Immigration officer complaining about my visa exemption

[Parker2100]

8 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

 

 

8 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

It certainly does but could it be that that flexibility is the root cause of the problem? 

I was thinking the same thing.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Parker2100

[Plern]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:32 AM, Regyai said:

This was the precise scenario that the Multi-entry Tourist Visa was concocted for.

Not really, at best you get a double now as I understood a decade back.

 

I see no issue with this guy RnR in Thailand on this type of visa.

 

This poor attitude really needs adjustment. They beg for arrival numbers and then hassle everyone.

 

I think this case is far different than some chancer living in between Thailand and Cambodia border hopping or whatever.

 

I actually think they are just conditioned to complain to every single male that enters. Always pretty smooth with the wife. Far better experience than 20 yrs prior

[BritTim]

7 hours ago, Plern said:

Not really, at best you get a double now as I understood a decade back.

Double and triple entry tourist visas were discontinued a number of years back, and replaced with the six month multiple entry tourist visa only available from your home country (or country of residence).

[Felton Jarvis]

Totally a Thai thing. These pampered government functionaries, complain about the very thing that makes their incomes possible. Without expats, there would be no need for the vastly inflated work force that makes up the Immigration department. We provide these complaining malcontents with JOBS and their lack of understanding of simple economics prevents them from seeing the big picture.

[richard_smith237]

In a very similar boat I saw this writing on the wall over a decade ago.... 

Early 30's so no retirement Visa option. Not married (at the time) so no Non-Imm Option. 

 

I ended up getting the LifeTime (at the time) Elite Membership that solved any potential issues with frequent in and out Trips. 

 

Op has a very clear option to go the retirement Visa route. 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Totally a Thai thing. These pampered government functionaries, complain about the very thing that makes their incomes possible. Without expats, there would be no need for the vastly inflated work force that makes up the Immigration department. We provide these complaining malcontents with JOBS and their lack of understanding of simple economics prevents them from seeing the big picture.

Erm....  entitled hyperbolae much ???

 

The biggest part of Immigrations work load is dealing with migrant labourers not 'pampered expats' !!!! 

[Plern]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

Double and triple entry tourist visas were discontinued a number of years back, and replaced with the six month multiple entry tourist visa only available from your home country (or country of residence).

Haha, yeah I think my last double TR was 2010.

 

Well, that is both good and bad news for him. Mostly bad. It is no wonder why he'd take another route especially when it would probably take a week in some random country. Total idiocy. My guess his financials are top 1% of those visiting Thailand. They moan.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Plern

[Parker2100]

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Erm....  entitled hyperbolae much ???

 

The biggest part of Immigrations work load is dealing with migrant labourers not 'pampered expats' !!!! 

Wish immigration thought of it like that.  If they have proof positive someone does not work in Thailand, it does not change their behavior one bit.

[Srikcir]

See if you qualify for the Long Term Resident visa. Unlimited free re-entries and fast track through immigration.

[richard_smith237]

27 minutes ago, Parker2100 said:

20 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Erm....  entitled hyperbolae much ???

 

The biggest part of Immigrations work load is dealing with migrant labourers not 'pampered expats' !!!! 

Wish immigration thought of it like that.  If they have proof positive someone does not work in Thailand, it does not change their behavior one bit.

Au contraire....  permission of 'entry' is down to the discretion of the Immigration officer and also within a legal framework. 

An Expat showing proof that he has overseas work may be (I'd argue is likely to) sufficient evidence to allow them to use their discretion and accept that the returning expat is not working in Thailand. 

 

The Immigration officers are not terrible ogres...  People / the general public can be rude arrogant pigs and I imagine spending hours a day dealing with arrivals must be a horrifically demoralising job....  Sometimes, we catch an Immigration officer on the wrong side of a mood-swing (they're just human)...  

 

AND.. IF an immigration officer is not 'playing ball' you can ask to see their supervisor there and then. 

 

In the past I have had issues on entry.

Immigration wanted to stamp me in for the 1 day remaining on my Work Visa. 

I'd completed the contract while overseas and was no longer working in Thailand, but had one day remaining on my extension of stay (with Multi-rentry permit).

Immigration officer stamped me in for one day which indicated that I'd have to fly out the following day and re-enter of my Elite Visa !!!...

Of course, I argued and asked him to change the stamp and stamp me in on my Elite Visa. He wouldn't. I was polite, firm and stubborn and called over a supervisory officer, who sided with the younger Immigration officer. Still polite, still firm, still stubborn, I asked to see a 'more senior officer' as I wasn't happy to accept this decision.

... The senior supervisor came across and made an instant decision...  with an "Of course you can enter on your Thai Elite Visa - only giving you one day would ridiculous" (or words to that effect). 

 

Thus: The junior officer at the desk does not have the final say and there can be dialogue especially IF a returning expect has proof that their 'reason to reject' may be based on flawed opinion or information that can easily be countered. 

 

 

[Parker2100]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Au contraire....  permission of 'entry' is down to the discretion of the Immigration officer and also within a legal framework. 

An Expat showing proof that he has overseas work may be (I'd argue is likely to) sufficient evidence to allow them to use their discretion and accept that the returning expat is not working in Thailand. 

 

The Immigration officers are not terrible ogres...  People / the general public can be rude arrogant pigs and I imagine spending hours a day dealing with arrivals must be a horrifically demoralising job....  Sometimes, we catch an Immigration officer on the wrong side of a mood-swing (they're just human)...  

 

AND.. IF an immigration officer is not 'playing ball' you can ask to see their supervisor there and then. 

 

In the past I have had issues on entry.

Immigration wanted to stamp me in for the 1 day remaining on my Work Visa. 

I'd completed the contract while overseas and was no longer working in Thailand, but had one day remaining on my extension of stay (with Multi-rentry permit).

Immigration officer stamped me in for one day which indicated that I'd have to fly out the following day and re-enter of my Elite Visa !!!...

Of course, I argued and asked him to change the stamp and stamp me in on my Elite Visa. He wouldn't. I was polite, firm and stubborn and called over a supervisory officer, who sided with the younger Immigration officer. Still polite, still firm, still stubborn, I asked to see a 'more senior officer' as I wasn't happy to accept this decision.

... The senior supervisor came across and made an instant decision...  with an "Of course you can enter on your Thai Elite Visa - only giving you one day would ridiculous" (or words to that effect). 

 

Thus: The junior officer at the desk does not have the final say and there can be dialogue especially IF a returning expect has proof that their 'reason to reject' may be based on flawed opinion or information that can easily be countered. 

 

 

You think Thailand is governed by logic and written rules? Ahahahaha!

 

Who do you complain to that speaks English? Or french, as you like to spice your posts with?

 

And you were satisfied that you had to go to all that trouble and were lucky enough to get IOs that speak English?  And you were one unreasonable officer away from a lot of trouble.  I think you were just really lucky.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Parker2100
Grammar

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed along with replies.

 

[Skipalongcassidy]

And never go to the incoming immigration line with a harridan... I made this mistake last week when coming back from Hong Kong with my Thai wife and the IO was hard put to let me re-enter... as her last statement was to skip a page in my PP and stamped my re-entry therefore wasting both sides of the skipped page.

[sidneybear]

If the OP is cashed up, he could consider an elite visa, and come and go as he pleases for 20 years.

[richard_smith237]

15 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

You think Thailand is governed by logic and written rules? Ahahahaha!

Erm.. ok...     I'm not sure what your point is other than to make a non-evidence based argument for the sake of it.

 

15 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

Who do you complain to that speaks English? Or french, as you like to spice your posts with?

Many Non-commissioned junior Immigration officers speak a little English (some more), most commissioned officers speak a decent level of English and Senior Commissioned officers speak very good English.

 

15 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

And you were satisfied that you had to go to all that trouble and were lucky enough to get IOs that speak English? 

The issue took 10mins and was initially irritating which is why I asked for a senior officer - the point was to highlight that these issues can be discussed with Immigration officers and then resolved. 

 

15 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

And you were one unreasonable officer away from a lot of trouble.  I think you were just really lucky.

No luck at all.... The logic and written rules that you don't believe exist (as per your comment at the beginning of your comment) took president. 

 

It was the junior officers who were unsure of the rules, the senior officers we're very easy to speak with... no issues thereon in.

 

Of course, people scared of their own shadow who would simply believe that 'Thailand has no logic or rules' and accept whatever decision is made on the spot will simply come on here and complain about it. 

 

 

Advice was for the OP: IF questioned by the junior Immigration desk officer who does not want to permit entry (working an overseas 28/28 rotation) he can request a senior officer to discuss the matter with - the officers have discretion and IF he can show overseas contracts etc there is a very strong probability the Immigration officer understands his situation. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

7 hours ago, sidneybear said:

If the OP is cashed up, he could consider an elite visa, and come and go as he pleases for 20 years.

The perfect solution for someone in such a similar situation under 50 and unmarried.

 

But, the Op doesn't need any of that - he can easily obtain a Retirement Visa, or a Non-Imm-O based on marriage to a Thai (if Married) and yearly extensions of.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Parker2100]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Erm.. ok...     I'm not sure what your point is other than to make a non-evidence based argument for the sake of it.

 

Many Non-commissioned junior Immigration officers speak a little English (some more), most commissioned officers speak a decent level of English and Senior Commissioned officers speak very good English.

 

The issue took 10mins and was initially irritating which is why I asked for a senior officer - the point was to highlight that these issues can be discussed with Immigration officers and then resolved. 

 

No luck at all.... The logic and written rules that you don't believe exist (as per your comment at the beginning of your comment) took president. 

 

It was the junior officers who were unsure of the rules, the senior officers we're very easy to speak with... no issues thereon in.

 

Of course, people scared of their own shadow who would simply believe that 'Thailand has no logic or rules' and accept whatever decision is made on the spot will simply come on here and complain about it. 

 

 

Advice was for the OP: IF questioned by the junior Immigration desk officer who does not want to permit entry (working an overseas 28/28 rotation) he can request a senior officer to discuss the matter with - the officers have discretion and IF he can show overseas contracts etc there is a very strong probability the Immigration officer understands his situation. 

 

 

I don't need to support anything.  People who read this and know Thailand know exactly what I am talking about.

 

And they know you are deluded or a shill.

 

You cannot argue against peoples personal experiences.

 

 

[Parker2100]

8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The perfect solution for someone in such a similar situation under 50 and unmarried.

 

But, the Op doesn't need any of that - he can easily obtain a Retirement Visa, or a Non-Imm-O based on marriage to a Thai (if Married) and yearly extensions of.... 

 

 

 

 

 

Since IOs have discretion, someone could have a Retirement Visa or even an Elite Visa and Immigration could subjectively decide they are working.

 

In your case, you had two suspicious IOs because you had an expiring work permit.  You wanted to enter on your Elite Visa.  Presumably, the first two IOs thought you would continue to work without a valid permit on the Elite Visa.  They had no evidence to think this but they don't need any.

 

The senior IO could have easily sided with the first two subordinates based on suspicion alone.

 

I know, from experience, you can be following all the rules and still get turned away on suspicion alone.

 

You were just lucky.

 

Probably, your "Elite Visa" status meant to the superior officer that you have resources and they want people like that in Thailand.

 

Even with that, you almost got booted.  What does that say about how the average Joe (who visits less than 180 days a year) is treated by immigration when coming in on a Visa or just a stamp?

 

Your case is NOT a good example for the original post.  If anything, it serves to show how arbitrary Immigration is with repeat visitors.

 

 

[DrJack54]

20 minutes ago, Parker2100 said:

What does that say about how the average Joe (who visits less than 180 days a year) is treated by immigration when coming in on a Visa or just a stamp?

You and other chap have polluted the thread. 

There is no 180 day rule.

 

Stick with the OP situation.

He previously had a non O retirement with extensions and multi reentry permit.

That's exactly what he should now do.

 

This thread in the main is 6 pages of rubbish.

The OP has a trouble free option.

Granted more expensive but the option that matches his needs. 

NOTE: the OP has last visited forum 10 days ago.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by DrJack54

[Parker2100]

8 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You and other chap have polluted the thread. 

There is no 180 day rule.

 

Stick with the OP situation.

He previously had a non O retirement with extensions and multi reentry permit.

That's exactly what he should now do.

 

This thread in the main is 6 pages of rubbish.

The OP has a trouble free option.

Granted more expensive but the option that matches his needs. 

NOTE: the OP has last visited forum 10 days ago.

 

 

No, there is no 180 -writen- rule but it is a metric Immigration uses to decide if you are living in Thailand in tourist status.  It is real tool that Immigration uses.  Ignore it, and you will be hear whining in a few months.

 

They didn't enforce it in the COVID years, but I have read many accounts where they are now.

 

That was kinda my point, Immigration does not need written rules to boot you.  You could be following all the rules you know about and still get in trouble.

 

As you said, the OP had what he needed and he still had problems.

 

I suspect you will see many more of post like this in the coming months or maybe even years.

 

 

[DrJack54]

18 minutes ago, Parker2100 said:

As you said, the OP had what he needed and he still had problems.

You are missing the point.

Pre covid oil gas workers were receiving warnings of "do not use visa exempt entries"

 

Many of those guys were married to Thai.

Or in case of OP over 50.

They had options.

 

In my personal experience I first came to Thailand already 50+.

 

I was travelling to Saigon every month for years. 

In those days that Thai consulate provided triple entry visa to Thailand.

I was living in Thailand.

 

At some point the helpful io lady at Saigon consulate said....

"You are over 50. Next time get a non O retirement, you live in  Thailand " 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by DrJack54

[poohy]

On 6/10/2023 at 5:37 AM, DrJack54 said:

You would not be obtaining a ME Non O retirement inside Thailand.

That is a visa with one year validity and can be applied for at Savannakhet

 

You can obtain a Non O in Thailand from a tourist visa entry conversion using TM86 and other requirements.

Subsequently obtain 12 month extension.

You would also need to obtain multi reentry permit. 

 

You would need to check with Jomtien if they are still processing a non O from visa exempt entry using form TM86. 

 

Medical insurance is not required for non O or extensions 

 

Given the nature of your work and travel you could consider using agent

Especially living in Jomtien where many good ones

Transfer to retirement visa plus multiple re entry

An agent can assist and expediate this with this cost is around 30K

Edited June 25, 2023 by poohy

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, poohy said:

An agent can assist with this cost is around 30K

Well that's obvious as indicated in my post.

You didn't even suggest agent.

Maneerat would be one he could contact in Pattaya. 

[Parker2100]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

You are missing the point.

Pre covid oil gas workers were receiving warnings of "do not use visa exempt entries"

 

Many of those guys were married to Thai.

Or in case of OP over 50.

They had options.

 

In my personal experience I first came to Thailand already 50+.

 

I was travelling to Saigon every month for years. 

In those days that Thai consulate provided triple entry visa to Thailand.

I was living in Thailand.

 

At some point the helpful io lady at Saigon consulate said....

"You are over 50. Next time get a non O retirement, you live in  Thailand " 

 

 

The memos to the Oil & Gas workers was not in the OP.  But it would make sense for the reasons I have been explaining.

 

Your post does not disagree with anything I have been saying and it is important for everyone to know.  Not just oil/gas workers.

 

Telling people there is no 180 day rule does not help.  If people believe you, you are setting them up for trouble.

 

There shouldn't be such a rule.  But Immigration uses it, none-the-less?  I have actually seen it written on the Websites of some Consulates. They don't post that because it is a written rule (in that case it is written) but they are warning travelers.  They know what triggers Immigration.

 

It should be written on all the Consolate Websites  But it isn't, be like you and I, they know it isn't a rule Immigration should be imposing.  

 

The mistake many repeat visitors make is that they believe IO discretion works in their favor when many times (most?) it is the opposite.

 

 

 

 

[sidneybear]

14 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The perfect solution for someone in such a similar situation under 50 and unmarried.

 

But, the Op doesn't need any of that - he can easily obtain a Retirement Visa, or a Non-Imm-O based on marriage to a Thai (if Married) and yearly extensions of.... 

Multiply all that O visa uncertainty and hassle twenty times over twenty years though. The carefree elite visa is still a good option for those who can afford it.

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by sidneybear

[DrJack54]

6 hours ago, sidneybear said:

Multiply all that O visa uncertainty and hassle twenty times over twenty years though. The carefree elite visa is still a good option for those who can afford it.

 

The OP never mentioned PE visa.

Living in Thailand he would be well aware of that option.

 

Non O retirement extensions is a simple easy process.

Yes requires funds in Thai bank account. 

No big deal nor is the one trip to immigration per year. 

[NanLaew]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:10 AM, Regyai said:

When do you cease being a tourist?

For the OP, when he gets the Retirement Visa/Extension that he's entitled to. Why create a problem when it isn't necessary?

[BritTim]

12 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

Telling people there is no 180 day rule does not help.  If people believe you, you are setting them up for trouble.

 

There shouldn't be such a rule.  But Immigration uses it, none-the-less?  I have actually seen it written on the Websites of some Consulates. They don't post that because it is a written rule (in that case it is written) but they are warning travelers.  They know what triggers Immigration.

The "180-day rule" is cited on some consulate websites because, long ago, for a short period it did exist. Unfortunately, alongside some complete rubbish, describing rules that have not existed for a decade or more is depressingly common.

 

You are correct that some officials use 180 days in the last year as a yardstick that strongly influences their attitude. Other officials may be more influenced by your age, how you are dressed, and your general behaviour. When it comes to visa exempt entry, the officials have wide discretion in deciding whether you appear to be a tourist.

[Parker2100]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

The "180-day rule" is cited on some consulate websites because, long ago, for a short period it did exist. Unfortunately, alongside some complete rubbish, describing rules that have not existed for a decade or more is depressingly common.

 

You are correct that some officials use 160 days in the last year as a yardstick that strongly influences their attitude. Other officials may be more influenced by your age, how you are dressed, and your general behaviour. When it comes to visa exempt entry, the officials have wide discretion in deciding whether you appear to be a tourist.

You didn't say anything that disagrees with what I said.  But the "180-Rule" is the reason I am not in Thailand right at this moment, or rather, why I have not been back to Thailand since before COVID.  So, it is still taken very seriously.  They kept waving a paper in front of my face that said I was in Thailand 191 days in 2018 and 2019 (Which is 2 years, but I digress).  Then stamped me in for 30 more days but scribbled a note in my passport, that I was trying to live in Thailand.  An attempt to bias future attempts to enter legally.

 

The IO said she is only letting me in because I just came from 60 days in Malaysia & Indonesia.  Which totally blows their reasoning out of the water.

 

So, in 30 days, I went to Cambodia.  Then COVID happened and I have been spending my money here since.

 

So, Thai Immigration can and will, use there "discretion" to pull reasons out of there behind to boot you without a reason other than suspicion. Or saving face if you prove their assertions wrong.

 

That is what the scribbling in my passport was.  Saving face.

 

So I do know what I am talking about.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Parker2100
Spelling corrections

[richard_smith237]

18 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

18 hours ago, Parker2100 said:

What does that say about how the average Joe (who visits less than 180 days a year) is treated by immigration when coming in on a Visa or just a stamp?

You and other chap have polluted the thread. 

Agreed...  they're not worth responding to...   completely misunderstanding the points in their haste to argue....    to such a degree there's the Mark Twain quote to consider....