin and Hitler, he would not be stopping at Ukraine if he wins.

Really in most cases comparing to Hitler means you lost the debate, but in the case of Putin and his invasion and war crimes in Ukraine, the comparison is entirely accurate.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm pretty sure that Russia exports a lot of food- wheat etc. Can't see them starving.

 

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/RUS/Year/LTST/TradeFlow/Export/Partner/by-country/Product/16-24_FoodProd

In 2019, the top partner countries to which Russian Federation Exports Food Products include Kazakhstan, Belarus, China, Ukraine and Turkey.

When a country with an economy as small as Russia's devotes on average 16% of its  budget to its military arm, something's got to give. As a comparison, New Zealand spends just 1.5%. My guess would be Russian military expenditure is even higher now.

You are quoting 2019 data, this is 2022 with sanctions on a lot of things, including transportation and the technologies required to grow and harvest food. Due to the corruption in Russia, the agricultural sector is probably underfunded.

You think Putin cares if his fellow Russians go hungry? Stalin didn't, he and Lysenko screwed up the farm sector for decades. Putin is no different to Stalin.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I was wondering when the racism card would be played. Classic look over there.

AFAIK the Burmese and Yemen military are not trying to invade anywhere else,

these are civil wars.

Most countries feel the need to help Ukraine because Putin is a dictator along the lines of Stalin and Hitler, he would not be stopping at Ukraine if he wins.

Ah right , so its absolutely fine and OK to commit genocide , murder and rape  ,as long as you are doing it in your own Country and not in a neighboring Country .

 The Russian army needs to go back to Russia and commit genocide in their own Country and not do it abroad 

[Lacessit]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Ah right , so its absolutely fine and OK to commit genocide , murder and rape  ,as long as you are doing it in your own Country and not in a neighboring Country .

 The Russian army needs to go back to Russia and commit genocide in their own Country and not do it abroad 

I did not say it was right, just that your comparison is invalid.

Totalitarian regimes do use their military against their civilian population, you may be predicting Russia's future.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

54 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you are concerned about atrocities, why didnt European Countries step in  when there was genocide happening recently in Myanmar , with about 1 million people being chased off their land and murdered , raped and killed or the continuing atrocities occurring in Yemen , in both Countries, far worse things happened than are now happening in Ukraine .

   Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

The Myanmar treatment of Rohingya was of course abysmal. The west took action but it was inadequate. The situation in Yemen and the background battles between Saudi Arabia and Iran is having terrible impacts on the country.

One answer may be that as a westerner we do relate more to suffering of people who are a bit more like us. Who we can relate to. The other is that it is happening on the boundary of the western world of which we are familiar and there is a clear fight between western democratic and authoritarian values. The other is the affect on our lives such as higher petrol prices and grain prices. The other is the fact of a focal point on an evil individual being Putin who many of us have thought was evil and corrupt long before this. The other is the fact that Russia is a nuclear power and for the first time in a long time there use has been threatened.

You may be able to find some inconsistencies and contradictions in the moral outrage and general concern. Hopefully though we can all concur that the specifics of this case should involve moral outrage and general concern. 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

Not at all, I was/am just as disgusted that world did/does nothing about the situation in Myanmar and any other conflict. I'm pretty sure I've discussed my feelings on Myanmar on this forum.

 

The UN did what they always do - sat and talked, passed resolutions but basically, did nothing.  However, China could stop that conflict without firing a gun but they've also done nothing.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

just responding to allegations of my "disgracefully attitude " from people who couldn't care less about worse atrocities occurring in other parts the World .

And how do you derive that information?  Seeing as you have no idea how I feel about other conflicts - you need to retract that comment. 

 

This thread is about Ukraine but just to clarify what I could 'care less about'. I think there are several conflicts around the world where the rest of us have stood by and done nothing.  We have a body that is very good at talking and voting but absolutely useless at anything else - that body is the UN Security Council.  It just so happens that I believe that the UN should act as the world's policeman to protect the innocents all around the world and stop conflicts.

 

I'll go no further than that because this thread is about Ukraine but please don't make statements based purely on your thoughts and without any evidence whatsoever - you are totally wrong on that.

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

  It just so happens that I believe that the UN should act as the world's policeman to protect the innocents all around the world and stop conflicts.

 

 

The Russian Federation paid $69 million in membership fees to the UN in 2021. The contribution of the US was $11.6 billion.

I suspect the Russian contribution in 2022 would be even less.

I hate to admit it, but Trump was right. Europe etc. should be putting far more into the defenses of their democracies, America can't be the world's policeman forever.

[KhaoYai]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The Russian Federation paid $69 million in membership fees to the UN in 2021. The contribution of the US was $11.6 billion.

I suspect the Russian contribution in 2022 would be even less.

I hate to admit it, but Trump was right. Europe etc. should be putting far more into the defenses of their democracies, America can't be the world's policeman forever.

I agree with you but I said the UN, not the US.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm pretty sure that Russia exports a lot of food- wheat etc. Can't see them starving.

 

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/RUS/Year/LTST/TradeFlow/Export/Partner/by-country/Product/16-24_FoodProd

In 2019, the top partner countries to which Russian Federation Exports Food Products include Kazakhstan, Belarus, China, Ukraine and Turkey.

Really? Russia doesn't covet Ukraines' resources?

 

https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/are-ukraines-vast-natural-resources-a-real-reason-behind-russias-invasion-323894-2022-02-25

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so it's all the "fascists" fault for ruining those perfect "democratic" countries, LOL. Nothing to do with awful, incompetent politicians then?

No prizes for guessing which particular "fascist" is being referenced in a western country.

I'm referring to the political "system", not incompetent politicians. For example voter repression laws and tactics like jailing the opposition or fabricating issues to influence voters. It's fascists who do that rather than submit to a free and fair election. The result is wars.