Rule on running engine while refueling

[The Fugitive]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:32 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

Hearsay.  

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[Liverpool Lou]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:34 AM, The Fugitive said:

 

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There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

[The Fugitive]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:40 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

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https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/550135-fire-ignited-by-cell-phone-spark-razes-filling-station-in-badagry.html?tztc=1

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:40 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

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Lightning maybe 

Many saying there is no risk but the experts have a criteria motive when you look at the huge amounts of money I volved in the mobile phone industry .

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:40 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

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There are reports of Lithium Ion batteries in phones igniting....  either in peoples pockets or while being charged etc...  

 

This is why we can’t carry power-banks etc in our checked baggage etc... 

 

So, rather than the idea that any ’signal’ could cause ignition (which is ridiculous IMO), there is a very tiny risk that the phone itself could be an ignition source... It would of-course require the perfect storm of sufficient density of fumes and a litho-ion battery to overheat and ignite at the ‘perfect’ time to cause an incident. 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:44 AM, The Fugitive said:

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:40 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

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https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/550135-fire-ignited-by-cell-phone-spark-razes-filling-station-in-badagry.html?tztc=1

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No confirmation there, either, just a guess from an attendant at a Lagos(!) petrol station.

[Liverpool Lou]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:45 AM, itsari said:

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:40 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

There was no confirmation that the phone was the cause.

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Lightning maybe 

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Running car engines and phones do not cause lightning.

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:44 AM, The Fugitive said:

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/550135-fire-ignited-by-cell-phone-spark-razes-filling-station-in-badagry.html?tztc=1

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You're citing source from a regional tabloid which itself uses speculation and suggestion as proof that ‘using’ Mobile Phones can ignite petrol when the article itself mentions other sources....

 

 

  Quote

Quote from the Article you linked to:

“By our findings, we were told that the driver of the car had already bought petrol into his car.

“When he started the engine, it exploded;

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But you ignore the above and choose this golden droplet as confirmation bias instead... 

 

  Quote

Quote from the Article you linked to:

"one of the station attendants, reliably told the News Agency of Nigeria (NAN) in Badagry that the fire was ignited by a spark from a cell phone when a motorist picked his call while buying petrol into a container."

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....  its more likely that someone causes a spark when wearing nylon under-crackers !!! 

 

 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:55 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

Running car engines and phones do not cause lightning.

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No of course not . But a faulty battery in a car or phone has the potential to cause petrol vapour to explode .

[KannikaP]

  On 3/12/2023 at 6:15 AM, ezzra said:

Frankly, i doubt very much if any of the Thai people knows that it's advisable to turn off engines and not to be on the phone while refueling, but in Thailand, like in Thailand, when a disaster will happen, and it will one day, they will come out to remind everyone what is a commonsense everywhere else.

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Whenever I re-fuel, the attendant puts a large card on my bonnet saying which fuel they are putting in and icons & words in Thai & English saying turn engine off, no phone and no smoking.

The attendant should refuse to re-fuel if those rules are not adhered to.

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:58 AM, KannikaP said:

Whenever I re-fuel, the attendant puts a large card on my bonnet saying which fuel they are putting in and icons & words in Thai & English saying turn engine off, no phone and no smoking.

The attendant should refuse to re-fuel if those rules are not adhered to.

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Thank you 

[Yellowtail]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:52 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

No confirmation there, either, just a guess from an attendant at a Lagos(!) petrol station.

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What about all the smoke damage on the car? 

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:57 AM, itsari said:

No of course not . But a faulty battery in a car or phone has the potential to cause petrol vapour to explode .

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Very true.... a faulty battery. 

 

Would that risk be present if the car was running or not? or if the phone was in use or not?

 

Additionally, isn’t a spark or faulty battery more likely to generate an ingnition source when a car is started ?.... 

 

I suspect phone use itself could be the trigger for a faulty battery to ‘over-heat’.

 

But...  we are edging towards the highly improbable....    

 

 

IS leaving the car running and using the phone realistically any risk at all ????... 

I doubt it... but have no objection to turning off the car and not using my phone at the petrol station anyway. 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:02 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Very true.... a faulty battery. 

 

Would that risk be present if the car was running or not? or if the phone was in use or not?

 

Additionally, isn’t a spark or faulty battery more likely to generate an ingnition source when a car is started ?.... 

 

I suspect phone use itself could be the trigger for a faulty battery to ‘over-heat’.

 

But...  we are edging towards the highly improbable....    

 

 

IS leaving the car running and using the phone realistically any risk at all ????... 

I doubt it... but have no objection to turning off the car and not using my phone at the petrol station anyway. 

 

 

 

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Earlier in the thread was it not pointed out the fumes were heavier than air? If so, how would they get to the battery? 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:02 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Very true.... a faulty battery. 

 

Would that risk be present if the car was running or not? or if the phone was in use or not?

 

Additionally, isn’t a spark or faulty battery more likely to generate an ingnition source when a car is started ?.... 

 

I suspect phone use itself could be the trigger for a faulty battery to ‘over-heat’.

 

But...  we are edging towards the highly improbable....    

 

 

IS leaving the car running and using the phone realistically any risk at all ????... 

I doubt it... but have no objection to turning off the car and not using my phone at the petrol station anyway. 

 

 

 

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When the car is running the alternator is charging the battery and running electricity to the lights etc . Any fault could ignite the petrol vapour coming out from a tank being filled . If you turn on the ignition for starting the engine the cap is back on and any vapour is dispersed by then .

The risk is slim but why take the risk 

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:04 AM, Yellowtail said:

Earlier in the thread was it not pointed out the fumes were heavier than air? If so, how would they get to the battery? 

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In perfectly still conditions fumes would sink...  with some breeze, movement etc... its possible that the (4x) heaver than air fumes don’t pool immediately (they’re still extremely light).

 

The reality it is still extremely difficult to ignite petrol fumes which require and ideal oxygen-fumes ratio (mix).

 

Thus: while the risk is extremely minimal at best we have all read of disasters and tragedies whereby the ‘perfect storm’ occurred in an otherwise low-risk environment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:04 AM, Yellowtail said:

Earlier in the thread was it not pointed out the fumes were heavier than air? If so, how would they get to the battery? 

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Not worth taking the chance to find out if you are right or not

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:58 AM, KannikaP said:

The attendant should refuse to re-fuel if those rules are not adhered to.

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Anyone remember the Lambo driver who slapped the petrol attendant for spilling fuel on his car ?

 

So... whats going to happen when an unhinged tool with a superiority complex is told what to do by someone in who Thailands pseudo-caste system who is considered way below them ???

 

 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 6:32 AM, Yellowtail said:

Well it does seem to take quite a long time to fill and it's hot. If you roll the windows down, it smells like fuel. 

 

If the staff asks me to turn it off, I turn it off. I think the fumes from the fuel is more hazardous than the exhaust.  

 

 

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Just turn the engine off , end of story

[Liverpool Lou]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:01 AM, Yellowtail said:

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:52 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

No confirmation there, either, just a guess from an attendant at a Lagos(!) petrol station.

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What about all the smoke damage on the car? 

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What about it?  Smoke damage does not mean that a phone started the fire.

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 9:11 AM, itsari said:

When the car is running the alternator is charging the battery and running electricity to the lights etc . Any fault could ignite the petrol vapour coming out from a tank being filled . If you turn on the ignition for starting the engine the cap is back on and any vapour is dispersed by then .

The risk is slim but why take the risk 

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Solid points... all make sense to me. 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 1:37 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Solid points... all make sense to me. 

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Thank you 

[richard_smith237]

  On 3/12/2023 at 1:36 PM, itsari said:

  On 3/12/2023 at 1:34 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

You must be right because there's been so many of those incidents, all officially investigated and confirmed by experts to be caused by phones and reported everywhere.   Oh, hang on, no there hasn't, there have been none whatsoever that conclusively proved that.

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Then you need to investigate deeper .

Rare yes , but this is easy to alleviate by just turning of your engine .

 

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There are two facets to this debate it seems...

1) Engine running in a car while filling up.

2) Phone usage while at a petrol station.

 

I think the engine running point is a valid one - your point a few posts up make perfect sense. 

 

The phone aspect seems a little off to me... Litho-Ion batteries have been known to ignite... but that seems to be whether using them or not - so I’m not sure that there is any valid evidence to back up that using a phone at a petrol station is risky or not.

 

What I do know is that in some industrial environments (i.e. petrochemical / O&G) that phones must be intrinsically safe (Ex Proof) - thus there must be some risk from the electrical connections inside the phone igniting the right petroleum fume-oxygen mixture ... but again, those connections exist whether the phone is in use or not. 

[scorecard]

  On 3/12/2023 at 5:23 AM, PJ71 said:

So the man comes and waits with you down the street?

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Seems to be a bit slow at comprehension ...

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

The FCC and NFPA looked into the mobile phone as ignition source at gas stations and this is the FCC statement:

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

  On 3/12/2023 at 1:42 PM, richard_smith237 said:

There are two facets to this debate it seems...

1) Engine running in a car while filling up.

2) Phone usage while at a petrol station.

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I think that there's three...

3)  Any officially confirmed reports of 1) or 2) ever causing an incident? 

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 1:42 PM, richard_smith237 said:

There are two facets to this debate it seems...

1) Engine running in a car while filling up.

2) Phone usage while at a petrol station.

 

I think the engine running point is a valid one - your point a few posts up make perfect sense. 

 

The phone aspect seems a little off to me... Litho-Ion batteries have been known to ignite... but that seems to be whether using them or not - so I’m not sure that there is any valid evidence to back up that using a phone at a petrol station is risky or not.

 

What I do know is that in some industrial environments (i.e. petrochemical / O&G) that phones must be intrinsically safe (Ex Proof) - thus there must be some risk from the electrical connections inside the phone igniting the right petroleum fume-oxygen mixture ... but again, those connections exist whether the phone is in use or not. 

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There is evidence of phones exploding while being charged .

If you are charging in a car or motorcycle then there is a chance of a explosion while refilling at a service station

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

  On 3/12/2023 at 8:22 AM, itsari said:

Yes it has been known before .

There was an explosion caused by a mobil phone one time that I have read about when the user received a call while filling up the tank.

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That's an urban myth. No such explosion has ever occurred.

 

As the "How Stuff Works" article below states:

 

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there has been no documented case of a cell phone starting a fire at a gas station [source: Petroleum Equipment Institute].

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Will using a cell phone at a gas pump make it explode?

[itsari]

  On 3/12/2023 at 2:08 PM, GroveHillWanderer said:

That's an urban myth. No such explosion has ever occurred.

 

As the "How Stuff Works" article below states:

 

Will using a cell phone at a gas pump make it explode?

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If you believe that then all well and good.

If a phone can burst into flames on the users bed side then the phone. Can do the same while being  charged in a car or motorcycle.

 

[ballpoint]

The only reason to turn your engine off while refuelling...