REVEALED: Three Chinese spy balloons infiltrated the US during Trump administration but he NEVER shot them down or told the public - as Republicans call for Biden to resign for putting Americans at risk

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

That is correct about catching balloons.

 

However it was a relatively small balloon recovered from a very low altitude compared to the 200 foot tall Chinese balloon operating at heights that most aircraft cannot fly at with several thousands of pounds weight dangling underneath it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system

 

In popular culture
The Skyhook has been featured in a number of films and video games. It was seen in the 1965 James Bond film Thunderball, where James Bond and his companion Domino Derval are rescued at sea by a modified Boeing B-17 equipped with the Fulton system at the end of the movie.[7] In 1968, it was used in the John Wayne movie The Green Berets to spirit a VC officer to South Vietnam.[7]

The Skyhook system was also featured in the 2008 film The Dark Knight. First mentioned by Lucius Fox as a means of re-boarding an aircraft without its landing,[8] the system is attached to a Lockheed L-100 Hercules.[9][10][11]

A somewhat fictionalized interpretation of the Skyhook forms a core gameplay mechanic in Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain.[12]

Minor point, but I'm pretty sure that was a C-130, not a B-17.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, bannork said:

The latest balloon to be found floating in US skies. Thankfully it was found to be devoid of any intelligence gathering facilities.

 

 

Ah, so both empty vessels then!  

[Phoenix Rising]

18 hours ago, nauseus said:

Just alleged, so far, as ever.

Sure, just like the "alleged" 6th Jan insurrection.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, pomchop said:

and have the debris sink into a five mile deep pacific ocean in the middle of winter with rough seas in remte alaska....good luck to the navy divers who would have had to try and deal with that.

Nonsense. They could bring balloons down close to a choice of several significant shelf areas, where the water depth is <50m. ROV's could be  deployed to locate and recover any debris - if they actually wanted to bother doing that.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

But he makes that call after listening to advice from people who know far more about their subject than any POTUS could or would.

 

Trump OTOH......

Well I never said he didn't take advice but I think Trump would have done the same.

 

That's why they have all those brass hats around them.

[Phoenix Rising]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nonsense. They could bring balloons down close to a choice of several significant shelf areas, where the water depth is <50m. ROV's could be  deployed to locate and recover any debris - if they actually wanted to bother doing that.

Sounds like you have the whole process, including the extremely complicated logistics involved in this, down to a tee so there's two options:

1. Impressive, you must have a high rank military background or somehow be very knowledgeable wrt US military assets and their deployment.

2. You're just another keyboard warrior talking out of his posterior.

 

Guess which option I'm going with.....

[Eric Loh]

41 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Well I never said he didn't take advice but I think Trump would have done the same.

 

That's why they have all those brass hats around them.

He don’t need those brass hats around as he is a genius and smarter than the generals. He just need his ego around. ???? 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Minor point, but I'm pretty sure that was a C-130, not a B-17.

Modified B17 in the Bond movie but Hercules was used in the other one - can't remember the name of it.

[nauseus]

25 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Sounds like you have the whole process, including the extremely complicated logistics involved in this, down to a tee so there's two options:

1. Impressive, you must have a high rank military background or somehow be very knowledgeable wrt US military assets and their deployment.

2. You're just another keyboard warrior talking out of his posterior.

 

Guess which option I'm going with.....

Backs to the wall lads!

[pomchop]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Nonsense. They could bring balloons down close to a choice of several significant shelf areas, where the water depth is <50m. ROV's could be  deployed to locate and recover any debris - if they actually wanted to bother doing that.

Well I guess you know more than all the pros who had to decide the best action....you make it all sound so simple to just set a balloon down from 60.000 feet up in a precise area  then send in a few machines to  scoop up all the debris from the rocky uneven sea bed  with no worries about rough seas high winds in the middle of the winter . 

 

Maybe a bit more complicated than  than off the coast of SC in 50 ft water with a flat sandy seabed beneath in 50 degree weather within short distance of shore with all sorts of big military bases personnel and equipment nearby.....it is amazing the experts didn't think of that or call to get your expertise.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Well I guess you know more than all the pros who had to decide the best action....you make it all sound so simple to just set a balloon down from 60.000 feet up in a precise area  then send in a few machines to  scoop up all the debris from the rocky uneven sea bed  with no worries about rough seas high winds in the middle of the winter . 

 

Maybe a bit more complicated than  than off the coast of SC in 50 ft water with a flat sandy seabed beneath in 50 degree weather within short distance of shore with all sorts of big military bases personnel and equipment nearby.....it is amazing the experts didn't think of that or call to get your expertise.

My post was to describe a possibility in the event of another balloon arrival, in case they decided to bring it down earlier if there is a next time. They have already shown that they can bring a balloon down from 60.000 feet, in a precise area, and then send in a "few machines to  scoop up all the debris". Only a single ship, suitably equipped, is required for the recovery and the shallow shelf sea bottom is mostly soft and flat around the Aleutians. Yes, the weather is often bad over there but there are fair weather windows and the priority would be to stop the balloon from drifting across the entire North American continent rather than worrying about the junk, which could be collected later. 

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Well I guess you know more than all the pros who had to decide the best action....you make it all sound so simple to just set a balloon down from 60.000 feet up in a precise area  then send in a few machines to  scoop up all the debris from the rocky uneven sea bed  with no worries about rough seas high winds in the middle of the winter . 

 

Maybe a bit more complicated than  than off the coast of SC in 50 ft water with a flat sandy seabed beneath in 50 degree weather within short distance of shore with all sorts of big military bases personnel and equipment nearby.....it is amazing the experts didn't think of that or call to get your expertise.

The experts had already decided to let the balloon float across the US, this time, but it looks  like there may be pressure for that policy not to become a regular event.  

[SpaceKadet]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If they put a small hole in the balloon it would descend slowly. Perhaps they don't really want to find out, or be able to claim that it was destroyed on landing. Be a bit embarrassing if it was just a weather research balloon.

F22, as most US fighters, carries M61A2 Vulcan 20mm six-barreled internal cannon. Effective range is just under 2 miles. Now, please tell me how would you put a "small hole" in something that is hovering 25,000 feet (over 4 miles) above you?

And remember that bullets do not have internal propulsion or guidance and are purely ballistic, i.e. obeying the gravity.

[ozimoron]

He added that it was particularly silly” because both Chinese and U.S. satellites are equipped with cameras that do more than enough to scan the ground, and they “really don't gain much—if anything—added value from balloons.”

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinas-spy-balloon-isnt-as-low-tech-as-you-think

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

He added that it was particularly silly” because both Chinese and U.S. satellites are equipped with cameras that do more than enough to scan the ground, and they “really don't gain much—if anything—added value from balloons.”

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinas-spy-balloon-isnt-as-low-tech-as-you-think

So pure provocation then?

[ozimoron]

Just now, Hummin said:

So pure provocation then?

The article discusses how it may have gotten out of control of a low level official in the military. I don't know what it is but common sense tells us that if the military were happy to let it fly until it crossed the coast it wasn't too much of a security problem. 

[SpaceKadet]

22 hours ago, Walker88 said:

There really is precious little a balloon could get that a satellite could not do better. Also, much 'intel' is open source. HUMINT is often the only missing piece, not any sort of SIGINT.

 

While the US used to use the SR-71 to take photos and gather data, those aircraft were grounded when the various iterations of the Keyhole satellites were deployed. China has similarly sophisticated satellites. The NSA, as well as Chinese, Russian, and other Five Eyes intel services, can capture every single electronic transmission on Earth. Secrets are kept secret via encryption, not borders, and quantum computers can now break lots of encryption. (Anybody think WhatsApp is actually secure?)

 

Google Maps is 100% borrowed low resolution material from US spy satellites. "Low resolution" means Google is not given the imaging that can tell the date on a coin on the ground---through cloud cover---via a satellite following a molniya orbit whose apogee might be 25000 miles above Earth.

 

Best everybody just chill out about balloons. It's only a political issue now because repubs cannot bark about the economy.

I will beg to differ.

 

Normally, spy satellites orbit at 200 miles (320km). According to most sources, the highest image resolution they can do is under 10cm but more that 5cm. Now imagine a stationary object loitering at 25km with the same camera. I would expect the image resolution to be below 1cm. And that could probably read the date on the coin.

 

One thing that spy satellites cannot do, or even the Echelon system that you mentioned, is to gather signal intelligence (SIGINT) of low powered transmitters used by different branches of military, and civil services. Balloons loitering at 85,000 feet are perfect for that.

 

Echelon relies on huge listening radio arrays, and spy satellites positioning themselves next to commercial Com Satellites. Do you seriously believe that you could, in NY find a signal transmitted by a 2W handheld in LA, no matter how big your listening antenna was? There is this thing called "Inverse Square Law".

[Hummin]

17 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

He added that it was particularly silly” because both Chinese and U.S. satellites are equipped with cameras that do more than enough to scan the ground, and they “really don't gain much—if anything—added value from balloons.”

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinas-spy-balloon-isnt-as-low-tech-as-you-think

I believe this is a valid point, just see how much noise there have been, and will be for a week or two. Biden's rating says alot after this, even it was not especially good from before.

 

"There’s also more psychological reasons for why the country keeps opting to use balloons: it might have wanted to show the American government and, perhaps more importantly, American civilians that they could easily break into sovereign U.S. airspace if it really wanted. China’s activities are now public, but it has now had a chance to gauge the U.S. reaction, which could inform future planning and decision-making for even more escalatory actions like sending a drone or crewed aircraft."

 

 

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

F22, as most US fighters, carries M61A2 Vulcan 20mm six-barreled internal cannon. Effective range is just under 2 miles. Now, please tell me how would you put a "small hole" in something that is hovering 25,000 feet (over 4 miles) above you?

And remember that bullets do not have internal propulsion or guidance and are purely ballistic, i.e. obeying the gravity.

The difference in altitude was much less but, yes, the cannon option was not really feasible. 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I believe this is a valid point, just see how much noise there have been, and will be for a week or two. Biden's rating says alot after this, even it was not especially good from before.

 

"There’s also more psychological reasons for why the country keeps opting to use balloons: it might have wanted to show the American government and, perhaps more importantly, American civilians that they could easily break into sovereign U.S. airspace if it really wanted. China’s activities are now public, but it has now had a chance to gauge the U.S. reaction, which could inform future planning and decision-making for even more escalatory actions like sending a drone or crewed aircraft."

 

 

Perhaps this reaction-gauging was the main objective of the show?

[ozimoron]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Perhaps this reaction-gauging was the main objective of the show?

That's been pointed out in the MSM so yes, I think that's a good point. 

[Phoenix Rising]

4 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Sounds like you have the whole process, including the extremely complicated logistics involved in this, down to a tee so there's two options:

1. Impressive, you must have a high rank military background or somehow be very knowledgeable wrt US military assets and their deployment.

2. You're just another keyboard warrior talking out of his posterior.

 

Guess which option I'm going with.....

BTW, here's another one who's talking out of his posterior:

 

Rep. Ted Lieu Bursts Newt Gingrich's Balloon In High-Flying Fact-Check

 

"“We had plenty of capacity to scoop that balloon out of the air,” Gingrich said Monday on Fox News, “we used to do it all the time.”

But Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.) ― who served in the Air Force ― was standing by with a fact-check, writing on Twitter: "Having served on active duty, I know for a fact the US does not have a balloon scooper aircraft. Newt Gingrich, who never served in the military, has no idea what he is talking about."

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Well I never said he didn't take advice but I think Trump would have done the same.

 

That's why they have all those brass hats around them.

But most of the time Trump ignored the advice and information put before him by the US Intelligence agencies, as he knew more about anything and everything than everybody else.

 

And he still believes that he does, which is the sad thing.

 

He appointed people into positions and if they repeatedly told him things he did not want to hear, he fired them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations

 

Many political appointees of Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, resigned or were dismissed. The record-setting turnover rate in the first year of the Trump Administration has been noted in various publications.[1][2][3] Several Trump appointees, including National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci, and Secretary of Health and Human Services Tom Price have had the shortest service tenures in the history of their respective offices.

 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/tracking-turnover-in-the-trump-administration/

[Isaan sailor]

Just glad that dude in Billings looked out his office window.  Otherwise, Chinese spy balloon would pass over America unnoticed and unreported.

[billd766]

23 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

Just glad that dude in Billings looked out his office window.  Otherwise, Chinese spy balloon would pass over America unnoticed and unreported.

I very much doubt that.

 

IMHO it was probably tracked all of the way as the US intelligence agencies would be interested in its flight path, to be ready for the next one.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

But most of the time Trump ignored the advice and information put before him by the US Intelligence agencies, as he knew more about anything and everything than everybody else.

 

And he still believes that he does, which is the sad thing.

 

He appointed people into positions and if they repeatedly told him things he did not want to hear, he fired them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations

 

Many political appointees of Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, resigned or were dismissed. The record-setting turnover rate in the first year of the Trump Administration has been noted in various publications.[1][2][3] Several Trump appointees, including National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci, and Secretary of Health and Human Services Tom Price have had the shortest service tenures in the history of their respective offices.

 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/tracking-turnover-in-the-trump-administration/

Bill, I think that you of all would recognize the term "brass hats". The only one close to that club on your list was ex General Flynn, who was forced to resign for allegedly misleading Pence about his conversations with the Russian envoy.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Isaan sailor said:

Just glad that dude in Billings looked out his office window.  Otherwise, Chinese spy balloon would pass over America unnoticed and unreported.

I think it was noticed but perhaps the plan was to keep this quiet??

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

BTW, here's another one who's talking out of his posterior:

 

Rep. Ted Lieu Bursts Newt Gingrich's Balloon In High-Flying Fact-Check

 

"“We had plenty of capacity to scoop that balloon out of the air,” Gingrich said Monday on Fox News, “we used to do it all the time.”

But Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.) ― who served in the Air Force ― was standing by with a fact-check, writing on Twitter: "Having served on active duty, I know for a fact the US does not have a balloon scooper aircraft. Newt Gingrich, who never served in the military, has no idea what he is talking about."

 

Newt's quoted words here are actually correct, because he uses the past tense. The Skyhook and Fulton recovery systems were used by the US until 1996.

 

Maybe they kept a set of kit in the museum, Just for posterity of course.

[billd766]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Bill, I think that you of all would recognize the term "brass hats". The only one close to that club on your list was ex General Flynn, who was forced to resign for allegedly misleading Pence about his conversations with the Russian envoy.

I do understand brass hats but many of the people that Trump "promoted" and then dumped, should never have been put into those positions in the first place.

 

That they were, smacks more of Trump's incompetence, than it does of those people themselves.

 

I worked with managers most of my life, occasionally being one myself and in 50 years I don't suppose I worked with more than 5 or 6 I respected and that included 25 years in the RAF.

 

You can promote people to way beyond their capabilities but that doesn't mean that they can do the job.

 

In the UK civil service (I was one of them as well), there used to be 2 rules.

 

1   It is Buggins turn next.

 

2   People were promoted to their level of incompetence and remained there blocking promotions until they retired.

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

I do understand brass hats but many of the people that Trump "promoted" and then dumped, should never have been put into those positions in the first place.

 

That they were, smacks more of Trump's incompetence, than it does of those people themselves.

 

I worked with managers most of my life, occasionally being one myself and in 50 years I don't suppose I worked with more than 5 or 6 I respected and that included 25 years in the RAF.

 

You can promote people to way beyond their capabilities but that doesn't mean that they can do the job.

 

In the UK civil service (I was one of them as well), there used to be 2 rules.

 

1   It is Buggins turn next.

 

2   People were promoted to their level of incompetence and remained there blocking promotions until they retired.

I think all that happens in most organizations and I  could say the same about several of Biden's appointees. However, the brass hats are senior military (career) officers who have far more experience in their own fields than most civilian White House staffers, who drift in and out of different appointments.