From Brexit to Rejoin - The Inflection Point.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

The EU is all white, so how can a vote to leave be racist?

Only a Brexiteer could come up with a statement like that....wrong on every level.

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Indeed.  It may take a few years or even decades, but the next generation will insist we re-join and this time it will mean accepting the euro too.

That's quite the jump you've made, from a meeting to discuss improving relations with the EU to rejoining and accepting the Euro ????. 

 

I'd say it's more likely that the EU will no longer exist in it's current form in decades from now.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

Only a Brexiteer could come up with a statement like that....wrong on every level.

We're trying to have a sensible discussion here, why don't you take the race baiting to another thread?

[paddypower]

5 hours ago, Tish 2 said:

Get that chip off your shoulder Paddy,i can see it from here.

By the way i'm a bricklayer and whilst working in Dublin was told to fxxk off to my own country more than once.

forgot to include ''WARNING IRISH HUMOUR COMING YOUR  WAY. We're a merry bunch (esp. after winning against a terrific French rugby side, last Sat.).  I'd never tell a fellow to go anywhere - i do not have any right. So let me appologise on behalf of those who did not act in the spirit of Ireland.  The point which you may have missed is this. I am sick to death of meeting moaning English (not Brits, notably) who are (i) economic refugees here (ii) voted Brexit and (iii) tell you that what has gone wrong in England is due to those pesky foreigners.

[Purdey]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The EU is all white, so how can a vote to leave be racist?

There were many who thought sovereignty would mean all colored foreigners (as well as white Europeans) would be ejected without the EU to stop it.

 

We are not talking about the sharpest knives in the cupboard. 

 

I don't understand why you think racist attacks on Muslims originating from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh after the referendum (there was a huge rise in hate crimes starting from the day after the vote), were not caused by racists who didn't understand or care that those people they attacked were actually British. The news at the time was full of it. I can guess that not many Poles are Muslim. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/27/europe/racist-attacks-post-brexit/index.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html%3famp
https://www.vox.com/2016/6/23/12005814/brexit-eu-referendum-immigrants
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-david-cameron-nigel-farage-council-of-europe-report-racist-violence-intolerance-hate-speech-uk-terrorism-refugee-crisis-a7345166.html
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-racism-immigration-eu-referendum-result-what-it-means-eurospectic-areas-a7165056.html?amp
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/eu-referendum-muslims_uk_576e558ce4b08d2c563937ff/

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Purdey said:

Look, Brexit was a decision based on racism, not economics. British people of southeast Asian origin were taunted the very next day with  "You're going home!" And "Go back to where you come from."

Where they came from was often Birmingham or Nottingham. 

Ordinary people don't understand trade, economics or industries. In their minds they understood that "millions of dark*es are flooding Britain."

You can't expect these people to have sensible reasons. 

 

There were many reasons why people voted for Brexit, I don’t believe racism was a significant factor, I rather think xenophobia, not racism, was more significant.

 

That’s not to say Leave Campaigners did not play to racist themes nor to deny racism had some part to play amongst some voters.

Either way, it is not relevant to the topic.

Though I’m sure Brexiteers would rather argue that point than address the fact the Government are clearly signaling a reversal from hard Brexit.

 

 

[paddypower]

3 hours ago, theoldgit said:

 

Like everyone elses opinion, it's probably based on my own gut feeling, I'd certainly welcome any meaningful evidence to prove me wrong.

I'll back that feeling. I mean, all you have to do is pull up the ''fear bating'' stuff out of the media, that Nigel Farage et al published. The lies about the 'savings if we leave'' ;  ''the cost if we stay'' . It was rubbish. swallowed whole by a lazy ignorant voting public. and I'll add that us Irish are equally gullible. We went through the same thing in Canada, in 1995 with the Quebec Independence Referendum. The country was saved by the slimmest of margins.

[RayC]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

They've certainly messed it up, on that we can agree.

 

By trying to please everyone, they have pleased nobody.

 

They should have done a proper Brexit. WTO terms if necessary. The NI protocol is a mess. The solution is not to rejoin, but to scrap the protocol and leave the ECHR. 

 

Rejoining would be an absolute disaster. A complete non starter. Especially as they head into recession in 2023. Better for everyone to pull together and make it a success than banging on about the same petty arguments since 2016.

 

https://www.wellington.com/en/insights/europe-economic-outlook-2023#:~:text=We expect the euro area,mild start to the winter.

 

An all-out trade war with the EU? I  doubt that Sunak is that stupid but, if he is, I wonder how long - and much it will cost - before the markets force him to U-turn?

[paddypower]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There were many reasons why people voted for Brexit, I don’t believe racism was a significant factor, I rather think xenophobia, not racism, was more significant.

 

That’s not to say Leave Campaigners did not play to racist themes nor to deny racism had some part to play amongst some voters.

 

 

Racism is an overplayed word. Its somewhat similar to the misuse of the terms anti-semitism and anti-zionism. By the way when i was much younger, I used to think that zenophobia was a musical instrument.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, paddypower said:

Racism is an overplayed word. Its somewhat similar to the misuse of the terms anti-semitism and anti-zionism. By the way when i was much younger, I used to think that zenophobia was a musical instrument.

We should have a thread on that.

 

This isn’t it. 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Not going to happen. Much like Scottish Independence it is but a pipe dream for those who cannot accept reality.

 

I am all for improving relations with the EU, but I'm afraid the ball is in their court on that one. If they stop trying to divide the UK using tools such as the NI protocol then we could sit down and have a mature discussion with them, but I suspect they will be sulking about us rejecting them for at least another decade. It's a shame they cannot be more pragmatic since as many of us predicted, Brexit has hit them very hard as their largest economy (Germany) shrinks, likely into recession.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-economy-unexpectedly-shrinks-q4-2023-01-30/

I see that you are still peddling that old chestnut about "them needing us more than we need them". Not according to the OBR, FT, LSE, The Economist. But hey, never believe the experts.

[Tish 2]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

forgot to include ''WARNING IRISH HUMOUR COMING YOUR  WAY. We're a merry bunch (esp. after winning against a terrific French rugby side, last Sat.).  I'd never tell a fellow to go anywhere - i do not have any right. So let me appologise on behalf of those who did not act in the spirit of Ireland.  The point which you may have missed is this. I am sick to death of meeting moaning English (not Brits, notably) who are (i) economic refugees here (ii) voted Brexit and (iii) tell you that what has gone wrong in England is due to those pesky foreigners.

Cheers Paddy.One of my best mates was from Donegal.We used to meet up on Saturday lunch for a drink after work.Always great fun until his 8th or 9th pint then i would be just another Black and Tan basxxxd.hahaha.

and yes we always met up again the following week.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

But hey, never believe the experts.

The experts never seem that useful to me.

They wanted the countries closed for 2 years, that didn't go too well.

They told us all to wear masks, an get vaccinated 4+ times, but we still all caught COVID.

 

Experts have agendas, usually financially motivated agendas.

[youreavinalaff]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Right, so the Government convene a conference together with prominent supporters of Remain and you ignore what that’s telling you and go off on a ‘withdraw from the ECHR’ thing.

 

Firstly, the ECHR is absolutely nothing to do with the EU or Brexit, secondly this conference is nothing to do with what’s happening in the Eurozone, it’s about admitting the damage Brexit is doing to the UK, reversing the policy of antagonism towards the EU and examining better cooperation with the EU.

 

My punt is first off, ditch Rees Mogg’s  lunatic idea to repeal the so called ‘residual EU laws and regulations’.

 

I also suggest give up on the hopes you’ve been fed on ditching the ECHR.

 

It ain’t going to happen.

 

Hard Brexit is dead.

The headline says the meeting was held in secret.

 

You seem to know so much about it. Were you there?

[RayC]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

The experts never seem that useful to me.

They wanted the countries closed for 2 years, that didn't go too well.

They told us all to wear masks, an get vaccinated 4+ times, but we still all caught COVID.

 

Experts have agendas, usually financially motivated agendas.

So you'd trust an unqualified quack with your health and an unsuccessful gambler with your wealth?

[Joe Farang]

15 hours ago, wombat said:

UK regained its sovereignty...

That was not a bad Idea.

While Australia still bends the knee to the King of England.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

We're trying to have a sensible discussion here, why don't you take the race baiting to another thread?

Only a Brexiteer would take offence at that and why is it that racists spend so much time arguing that things aren't recist?

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

The headline says the meeting was held in secret.

 

You seem to know so much about it. Were you there?

Erm, I read the widely published news reports.

 

Holding a meeting ‘in secret’ and keeping the ‘facts of that meeting secret’ are two entirely different things.

[JayClay]

16 hours ago, fvw53 said:

It illustrates the danger of referendums in which badly informed people vote based on a gut feeling / also referendums should obtain at least 60% to be credible

 

 

While I agree that a move away from the status quo should have a much higher threshold,  the biggest problem with the referendum was that there was no "don't know" option.

 

People are encouraged to go out and make their voices heard but there's never a way to express that you don't know or don't feel represented, so they are forced to make a decision one way or another.

 

16 hours ago, theoldgit said:

 

Like everyone elses opinion, it's probably based on my own gut feeling, I'd certainly welcome any meaningful evidence to prove me wrong.

This is the first link I found on the subject but there are many around, and much more recent than this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-uk-eu-frans-timmermans-withdrawal-boris-johnson-a9260356.html

 

It's hard to believe when you watch the clowns in control of the UK doing their thing, but grown up politics isn't petty. The UK rejoining the EU would be a mutually beneficial agreement so an agreement would be come to.

[brewsterbudgen]

16 hours ago, JonnyF said:

That's quite the jump you've made, from a meeting to discuss improving relations with the EU to rejoining and accepting the Euro ????. 

 

I'd say it's more likely that the EU will no longer exist in it's current form in decades from now.

Your last point is definitely a possibility, and no bad thing if it's replaced by a closer democratic union of European nations, with the UK playing a full part.

[paddypower]

14 hours ago, Tish 2 said:

Cheers Paddy.One of my best mates was from Donegal.We used to meet up on Saturday lunch for a drink after work.Always great fun until his 8th or 9th pint then i would be just another Black and Tan basxxxd.hahaha.

and yes we always met up again the following week.

I grew up in Limerick - so we had our share of rebel songs. - and great pubs.

wondering if i'd enjoy Colin Farrell & Brendan Gleeson's latest.

[youreavinalaff]

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm, I read the widely published news reports.

 

Holding a meeting ‘in secret’ and keeping the ‘facts of that meeting secret’ are two entirely different things.

Assuming what went on and discussing what you read,  with your selective reading goggles on, are two entirely different things.

[JonnyF]

14 hours ago, kwilco said:

Only a Brexiteer would take offence at that and why is it that racists spend so much time arguing that things aren't recist?

You're the one who introduced race into the thread.

 

Like I said, take your race baiting nonsense elsewhere, we are discussing the future relationship between the UK and the EU. If you lack the intellect to debate that, by all means feel free to lower the tone by screaming Racist on another thread. 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You're the one who introduced race into the thread.

As ever a Brexiteer gets it wrong - I was replying to a post.... Race played a strong part in Brexit - racists used immigration and lies about who could and couldn't join the EU specifically to play one people's racist misbeliefs.

Racists always use the same cliches instead of arguments - like "play the race card" as i=f that has any relevance to the discussion - they just can't stand to be exposed as racist..

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As ever a Brexiteer gets it wrong - I was replying to a post.... Race played a strong part in Brexit - racists used immigration and lies about who could and couldn't join the EU specifically to play one people's racist misbeliefs.

Racists always use the same cliches instead of arguments - like "play the race card" as i=f that has any relevance to the discussion - they just can't stand to be exposed as racist..

You seem to be confused between legal immigration, illegal immigration and racism.

 

This thread is about the relationship between the EU and the UK going forward.

 

Stop using strawman arguments and race baiting in an attempt to drag the conversation into the gutter just because you have nothing of value to add to the topic. 

[puchooay]

13 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As ever a Brexiteer gets it wrong - I was replying to a post.... Race played a strong part in Brexit - racists used immigration and lies about who could and couldn't join the EU specifically to play one people's racist misbeliefs.

Racists always use the same cliches instead of arguments - like "play the race card" as i=f that has any relevance to the discussion - they just can't stand to be exposed as racist..

There is a flaw in your thinking. We are talking EU. That is Europe. All member states of EU are European.

 

How can one be racist against their own race? 

 

[kwilco]

10 minutes ago, puchooay said:

There is a flaw in your thinking. We are talking EU. That is Europe. All member states of EU are European.

 

How can one be racist against their own race? 

 

That is clearly a racist view - There is stupid, stupider and racist.....the idea you can look at the world in terms of race is scientific nonsense - if you are talking about things like =kin color on the same species =then the EU has every kind of that.

[puchooay]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

That is clearly a racist view - There is stupid, stupider and racist.....the idea you can look at the world in terms of race is scientific nonsense - if you are talking about things like =kin color on the same species =then the EU has every kind of that.

Oh dear. You clearly have hidden agenda clouding your view and ability to comprehend what others write.

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, puchooay said:

have hidden agenda

Another cliche!

[kwilco]

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

legal immigration, illegal immigration

Another racist cliche is calling legal immigrants "illegal" - and this was a big factor that appealed to racism amongst Brexiteers.

not all Brexiteers are racists - but all racists re Brexiteers - the rest are just easily led.