should I use a RCBO breaker?

[STD Warehouse]

We have just built a bar with freezer and fridge that is outside on the terrace. The roof is large and completely covers the area. 

 

Should the breaker for this area be RCBO?

 

EDIT: We will be selling ice cream from this bar, so i would be concerned about an RCBO tripping to easily and all of the ice cream melting!

[MJCM]

What about the Fridge where the Ice Cream is stored on separate circuit and NOT RCBO and the rest on RCBO circuits?

[Crossy]

Yes ^^^ that works IF your system is correctly grounded as MEN (Or TNS which is very rare here). Our freezers are on separate unprotected circuits.

 

Or use an auto-reclose RCD https://www.lazada.co.th/products/geya-grd9l-r-auto-recloser-type-rccb-rcd-elcb-40a-63a-30ma-100ma-300ma-safety-breaker-i4152763606-s16301156124.html

 

NOTE The above is just an RCD it also needs an MCB for over-current protection. 

 

[MJCM]

But I must say in our current house the Fridge is also on a RCBO circuit and never had an issue fortunately, will change it one day

 

The only one that is not RCBO in our current house is NO RCBO is for the Aircon only (and that failed (the aircon that is) recently (Gecko ingression ???? )

[STD Warehouse]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yes ^^^ that works IF your system is correctly grounded as MEN (Or TNS which is very rare here). Our freezers are on separate unprotected circuits.

 

Or use an auto-reclose RCD https://www.lazada.co.th/products/geya-grd9l-r-auto-recloser-type-rccb-rcd-elcb-40a-63a-30ma-100ma-300ma-safety-breaker-i4152763606-s16301156124.html

 

NOTE The above is just an RCD it also needs an MCB for over-current protection. 

 

do you think we need RCBO for the sockets behind the bar? 

[STD Warehouse]

2 minutes ago, MJCM said:

But I must say in our current house the Fridge is also on a RCBO circuit and never had an issue fortunately, will change it one day

 

The only one that is not RCBO in our current house is NO RCBO is for the Aircon only (and that failed (the aircon that is) recently (Gecko ingression ???? )

so every socket inside your house uses a RCBO?

[STD Warehouse]

What are we really taking about here, is it just a RCBO will trip faster than the standard breaker, is that the only consideration? and is that a real advantage outside of say a bathroom?

[MJCM]

Just now, STD Warehouse said:

so every socket inside your house uses a RCBO?

Yes, ONLY not for the Aircon, but will change the Fridge one as I believe it's recommended not to have the Fridge on a RCBO, but that said I never (in 2 years) had an issue

 

[STD Warehouse]

17 minutes ago, MJCM said:

What about the Fridge where the Ice Cream is stored on separate circuit and NOT RCBO and the rest on RCBO circuits?

Thanks for this idea. We have already wired it all up and this is just an after thought, so this would require further work for the electrician to come back and make a new circuit for the Fridge and Freezer.

[Crossy]

33 minutes ago, STD Warehouse said:

do you think we need RCBO for the sockets behind the bar? 

 

I would have everything EXCEPT the freezer on an RCD/RCBO (and the freezer needs a proper ground).

 

It really depends upon whether the ice-cream is more valuable than your, or your family's life.

 

As with many things in Thailand, it's UP2U.

 

EDIT To save on re-wiring you can get RCBO's in small boxes which you could place under the bar. 500 Baht ish.

 

Look like this (cobwebs optional extra)

 

[STD Warehouse]

14 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I would have everything EXCEPT the freezer on an RCD/RCBO (and the freezer needs a proper ground).

 

It really depends upon whether the ice-cream is more valuable than your, or your family's life.

 

As with many things in Thailand, it's UP2U.

 

EDIT To save on re-wiring you can get RCBO's in small boxes which you could place under the bar. 500 Baht ish.

 

Look like this (cobwebs optional extra)

 

great advice, thank you

[OneMoreFarang]

I think I am familiar with electrical installations and RCDs and MCBs and RCBOs - at least from a first world country. I never heard/read about a problem with a fridge.

 

I found this information in the following link:

 

When you should use a RCBO Consumer Unit (electricaldirect.co.uk)

We recommend that you attach a RCBO to each individual circuit in your wiring system, so that any faults in one circuit will not affect the others’ functionality. If there are circuits in your clients’ homes that must stay functional at all times, such as the power to your freezer or fire alarm, a RCBO is the most practical circuit breaker to install. A RCD and MCB can still lead to a power outage, as they can only detect one type of problem. In less vital circuits, a RCD or MCB may be more cost effective, but it’s important to consider their downfalls when installing important wiring systems.

 

Why do people here recommend not to use a RCBO?

As far as I know a RCBO should only trigger if the device uses too much current or there is leakage. Both shouldn't happen with a functioning fridge, or any other device. Or not?

 

If it is important that the fridge is always on (yes, I also like ice-cream) I would install an alarm system which lets you know when the power is off.

[lopburi3]

Have been using RCBO for more than 40 years and never had an issue and most of that time have had at least 3 refrigerators.  But perhaps best to put on the same RCBO you are using in main house so outage quickly noticed.  Lost ice cream can be replaced.  Good ground and RCBO helps greatly to avoid the need for our and our loved ones  replacement.

[bluejets]

These days everything should be on an elcb/ safety switch/ safety cut whatever you choose to call it.

 

Make the frig/freezer a dedicated circuit by all means but there is absolutely no reason not to consider safety overa bit of melted ice cream ( maybe).

 

Old wives tale putting frig on a separate unprotected circuit, went out with the dinosaurs....

[STD Warehouse]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:01 PM, Crossy said:

 

I would have everything EXCEPT the freezer on an RCD/RCBO (and the freezer needs a proper ground).

 

It really depends upon whether the ice-cream is more valuable than your, or your family's life.

 

As with many things in Thailand, it's UP2U.

 

EDIT To save on re-wiring you can get RCBO's in small boxes which you could place under the bar. 500 Baht ish.

 

Look like this (cobwebs optional extra)

 

An electrician attempted to install an RCBO breaker in for the outside sheltered bar area, the RCBO was housed in the main house consumer box. Our house is well earthed with our own earth rod. The RCBO just tripped as soon as he put it in. 

 

However that electrician was a bit out of his depth..... so a new electrician has just come round.

 

The new electrician said:

 

1. The RCBO breaker will trip all the time because of the moisture

2. The RCBO breaker will trip because of thunder/lightning

3. The bar has a fridge and freezer and the cable running to the bar should be 4mm not 2.5

 

So the advice here on the forum was to put a RCBO in (which i agree with) but now the electrician is saying it will just always trip, so im unsure how to proceed?

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, STD Warehouse said:

so im unsure how to proceed?

 

I suggest another new sparks!

 

1. If there is moisture - dry it out (and ensure it stays dry).
2. Lightning surges MAY trip an RCBO, but modern ones are much less likely to. Thunder tends to upset pets but not electrical supply.
3. Just how big is this freezer to need a 30A cable?

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, STD Warehouse said:

An electrician attempted to install an RCBO breaker in for the outside sheltered bar area, the RCBO was housed in the main house consumer box. Our house is well earthed with our own earth rod. The RCBO just tripped as soon as he put it in. 

 

However that electrician was a bit out of his depth..... so a new electrician has just come round.

 

The new electrician said:

 

1. The RCBO breaker will trip all the time because of the moisture

2. The RCBO breaker will trip because of thunder/lightning

3. The bar has a fridge and freezer and the cable running to the bar should be 4mm not 2.5

 

So the advice here on the forum was to put a RCBO in (which i agree with) but now the electrician is saying it will just always trip, so im unsure how to proceed?

You don’t have an electrician. If you get an actual electrician you will find out the exact problem, IMHO almost certainly a borrowed neutral. As to cable size that depends on actual load and distance

[Crossy]

Please can you post a photo of what's been installed in your box showing the connections?

 

[STD Warehouse]

37 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Please can you post a photo of what's been installed in your box showing the connections?

 

Yes sir, thank you, one moment

[STD Warehouse]

The outside bar is on the 7th breaker down on the left 

[Crossy]

Nice looking bar are, super view ???? 

 

Do you have a photo of the RCBO that was tried? You also need to know which of the neutral wires goes to the bar area.

 

As @sometimewoodworkernoted, I bet the problem with the RCBO was a borrowed/shared neutral. Your man will need to identify which other circuit is sharing the neutral.

 

I do also note that you have no other earth-leakage protection anywhere, I'd be looking at protecting any outside lighting/outlets and your water heaters before worrying about the freezer..

[STD Warehouse]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Nice looking bar are, super view ???? 

 

Do you have a photo of the RCBO that was tried? You also need to know which of the neutral wires goes to the bar area.

 

As @sometimewoodworkernoted, I bet the problem with the RCBO was a borrowed/shared neutral. Your man will need to identify which other circuit is sharing the neutral.

 

I do also note that you have no other earth-leakage protection anywhere, I'd be looking at protecting any outside lighting/outlets and your water heaters before worrying about the freezer..

Thank you for your helpful feedback and suggestions. Here is the RCBO

[Crossy]

OK, did your man connect the blue tail to one of the neutral bars?

 

Also, did he move one of the blue neutral wires (the one that feeds the bar area) to the N terminal of the RCBO?

 

Also, that's a 32A RCBO. For outlets and a few lights 20A would be adequate, I wonder if that's why your man wanted to use 4mm²?

[STD Warehouse]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Nice looking bar are, super view ???? 

 

Do you have a photo of the RCBO that was tried? You also need to know which of the neutral wires goes to the bar area.

 

As @sometimewoodworkernoted, I bet the problem with the RCBO was a borrowed/shared neutral. Your man will need to identify which other circuit is sharing the neutral.

 

I do also note that you have no other earth-leakage protection anywhere, I'd be looking at protecting any outside lighting/outlets and your water heaters before worrying about the freezer..

Reason we have currently have no RCBO is I brought 2 RCBO for the bathrooms but the electrician said he couldn’t install them as the bathrooms have no earth cable. The only electric in the bathrooms are two 12v recessed downlights. The hot water comes from a boiler in the loft.

 

I do have 

 

1. a 100L boiler in the loft

2. A undercounted instant water heater in the kitchen 

 

should these be on a RCBO?

 

again thank you for such useful help. 

[Crossy]

I wouldn't worry about the 12V downlighters.

 

If your storage heater is properly grounded and you have plastic pipes I wouldn't worry about that either.

 

The under-counter heater I would put on an RCBO.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

A RCBO will only work if all the wires are connected correctly.

It detects if the current on L is not the same as the current on N.

If N is not installed correctly then this can't/won't work!

 

 

 

 

[STD Warehouse]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

I wouldn't worry about the 12V downlighters.

 

If your storage heater is properly grounded and you have plastic pipes I wouldn't worry about that either.

 

The under-counter heater I would put on an RCBO.

 

 

Thanks I will follow that advice, from hearing your recommendations im getting a UK electrician who lives locally to come in and sort this all out.

 

thank you for your invaluable help!

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, STD Warehouse said:

Thanks I will follow that advice, from hearing your recommendations im getting a UK electrician who lives locally to come in and sort this all out.

 

Sounds like a plan.

 

Ensure you have plenty of beer, UK sparkies run on beer!

 

Do let us know what he says ???? 

 

[STD Warehouse]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

A RCBO will only work if all the wires are connected correctly.

It detects if the current on L is not the same as the current on N.

If N is not installed correctly then this can't/won't work!

 

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

that’s really helpful as I now have some understanding about an RCBO

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, STD Warehouse said:

Thanks I will follow that advice, from hearing your recommendations im getting a UK electrician who lives locally to come in and sort this all out.

 

thank you for your invaluable help!

You haven’t said where you live, while a U.K. electrician may actually be an electrician, the chance is good, it still isn’t a guarantee. With your location there may be other options.