Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

When and how do you envisage using the NFC card? I can’t think of a situation whereby it’s more convenient and practical than the actual car keys  themselves.

Like when your remote dies (or gets loss) or the remote battery goes dead while the wife or I are away from home in car...or even at home.   Pull the NFC card out of your wallet, start/stop the car just like if the remote was working.  And probably some other uses I just have thought about yet 

 

And I know you might say just use the app, well, I haven't even loaded that app yet and since it only works if  your car and your smartphone can make an internet connection to the server in China if you are parked in a building and the car isn't receiving any mobile signal (or your phone)/no connection to the server you can use the NFC card to start the car if the remote stops working.

[Alotoftravel]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

your smartphone can make an internet connection to the server in China if you are parked in a building and the car isn't receiving any mobile signal (or your phone)/no connection to the server

When the car is turned off, does the car have internet connectivity always on  ?

I assume internet connection must be active regardless of the car “off “to gain entry.

 

If you are at home with a Wi-Fi , does the car always chose the Wi-Fi lan as first priority automatic  over cellular like our phones? use OTA Wi-Fi to download new version in the future ?

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Alotoftravel said:

When the car is turned off, does the car have internet connectivity always on  ?

I assume internet connection must be active regardless of the car “off “to gain entry.

 

If you are at home with a Wi-Fi , does the car always chose the Wi-Fi lan as first priority automatic  over cellular like our phones? use OTA Wi-Fi to download new version in the future ?

 

Yes...as you say the car must maintain cell/Wifi connection when turned off otherwise the BYD app wouldn't be able to work/talk to the car.   Just one of those things that is always working in the background whether the car is on or off.

 

And yes, I would assume Wifi takes priority over mobile connection just like how it operates on a smartphone.

[Gweiloman]

23 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

If you always carry a wallet, as I do, I think keeping an NFC card with your credit cards is a much neater solution than also having to carry a key.

 

23 hours ago, Pib said:

Like when your remote dies (or gets loss) or the remote battery goes dead while the wife or I are away from home in car...or even at home.   Pull the NFC card out of your wallet, start/stop the car just like if the remote was working.  And probably some other uses I just have thought about yet 

 

And I know you might say just use the app, well, I haven't even loaded that app yet and since it only works if  your car and your smartphone can make an internet connection to the server in China if you are parked in a building and the car isn't receiving any mobile signal (or your phone)/no connection to the server you can use the NFC card to start the car if the remote stops working.

Thanks. You’ve convinced me to take the card out of the car and maybe even make a 2nd card for emergencies. I’ve always kept the card in the car so that I could at least drive it in case I lose or misplace my keys. I still think that’s not a bad idea so getting a 2nd card for the wallet is an excellent idea as well.

[JBChiangRai]

On 12/1/2023 at 8:06 AM, BKKBike09 said:

Seems to me the Chinese EV companies are going full throttle to establish market dominance / build customer base as quickly as they can. I'd go so far as to say this is an unprecedented level of disruption in the Thai auto market. Good news for prospective buyers. Maybe not so good for existing owners who'll see their purchases undercut both on price and spec ... although I'd say that's inevitable anyway with EVs, thanks mainly to battery/charging technology advances.

 

Is there a 'Moore's Law' equivalent for EV batteries?

 

There is definitely a huge appetite for EV's here.  China is making it difficult for anyone to buy a non-Chinese EV by undercutting everyone else by 20-40%.  It's inevitable they will achieve market dominance.

 

Traditionally, those large Japanese organisations who have dominated the Thai auto market for decades are going to really struggle.  2023 could be a tipping point for them into unprofitability, for sure 2024 will be.  I think we will see consolidation in that market, provinces they have had lots of Toyota dealerships will close a lot of them.

 

What is going to be interesting is what happens in the secondhand market.  There is most definitely lower demand for new ICE vehicles already, that is likely to filter into the secondhand market and we could see values of secondhand ICE vehicles plummet, especially those ICE cars targeted by competitive Chinese EV's.  People who buy EV's generally love them and become huge fans, they tell their friends and people who hadn't considered one change their position and buy one, it's like a domino effect.

 

The Japanese have been very slow to market with EV's here and haven't had the models available to be able to commit to the production figures of future vehicles made here to get the incentive from the government, a triple whammy, not only the subsidy, but secondly, limited or zero model choice and thirdly, paying a 20% tax import premium on an already uncompetitive manufacturing cost makes the cars wildly uncompetitive.

 

The future is definitely EV and it appears to me it's Chinese EV here in Thailand.

 

As for Tesla, demand here in Thailand has completely evaporated.  The orders at the motor show prove that, zero to date, even with the refreshed Model 3. Outsold 10 to 1 by BYD in October.  They have lost the plot and the country.  A 20-25% price cut would make all the difference, but Tesla doesn't have the margins of BYD to play with.

[matchar]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

There is definitely a huge appetite for EV's here.  China is making it difficult for anyone to buy a non-Chinese EV by undercutting everyone else by 20-40%.  It's inevitable they will achieve market dominance.

 

Traditionally, those large Japanese organisations who have dominated the Thai auto market for decades are going to really struggle.  2023 could be a tipping point for them into unprofitability, for sure 2024 will be.  I think we will see consolidation in that market, provinces they have had lots of Toyota dealerships will close a lot of them.

 

What is going to be interesting is what happens in the secondhand market.  There is most definitely lower demand for new ICE vehicles already, that is likely to filter into the secondhand market and we could see values of secondhand ICE vehicles plummet, especially those ICE cars targeted by competitive Chinese EV's.  People who buy EV's generally love them and become huge fans, they tell their friends and people who hadn't considered one change their position and buy one, it's like a domino effect.

 

The Japanese have been very slow to market with EV's here and haven't had the models available to be able to commit to the production figures of future vehicles made here to get the incentive from the government, a triple whammy, not only the subsidy, but secondly, limited or zero model choice and thirdly, paying a 20% tax import premium makes the case wildly uncompetitive.

 

The future is definitely EV and it appears to me it's Chinese EV here in Thailand.

 

As for Tesla, demand here in Thailand has completely evaporated.  The orders at the motor show prove that, zero to date, even with the refreshed Model 3. Outsold 10 to 1 by BYD in October.  They have lost the plot and the country.  A 20-25% price cut would make all the difference, but Tesla doesn't have the margins of BYD to play with.

It's still hard to beat the value for money of a Toyota Yaris ATIV for 549,000 which is the top selling car in Thailand for a reason.

 

The only Chinese EV that can compete on price is the Neta V but that doesn't seem like a proper car to me and it might start falling apart in 5 to 10 years.

[BKKBike09]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There is definitely a huge appetite for EV's here.  China is making it difficult for anyone to buy a non-Chinese EV by undercutting everyone else by 20-40%.  It's inevitable they will achieve market dominance.

 

Traditionally, those large Japanese organisations who have dominated the Thai auto market for decades are going to really struggle.  2023 could be a tipping point for them into unprofitability, for sure 2024 will be.  I think we will see consolidation in that market, provinces they have had lots of Toyota dealerships will close a lot of them.

 

What is going to be interesting is what happens in the secondhand market.  There is most definitely lower demand for new ICE vehicles already, that is likely to filter into the secondhand market and we could see values of secondhand ICE vehicles plummet, especially those ICE cars targeted by competitive Chinese EV's.  People who buy EV's generally love them and become huge fans, they tell their friends and people who hadn't considered one change their position and buy one, it's like a domino effect.

 

The Japanese have been very slow to market with EV's here and haven't had the models available to be able to commit to the production figures of future vehicles made here to get the incentive from the government, a triple whammy, not only the subsidy, but secondly, limited or zero model choice and thirdly, paying a 20% tax import premium on an already uncompetitive manufacturing cost makes the cars wildly uncompetitive.

 

The future is definitely EV and it appears to me it's Chinese EV here in Thailand.

 

As for Tesla, demand here in Thailand has completely evaporated.  The orders at the motor show prove that, zero to date, even with the refreshed Model 3. Outsold 10 to 1 by BYD in October.  They have lost the plot and the country.  A 20-25% price cut would make all the difference, but Tesla doesn't have the margins of BYD to play with.

The Chinese companies also have the advantage of tacit state support / access to cheap finance from Chinese lenders. And the disadvantage of also being subject to influence by CCP: dominance of the auto industry here (or anywhere else) is an economic and political goal, so the Chinese companies, willingly or not, will weather initial losses to build market share in a way that Western / Japanese companies would not.

 

However, that said, EVs have a long way to go before they can erode the pick up and mass urban markets: there isn't the charging infrastructure in most (I'd say any) rabbit hutch condos. Also, loan delinquency in the auto sector is on the way up, so the 'average consumer' likely doesn't have the wherewithal to buy anything right now.

 

Where the Japanese companies are going to suffer big time is in the urban affluent / management-level sector: people who can charge at home and would be buyers of SUVs or higher end saloons like Accord / Camry. Once there are decent EV van options, then Alphard / VW / Kia will lose share there.

 

The government knee-jerk moves to keep electricity priced as low as possible is also helping the EV market.

 

Interesting times.  

[Gweiloman]

4 minutes ago, matchar said:

It's still hard to beat the value for money of a Toyota Yaris ATIV for 549,000 which is the top selling car in Thailand for a reason.

 

The only Chinese EV that can compete on price is the Neta V but that doesn't seem like a proper car to me and it might start falling apart in 5 to 10 years.

I don’t disagree with your first sentence. 6 years ago, I paid around 600k for a Mazda 2 HB. It was a good car, nifty, economical and problem free until about a year ago when it sometimes won’t detect the key and Mazda CM tried to give me all sorts of bs reasons like the Panasonic CR battery is fatter than Mazda CR battery (Mazda doesn’t make such batteries afaik). Situation got resolved in Mazda Yasothon by the family friend I sold it to. She’s loving the car as it suits her needs perfectly.

 

I recently shelled out a bit more for a Dolphin, 850k. You could say it’s a significant increase in percentage terms but not that much in absolute terms unless funds are tight. However, the Dolphin is in a completely different league, driving, performance and technology terms. 2 things lacking compared to the Mazda is no HUD and no rain wiper sensor. But the Dolphin has electric front seats, panoramic sunroof, fantastic infotainment system, phone app, much higher level of materials and finishing, comfor, performance… the list goes on.

So in my mind, the value for money is on par if not higher than that of ICEVs.

[Gweiloman]

14 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

The Chinese companies also have the advantage of tacit state support / access to cheap finance from Chinese lenders. And the disadvantage of also being subject to influence by CCP: dominance of the auto industry here (or anywhere else) is an economic and political goal, so the Chinese companies, willingly or not, will weather initial losses to build market share in a way that Western / Japanese companies would not.

 

However, that said, EVs have a long way to go before they can erode the pick up and mass urban markets: there isn't the charging infrastructure in most (I'd say any) rabbit hutch condos. Also, loan delinquency in the auto sector is on the way up, so the 'average consumer' likely doesn't have the wherewithal to buy anything right now.

 

Where the Japanese companies are going to suffer big time is in the urban affluent / management-level sector: people who can charge at home and would be buyers of SUVs or higher end saloons like Accord / Camry. Once there are decent EV van options, then Alphard / VW / Kia will lose share there.

 

The government knee-jerk moves to keep electricity priced as low as possible is also helping the EV market.

 

Interesting times.  

Another reason to thank China for improving our lives lol.

 

Well thought out post, hence the +1 from me. I have always stated that if one doesn’t have charging possibility or does frequent long journeys, then EVs might not be a suitable option. I’m slowly starting to change my mind about the first point, especially for city dwellers in places like Bangkok. An EV with a decent range of about 400 kms really only require charging once a week or so, it’s not really that difficult to spend 30-40 minutes per week at a fast DC CS, charging to about 80%. When one considers the cost savings, I think it can make good sense even.

 

 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Another reason to thank China for improving our lives lol.

 

Well thought out post, hence the +1 from me. I have always stated that if one doesn’t have charging possibility or does frequent long journeys, then EVs might not be a suitable option. I’m slowly starting to change my mind about the first point, especially for city dwellers in places like Bangkok. An EV with a decent range of about 400 kms really only require charging once a week or so, it’s not really that difficult to spend 30-40 minutes per week at a fast DC CS, charging to about 80%. When one considers the cost savings, I think it can make good sense even.

China Rocks ... 

 

saves us ฿3-10k a month, depending if at home or O&A, with added plus of driving a better performing vehicle.  Our Honda Wave sat in the driveway, drove it to put air and petrol in it   I actually enjoy driving the E-MB

  

 

Lotus's now having CSs, makes killing 30-45 mins easy.  

I don't think I'd ever need to get anywhere as far and as fast as possible, not to pop into a CS for 30 mins after 3+ hrs on Thai roads.   Hard the make 100 kms/1 hr before the wife has to P or is hungry sometimes.

 

Healthy also, as avoids deep vein thrombosis (DVT), and can never be too careful.

[JBChiangRai]

59 minutes ago, matchar said:

It's still hard to beat the value for money of a Toyota Yaris ATIV for 549,000 which is the top selling car in Thailand for a reason.

 

The only Chinese EV that can compete on price is the Neta V but that doesn't seem like a proper car to me and it might start falling apart in 5 to 10 years.

 

I think you need to drive a Neta, they drive superbly and are currently 10% cheaper than the Ativ.  I know which I would rather drive and if both available to hire, I would go for the Neta every time.

 

We will probably see more competitors in the 550k to 750k range, at 771k the MG EP+ is already a stunning car, and it's in the Altis/Civic space.  MG has a good reputation in the UK & EU, it's a shame they completely ruined their entry into the Thai market with badly manufactured, unreliable cars and appalling after sales service.  Consumers take a long time to trust a company with a prior bad reputation.

[matchar]

53 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I don’t disagree with your first sentence. 6 years ago, I paid around 600k for a Mazda 2 HB. It was a good car, nifty, economical and problem free until about a year ago when it sometimes won’t detect the key and Mazda CM tried to give me all sorts of bs reasons like the Panasonic CR battery is fatter than Mazda CR battery (Mazda doesn’t make such batteries afaik). Situation got resolved in Mazda Yasothon by the family friend I sold it to. She’s loving the car as it suits her needs perfectly.

 

I recently shelled out a bit more for a Dolphin, 850k. You could say it’s a significant increase in percentage terms but not that much in absolute terms unless funds are tight. However, the Dolphin is in a completely different league, driving, performance and technology terms. 2 things lacking compared to the Mazda is no HUD and no rain wiper sensor. But the Dolphin has electric front seats, panoramic sunroof, fantastic infotainment system, phone app, much higher level of materials and finishing, comfor, performance… the list goes on.

So in my mind, the value for money is on par if not higher than that of ICEVs.

I see your point but you are comparing a 6 year old Mazda with a brand new BYD.

 

And the 300k price difference is quite significant. I estimate you would need to drive around 200-300k km before you start saving money on fuel as the Yaris ATIV has really good fuel economy. (Advertised 23.3km/L, tested around 19 km/L on average.)

 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think you need to drive a Neta, they drive superbly and are currently 10% cheaper than the Ativ.  I know which I would rather drive and if both available to hire, I would go for the Neta every time.

 

We will probably see more competitors in the 550k to 750k range, at 771k the MG EP+ is already a stunning car, and it's in the Altis/Civic space.  MG has a good reputation in the UK & EU, it's a shame they completely ruined their entry into the Thai market with badly manufactured, unreliable cars and appalling after sales service.  Consumers take a long time to trust a company with a prior bad reputation.

Definitely ... and it's ฿600k if wanting AT.

If going for top end Yaris ... it's shy of ฿700k

 

A few baht more gets you in a MG4, IF you want performance, along with 

never having to buy petrol again, or those oil changes & tune-ups

[matchar]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think you need to drive a Neta, they drive superbly and are currently 10% cheaper than the Ativ.  I know which I would rather drive and if both available to hire, I would go for the Neta every time.

 

We will probably see more competitors in the 550k to 750k range, at 771k the MG EP+ is already a stunning car, and it's in the Altis/Civic space.  MG has a good reputation in the UK & EU, it's a shame they completely ruined their entry into the Thai market with badly manufactured, unreliable cars and appalling after sales service.  Consumers take a long time to trust a company with a prior bad reputation.

I'll admit the Neta V does look quite nice, if a bit narrow, but it's definitely a city car. It would be quite a pain on longer trips with the small battery and slow charging speed so unless I had 2 cars I'd prefer the ATIV regardless of build quality.

[matchar]

7 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Definitely ... and it's ฿600k if wanting AT.

If going for top end Yaris ... it's shy of ฿700k

 

A few baht more gets you in a MG4, IF you want performance, along with 

never having to buy petrol again, or those oil changes & tune-ups

฿549k is for the CVT transmission and I think most buyers will not be going for the top end or they would be looking at other cars.

 

Buying petrol is still a lot more convenient than charging for most people.

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, matchar said:

฿549k is for the CVT transmission and I think most buyers will not be going for the top end or they would be looking at other cars.

 

Buying petrol is still a lot more convenient than charging for most people.

Sit corrected ... but ... I know which one I would choose:

Yaris 94 hp (69 kW) at 6,000 rpm and 110 Nm (81 lb-ft) of torque at 4,400 rpm

Neta V 95 hp and  torque of 150 Nm ... almost instant

 

Would only buy ICEV if couldn't charge at home ... maybe.  Plug in/out, all of 30 secs vs 10 minutes at petrol station.  If I shopped at Lotus's, then still get the EV.

[mistral53]

I was at the Car Expo yesterday, and the reservation stats of the 2 first days confirm the traffic - Changan had by far the most crowded booth.

 

[JBChiangRai]

51 minutes ago, matchar said:

I'll admit the Neta V does look quite nice, if a bit narrow, but it's definitely a city car. It would be quite a pain on longer trips with the small battery and slow charging speed so unless I had 2 cars I'd prefer the ATIV regardless of build quality.

 

The Neta range is quoted as 380km, I regularly see them on the road making the journey between Chiang Mai & Chiang Rai.  They certainly are speedy, when you compare power outputs of ICE vs EV you have to remember that the EV has that power throughout the range whereas the for the ICE it's quoted as a peak, you probably need to knock a third of the ICE number to compare accurately.

 

40 minutes ago, matchar said:

Buying petrol is still a lot more convenient than charging for most people.

 

I think the converse is true.  Most people don't drive more than 80km a day, even those doing 300km don't ever need to waste any time filling up, they just plug in overnight at home.  I reckon I save around 5 hours per year by not filling up with petrol/diesel.

[KhunLA]

18 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

I was at the Car Expo yesterday, and the reservation stats of the 2 first days confirm the traffic - Changan had by far the most crowded booth.

 

5 of top 10 are EVs 

[matchar]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The Neta range is quoted as 380km, I regularly see them on the road making the journey between Chiang Mai & Chiang Rai.  They certainly are speedy, when you compare power outputs of ICE vs EV you have to remember that the EV has that power throughout the range whereas the for the ICE it's quoted as a peak, you probably need to knock a third of the ICE number to compare accurately.

 

 

I think the converse is true.  Most people don't drive more than 80km a day, even those doing 300km don't ever need to waste any time filling up, they just plug in overnight at home.  I reckon I save around 5 hours per year by not filling up with petrol/diesel.

Top Speed: Maximum speed 121 km/h (Sport mode)

Can run up to 320 km. per charge (WLTP standard)

Direct current DC Fast Charging supports up to 45 kW from 30-80%, takes approximately 30 minutes.

 

I'm all for EVs but those figures are too pitiful for a primary car.

When they start selling MG 4 specs for the Neta V price then I'll bite if I can solve the charging problem from living in a Bangkok condo.

 

It seems like convenient public chargers in malls overcharge and I don't fancy sitting at a gas station for 30 minutes once a week.

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, matchar said:

I can solve the charging problem from living in a Bangkok condo.

Not the best situation for owning an EV.

 

Does make me wonder why you even chime in on EV threads.

[JBChiangRai]

19 minutes ago, matchar said:

Top Speed: Maximum speed 121 km/h (Sport mode)

Can run up to 320 km. per charge (WLTP standard)

Direct current DC Fast Charging supports up to 45 kW from 30-80%, takes approximately 30 minutes.

 

I'm all for EVs but those figures are too pitiful for a primary car.

When they start selling MG 4 specs for the Neta V price then I'll bite if I can solve the charging problem from living in a Bangkok condo.

 

It seems like convenient public chargers in malls overcharge and I don't fancy sitting at a gas station for 30 minutes once a week.

 

 

 

 

I haven't seen the WLTP figures for the Neta, the only ones I can find are NEDC, I agree, I see the Neta as a town car with the occasional long-distance haul, though I could live with 30-80% in 30 minutes.

 

I think every condo owner needs to put pressure on their management committees to install EV charging points.  Some are already installing them but it's too slow.  Perhaps the government will give some grants or legislate.

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

https://thethaiger.com/news/business/thai-auto-market-anticipates-price-war-as-chinese-evs-flood-in
 

“The cost-effective production of Chinese EVs has led to price tags that undercut domestic ICE vehicles, forcing traditional car manufacturers to recalibrate their strategies, said Ratthakarn during the Bangkok International Motor Show, which is open to the public until December 11.

 

In Thailand, the pickup market has been languishing, with sales plunging over 30% this year”

 

[JBChiangRai]

59 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

I was at the Car Expo yesterday, and the reservation stats of the 2 first days confirm the traffic - Changan had by far the most crowded booth.

 

 

Almost 42% of cars booked at the motorshow are EV's.

[Issanman]

Here is an informative article about the Tesla products at the motor show including a  paragraph about the Tesla Optimus robot on display.

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

In Thailand, the pickup market has been languishing, with sales plunging over 30% this year”

Anticipating an EV pick up just around the corner ... 

[matchar]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Not the best situation for owning an EV.

 

Does make me wonder why you even chime in on EV threads.

I follow this thread because I'm interested in EVs and I occasionally "chime in" to set the record straight when people like you try to compare apples with oranges and refuse to even consider the disadvantages of an EV.

 

You seem unwilling to enter into a balanced discussion weighing the pros and cons and you always try to cherry pick your figures like solar charging, top spec ICE price compared to lowest spec EV price etc. to support your arguments.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, matchar said:

You seem unwilling to enter into a balanced discussion weighing the pros and cons and you always try to cherry pick your figures like solar charging, top spec ICE price compared to lowest spec EV price etc. to support your arguments.

I've mentioned the pros & cons.  That you chose to ignore that fact is a bit telling.  UP2U

 

I can only express my personal experience of owning, unlike your extensive knowledge of not owning.  My experience has been mostly positive.

 

Haven't bought a new top end ICEV, but it seems many of the entry level EVs, are spec'd better, with all the same or more bells & whistles.  Why I make that comparison at times.   Many people will buy the top end version of a 'made in TH' ICEV, in which case, they really should consider spending the same or a bit more, and peek / test drive a comparable EV.

 

But with all the false info/BS the anti EV & CH folks spew, they may not, and miss out on a much better vehicle.   Especially those that enjoy performance.

 

Yaris top end ฿700k

Mazda 2 top end ฿800k

 

Silly prices and a waste of money IMHO

Only reasons not to buy an EV, are you can't charge at home, or work on the road, racking up high kms everyday and time is money.  Honestly can't think of any other, aside from needing a truck.

 

 

[vinny41]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

5 of top 10 are EVs 

What happen to MG they don't appear anywhere in the top 24 

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

https://thethaiger.com/news/business/thai-auto-market-anticipates-price-war-as-chinese-evs-flood-in
 

“The cost-effective production of Chinese EVs has led to price tags that undercut domestic ICE vehicles, forcing traditional car manufacturers to recalibrate their strategies, said Ratthakarn during the Bangkok International Motor Show, which is open to the public until December 11.

 

In Thailand, the pickup market has been languishing, with sales plunging over 30% this year”

 

From the same article

In Thailand, the pickup market has been languishing, with sales plunging over 30% this year, largely due to banks stiffening their lending criteria amidst climbing household debt

So reduction in sales is due to more rigorous lending program