‘America is killing itself’: world reacts with horror and incomprehension to Texas shooting

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I really question the need for hunters and target shooters to have semi-automatic weapons, they have no precision, it's just a spray of bullets. Very effective at killing people, useless in a hunting situation unless one enjoys spitting out bullets with every mouthful.

 

I have been out at night in Australia with professional shooters, it was an education watching them harvest 100 - 200 feral pests, all head-shot, in about 8 hours of spotlighting. All they needed was a bolt-action rifle with a 5-shot magazine. They would regard semi-automatics as too expensive in terms of ammunition cost, and the users as butchers. So do I.

In 1996 a nutcase walked into a school armed with 4 handguns and 743 rounds of ammunition, he shot dead 16 children and a teacher. Following the Dunblane massacre the UK laws changed making hand-guns virtually impossible to get hold of legally. 

 

We still have hunting in the UK, shotguns and pheasants...   There is no need for an automatic assault rifle for hunting.

 

Imagine what would have happened in Dunblane in 1996 had an embittered British man walked into a School and unloaded his rage with an automatic assault rifle ???.

 

 

Well, we don’t need to imagine, we only need to read the US news to know that there have been 22 shootings in US schools this year. 

 

 

Assault rifles...  like RPGs, Grenades, Tanks etc there is no need for them at all outside of warfare. 

Anyone who uses the second amendment excuse, a hunting excuse is stretching reality... I have never heard of one single valid or intelligent excuse to justify the legalisation of automatic weapons among the civilian population. 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Food for thought ...

Banning firearms (used for hunting), probably would kill more people, that killed during school shootings.   

 

Deer vs vehicles already kill about 200 people a year.  Now imagine if you will, 6 million more roaming around.  Mind boggling, isn't it.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't ????

 

 

[KhunLA]

The .223 Remington rates up there very high with me, on the ammo choices.  The muzzle velocity, rise & dip of trajectory over 100 meters, makes it one of the most accurate cartridge, and my Ruger Mini-14 was a favorite of mine.  Also why it was used with the M16, for military, and a few other commercial hunting rifles.

 

"The . 223 Remington has become one of the most popular cartridges and is currently used in a wide range of semiautomatic and manual-action rifles and even handguns, such as the Colt AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, Remington Model 700, Remington XP-100, etc." - Wiki

 

Are we Yank a little gun crazy ... maybe ... a 10 yr old ????

 

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/gear/best-deer-hunting-calibers/#:~:text=For hunters the most common,sweet spot in the middle. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by KhunLA

[richard_smith237]

20 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Food for thought ...

Banning firearms (used for hunting), probably would kill more people, that killed during school shootings.   

 

Deer vs vehicles already kill about 200 people a year.  Now imagine if you will, 6 million more roaming around.  Mind boggling, isn't it.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't ????

 

 

Thats a good point...    Use a high powered cross bow then !!! 

 

OR, at the very most a Single Shot Rifle... 

 

There is no need for any member of the public to carry a handgun or any automatic weapon. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by richard_smith237

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats a good point...    Use a high powered cross bow then !!! 

Deer hunting, w/crossbow, and any distance, good luck with that.  Why the .223 / 5.56mm cartridge excels @ 100 meter, especially at an open meadow area, on fringe of forest.

[Isaan sailor]

26 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Food for thought ...

Banning firearms (used for hunting), probably would kill more people, that killed during school shootings.   

 

Deer vs vehicles already kill about 200 people a year.  Now imagine if you will, 6 million more roaming around.  Mind boggling, isn't it.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't ????

 

 

You got that right.  More white tailed deer in America today than in colonial times.  When you remove the predators. (Big, bad wolves, coyotes, mountain lions)—Bambi flourishes.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Isaan sailor

[ozimoron]

45 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Didn't realize you were so Anti-Yank, but you may want to read this first, before any more implications.

 

2013 - about 1% of illegal guns imported

2016 - same conclusion and about 1% imported

https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5329-australia-firearm-smuggling-and-the-origin-of-crime-guns/file

 

from Austria via Germany:

https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5329-australia-firearm-smuggling-and-the-origin-of-crime-guns/file

 

 

I'm not, I work for a US company. But the blame has to be sheeted back to where it belongs. I criticise Australia too, that doesn't make me anti Aussie.

[ozimoron]

53 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I really question the need for hunters and target shooters to have semi-automatic weapons, they have no precision, it's just a spray of bullets. Very effective at killing people, useless in a hunting situation unless one enjoys spitting out bullets with every mouthful.

 

I have been out at night in Australia with professional shooters, it was an education watching them harvest 100 - 200 feral pests, all head-shot, in about 8 hours of spotlighting. All they needed was a bolt-action rifle with a 5-shot magazine. They would regard semi-automatics as too expensive in terms of ammunition cost, and the users as butchers. So do I.

Correct, real hunters use single shot bolt action rifles with no magazine. They pride themselves in killing with a single shot.

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Deer hunting, w/crossbow, and any distance, good luck with that.  Why the .223 / 5.56mm cartridge excels @ 100 meter, especially at an open meadow area, on fringe of forest.

100 meters is almost point blank range for a hunter. There's no sport there, not that there is in any killing of animals unless they are feral pests. They must also be pretty small deer. The .223 is really a varmint round. The favoured round in oz is a .308 as they mainly shoot buffalo and wild pigs at longer distances. I prefer target shooting myself, with the round style targets, not the ones resembling a person. Only sickos use them. Not pointing the finger at you of course, just giving my opinion.

[richard_smith237]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

20 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats a good point...    Use a high powered cross bow then !!! 

Deer hunting, w/crossbow, and any distance, good luck with that.  Why the .223 / 5.56mm cartridge excels @ 100 meter, especially at an open meadow area, on fringe of forest.

Fair enough....     

 

But none of this ‘hunting’ discussion explains any need or justification for either hand-guns or automatic weapons. 

 

Single shot rifles can’t do much in a ‘mass shooting’ attempt which is what we are talking about here, unless some sicko decides he’s going to hide in a building and pick of people from a crowd, but thats still less severe casualties than an Assault rifle would cause. 

 

Nothing is 100% water tight - but stopping the mass shootings by limiting the ‘ease’ with which almost anyone has access automatic and readily concealable weapons is surely a higher objective, no ?

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

I think it's become very obvious that police stationed at schools will be worse than useless. A total waste of money compared to social programs. Those police would be mostly retirees or very close to it and not willing to risk their lives before being pensioned off. Unless they put them in full SWAT gear and armed to the teeth, not just with a 9mm pistol they will not stop anybody. The quick response team with the right equipment at the nearest police station would have the most effect. Moreover, will we stop at schools, what about churches and shopping centers? We can't put police in battle gear at every soft target.

[Slip]

This is explosive stuff.  I hope the source is acceptable:

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/authorities-investigating-if-retired-federal-agent-knew-of-buffalo-mass-shooting-plans-in-advance/article_bd408f18-dd39-11ec-be53-df8fdd095d6f.html#tracking-source=most-popular-news

 

"Law enforcement officers are investigating whether a retired federal agent had about 30 minutes advance notice of a white supremacist's plans to murder Black people at a Buffalo supermarket, two law enforcement officials told The Buffalo News. 

 

Authorities believe the former agent – believed to be from Texas – was one of at least six individuals who regularly communicated with accused gunman Payton Gendron in an online chat room where racist hatred was discussed, the two officials said.

 

The two law enforcement sources with direct knowledge of the investigation stated these individuals were invited by Gendron to read about his mass shooting plans and the target location about 30 minutes before Gendron killed 10 people at Tops Markets on Jefferson Avenue on May 14. 

 

The News could not determine if the retired agent accepted the invitation."

 

[SatEng]

15 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Didn't realize you were so Anti-Yank, but you may want to read this first, before any more implications.

 

2013 - about 1% of illegal guns imported

2016 - same conclusion and about 1% imported

https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5329-australia-firearm-smuggling-and-the-origin-of-crime-guns/file

 

from Austria via Germany:

https://www.gunpolicy.org/documents/5329-australia-firearm-smuggling-and-the-origin-of-crime-guns/file

 

 

Doesn't have to be anti-American to show the facts about where the root cause of this sickness is

 

Despite strict laws on private gun ownership, U.K. officials are seeing a rise in illegal firearms entering the country. Nearly 900 illegal weapons seized over the past three years – including the three guns taken in the November operation – originated in the United States.   

"What we are seeing is an upward trend of guns coming out of gun stores in America and the parcel service is being used to ship them to the U.K. and into criminal hands,"

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/guns-us-stores-british-criminals-hands/

 

[ozimoron]

So now we have police afraid to tackle teenagers in mass shooting events because they know they are up against high capacity magazines and weapons which fire rounds which will kill after a hit to almost any part of the body. It's extremely difficult to stop such a person without using explosives which are out of the question in a school. A person will often survive a hit from a 9mm round but almost never from a .223.

 

It's become very clear that the only solution is to remove the most egregious weapons suited only for mass killing from the general populace. If the penalty for owning such a weapons was close to life imprisonment they would disappear overnight. Teenagers would certainly find it very difficult to get them. Will it stop every mass shooting? Of course not but it's easy to see that the vast majority of them wouldn't happen and gun laws outside the US prove that.

Edited May 27, 2022 by ozimoron

[Slip]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

So now we have police afraid to tackle teenagers in mass shooting events because they know they are up against high capacity magazines and weapons which fire rounds which will kill after a hit to almost any part of the body. It's extremely difficult to stop such a person without using explosives which are out of the question in a school. A person will often survive a hit from a 9mm round but almost never from a .223.

 

It's become very clear that the only solution is to remove the most egregious weapons suited only for mass killing from the general populace. If the penalty for owning such a weapons was close to life imprisonment they would disappear overnight. Teenagers would certainly find it very difficult to get them. Will it stop every mass shooting? Of course not but it's easy to see that the vast majority of them wouldn't happen and gun laws outside the US prove that.

The problem is that at least a reasonably large minority of American citizens don't have any interest in even trying.  There are many such members who post here.  It's clearly a cultural thing, but that makes it particularly unresponsive to agents of change.

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, Slip said:

The problem is that at least a reasonably large minority of American citizens don't have any interest in even trying.  There are many such members who post here.  It's clearly a cultural thing, but that makes it particularly unresponsive to agents of change.

In Australia, the change was enacted by one of the most conservative governments we have ever had. It's was a matter of following expert advice, not lobby groups.

[Slip]

55 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

In Australia, the change was enacted by one of the most conservative governments we have ever had. It's was a matter of following expert advice, not lobby groups.

I didn't mention lobby groups or the political stance of anyone involved in making change.  I was talking about the mindset of the populace.

I'm pretty sure we have all seen the rise of populism recently.  How it ties in with lobby groups and big business is above my pay grade, but it can't be good for we common people.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Food for thought ...

Banning firearms (used for hunting), probably would kill more people, that killed during school shootings.   

 

Deer vs vehicles already kill about 200 people a year.  Now imagine if you will, 6 million more roaming around.  Mind boggling, isn't it.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't ????

 

 

Every state that I know of requires people to have hunting licenses to hunt deer.  Too bad that isn't true for "hunting" rifles as well.

 

Do you think a high capacity magazine is necessary for deer hunting?

[Hanuman2547]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

I have never heard of one single valid or intelligent excuse to justify the legalisation of automatic weapons among the civilian population. 

Just for clarification, automatic weapons are still prohibited in he USA.  The deceased suspect in the Texas school shooting was using a legally purchased semi-automatic weapon with a high capacity magazine.  

[Hanuman2547]

44 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Do you think a high capacity magazine is necessary for deer hunting?

I for one do not.  Also the round that is used (.223/5.56) is not that good of a round for deer hunting.  

[Hanuman2547]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:25 PM, JCauto said:

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-05-25/texas-school-shooting-gunman-barricaded-classroom

 

Okay, so he shot his grandmother in the face, with the guns he bought on his 18th birthday, got in the car, crashed it in a ditch, ran towards the school with his rifle, was engaged at the back door of the school by the armed school resource officer and got past him and into the building (wonder how?). The shooter was also NOT wearing armor or other protection.

But according to Ted Cruz, they needed a better safety plan. Oh, they already had one! Didn't help.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568

This is in contrast to what was reported later, but at the time this might have been the info that was released.

 

"On Wednesday, state officials initially said a school district resource officer approached the gunman and “engaged him,” but no gunfire was exchanged before the shooter entered two connected classrooms. Law enforcement officials abruptly reversed that account Thursday, saying no school police officer ever confronted the attacker when he jumped a fence surrounding the school, fired at the building, and entered the campus through what they said appeared to be an unlocked door."

“He walked in undisrupted initially,” Victor Escalon of the Texas Department of Public Safety said to reporters, adding that the gunman then fired at responding officers as they called for help.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/26/robb-elementary-security-didnt-stop-massacre-00035332  

[bbko]

11 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Statistically, the USA is a safe place to live.

Says the man that's been carrying a gun for the past 24 years for protection.  
America is F'd up.

[KhunLA]

A few thoughts from my firearm experience & knowledge.

 

A well placed .223 round is excellent ammo for deer hunting, especially in open area.  High capacity mag for hunting, need, maybe not, unless you come across a bear or wild boar with an attitude.  You'll want and maybe need 15 or 30 rounds, as it is still a 22, and why some states don't allow it for larger game hunting.

 

Before last week, there were 6 people killed in what is classified as school shooting, as near a school.  Not sure, but don't think any were actually 'in' the school. .... 6 ...

 

Mass shootings are mostly gang bangers & drug/turf wars, and with handguns (6568) not rifles (364) - 2019 FBI stats.  Link provided earlier.  Most murders, if not gang bangers, knew their victims, personally.

 

Some, most of your replies simply show lack of knowledge of firearms & crimes committed by, in the USA.  Hope this helps.

[KhunLA]

Just now, bbko said:

Says the man that's been carrying a gun for the past 24 years for protection.  
America is F'd up.

AND .... never needed.   I sold firearms, was self employed, drove trucks long distances at night, and lived in, and worked in some not so nice places, along with driving around with expensive work tools, and large sums of cash.  Seems like common sense to me.

 

Police carry guns, and most never need ... nuff said.

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

A few thoughts from my firearm experience & knowledge.

 

A well placed .223 round is excellent ammo for deer hunting, especially in open area.  High capacity mag for hunting, need, maybe not, unless you come across a bear or wild boar with an attitude.  You'll want and maybe need 15 or 30 rounds, as it is still a 22, and why some states don't allow it for larger game hunting.

 

Before last week, there were 6 people killed in what is classified as school shooting, as near a school.  Not sure, but don't think any were actually 'in' the school. .... 6 ...

 

Mass shootings are mostly gang bangers & drug/turf wars, and with handguns (6568) not rifles (364) - 2019 FBI stats.  Link provided earlier.  Most murders, if not gang bangers, knew their victims, personally.

 

Some, most of your replies simply show lack of knowledge of firearms & crimes committed by, in the USA.  Hope this helps.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that a .223 caliber is excellent for deer hunting even though it may take 15 or 30 rounds to kill the animal?  Are you hunting deer or torturing them?

 

Get a proper bolt action deer rifle and don't shoot unless you have a clear shot.

[bbko]

16 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

drove trucks long distances at night, and lived in, and worked in some not so nice places, along with driving around with expensive work tools, and large sums of cash.  Seems like common sense to me.

Because killing someone over a truck load of tools is the American way....right?

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Just to be clear, are you claiming that a .223 caliber is excellent for deer hunting even though it may take 15 or 30 rounds to kill the animal?  Are you hunting deer or torturing them?

 

Get a proper bolt action deer rifle and don't shoot unless you have a clear shot.

Reading comprehension ... "unless you come across a bear or wild boar with an attitude.  You'll want and maybe need 15 or 30 rounds"

 

If you need more than 1 round for deer, you probably shouldn't be hunting.

[Hanuman2547]

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If you need more than 1 round for deer, you probably shouldn't be hunting.

True.  If one round doesn't bring the deer down you probably won't get a second shot anyway.   I still would never hunt deer with a .223/5.56 as it is just too small for deer found in the western US.  Out in the south and midwest where they hunt smaller deer from tree stands that particular round might work.  You'd get laughed at in the west for anything that small.

[Jingthing]

Backward Country. Ouch.

 

 

[ozimoron]

well, look here. I don't know who it was who questioned whether the shooter should have failed a background check but here it is.

 

Yet another mass killer reportedly threatened misogynistic violence after being sexually rebuffed, according to a Friday evening report by CNN on the Uvalde school shooting massacre.

"Salvador Ramos told girls he would rape them, showed off a rifle he bought, and threatened to shoot up schools in livestreams on the social media app Yubo, according to several users who witnessed the threats in recent weeks," CNN reported.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/yubo-app-salvador-ramos-threats-invs/index.html

Edited May 28, 2022 by ozimoron