Trump charged with four counts over 2020 election

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

2.5 years to indict for January 6, but you think they are proceeding quickly?

Well, to be fair, if Trump's lawyers hadn't brought up all sorts of baseless motions that were mostly overruled, the investigation would have been concluded a lot more quickly.

[Yellowtail]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

Previously you claimed that Trump's attorneys would have grounds for appeal on the basis that  only Trump was being prosecuted for the offense of willful possession. That falsehood has been conclusively disproved by examples cited. You've got nothing.

I don't think I ever said that. 

[watthong]

5 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

And this is the opinion of a conservative Hoover Institution senior staffer. And in his opinion, given his credentials, the operative point here is that:

And my "operative" point here is that I don't care a hoot for this "conservative Hoover Institution senior staffer" opinion. Not one bit for neither  "conservative" nor " Hoover" nor  "Institution"  nor "senior" nor his "credentials..."

 

I could post here the link to "slit-throat" De Santis opinion as well. But I refrain myself, just for the sake of other readers on this thread. (You're welcome.)

Edited August 9, 2023 by watthong

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, candide said:

As explained many time:

- Unlike Biden and Pence,Trump intentionally took the documents (his own words),

- Unlike Biden and Pence, Trump refused to give them back and committed an obstruction

Obstruction of what?

[Danderman123]

19 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, I see the difference, they are not Trump. 

Do understand the difference between cooperating with the government to return classified documents, and hiding them?

 

C'mon, it's not a hard question to answer. Show us you're not a troll.

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Obstruction of what?

Failure to comply with a subpeona in regards to return of classified documents.

 

It seems that you wake up every day with no memory of the facts of these cases.

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I am amazed you post so much and know so little.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_classified_documents_incident

 

"On November 2, 2022, Biden's attorneys discovered the first set of classified documents in a locked closet at the Penn Biden Center; they reported them that day to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), which retrieved them the next day. "

 

"In coordination with the Justice Department (DOJ), Biden's attorneys discovered a second set of documents at Biden's home on December 20, followed by several more on January 9 and January 12, 2023. Biden's personal attorney said on January 21 that the Justice Department discovered six items containing classification markings during a consensual search of his home the previous day, some of which dated to his tenure in the Senate; investigators also seized some of Biden's handwritten notes from his vice presidency."

 

I hope you understand the difference between immediate cooperation and *hiding* classified documents, which is what Trump did.

So he had them illegally for 20 years, his lobbyist son had access to them and when he decided to prosecute Trump for having them legally and refusing to return them, he told his lawyers to give them back. 

 

Got it, thanks.

[Yellowtail]

17 hours ago, placeholder said:

The only reason the Justice Dept was searching at all was that Biden's lawyers immediately notified the Justice Dept when they found documents in his University office. And they notified the jusitce dept again when they found documents at his home. And in both cases they invited the Justice Dept to do its own searches. Do I need to spell out how that compares to the way Trump and his attorneys accommodated the Justice Dept?

Another right winger who doesn't understand that it's only willful possession of the unapproved documents that's a crime.

Yeah, Biden had them illegally for years in any number of places.  

[Yellowtail]

17 hours ago, Walker88 said:

As soon as they were discovered, both Pence and Biden allowed FBI teams to search all of their private spaces and remove anything classified they found. Neither man fought the search, neither man lied about it.

 

trump stole, trump lied.  HUGE diffeerence.,

As soon as they knew thew would get caught more like. 

 

And I doubt very much that "...both Pence and Biden allowed FBI teams to search all of their private spaces..." do you have anything that supports that? 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Yellowtail

[xylophone]

19 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I am amazed you post so much and know so little.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_classified_documents_incident

 

"On November 2, 2022, Biden's attorneys discovered the first set of classified documents in a locked closet at the Penn Biden Center; they reported them that day to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), which retrieved them the next day. "

 

"In coordination with the Justice Department (DOJ), Biden's attorneys discovered a second set of documents at Biden's home on December 20, followed by several more on January 9 and January 12, 2023. Biden's personal attorney said on January 21 that the Justice Department discovered six items containing classification markings during a consensual search of his home the previous day, some of which dated to his tenure in the Senate; investigators also seized some of Biden's handwritten notes from his vice presidency."

 

I hope you understand the difference between immediate cooperation and *hiding* classified documents, which is what Trump did.

"I am amazed you post so much and know so little".

 

I agree with you Danderman123, it's been astounding to see the amount of ignorance from the trump cult supporters on this thread, and other threads for that matter. However is it plain ignorance inasmuch as they really don't know, which would fit with the type of people he likes to target as his main audience, or wilful ignorance because they are purely trump supporters?

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by xylophone

[Danderman123]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So he had them illegally for 20 years, his lobbyist son had access to them and when he decided to prosecute Trump for having them legally and refusing to return them, he told his lawyers to give them back. 

 

Got it, thanks.

There were a handful of classified documents hidden among Biden's historical papers. When they were discovered, the government was immediately notified, and the documents returned.

 

If you believe that warrants prosecution, then how about Trump stealing 100s of documents, violating a subpoena, and hiding the documents? Don't you think that Trump should be prosecuted for that?

 

Thanks for playing.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Danderman123

[Danderman123]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Ah the old you're a stupid Trumpist, and I was a CIA operative and now I am a brilliant billionaire philanthropist so all the unsupported garbage I spew should be considered fact argument. 

 

Got it. 

 

So, no disputing the facts in the post you responded to, just an ad hominem attack?

 

You seem to have an aversion to facts. 

 

Classic Trump supporter. We had a similar group almost 200 years ago in America, the "Know Nothing" party.

 

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, Biden had them illegally for years in any number of places.  

Once again, you fail to note that it's only illegal if one knowingly violated the rules. No evidence that Biden purposely kept the documents in violation of the rules. Whereas there's a huge amount of  evidence that Trump did just that. Including an audio of himself confessing as much!

[Danderman123]

19 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As soon as they knew thew would get caught more like. 

 

And I doubt very much that "...both Pence and Biden allowed FBI teams to search all of their private spaces..." do you have anything that supports that? 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_classified_documents_incident

 

"On January 20 the FBI conducted a 13-hour search of the entire premises of Biden's Wilmington home. The next day his personal attorney Bob Bauer revealed the search, saying that the agents had examined "personally handwritten notes, files, papers, binders, memorabilia, to-do lists, schedules, and reminders going back decades".[22] They identified and removed six documents containing classified markings from Biden's home office,[23] some from his time in the Senate and some from his vice presidency.[24] They also took possession of some of his notes. Biden and his wife were at their home in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, at the time.[5][25] CNN reported the search was conducted with the consent of Biden's attorneys, so a subpoena or search warrant was not required."

 

You really don't remember any of this?

 

I guess that's why you are a Trump supporter, no memory.  So when Trump lies about some past event, you just nod your head, because you can't remember what really happened.

 

Meanwhile, your Dear Leader has been indicted 3 times, and you have no idea why.

[placeholder]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As soon as they knew thew would get caught more like. 

 

And I doubt very much that "...both Pence and Biden allowed FBI teams to search all of their private spaces..." do you have anything that supports that? 

 

 

As soon as they knew thew would get caught more like. 

No one was searching for anything until Biden's lawyers found documents at this University office and informed the Justice Dept. Still, I'm sure you wouldn't make such a claim without providing some evidence. Got any?

 

This is evidence for Biden. Both his homes and his university office were searched by the Justice Dept.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/21/1150617734/the-doj-searched-bidens-home-and-found-more-classified-documents

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64488011

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/16/fbi-university-of-delaware-biden-documents

[jerrymahoney]

36 minutes ago, watthong said:

And my "operative" point here is that I don't care a hoot for this "conservative Hoover Institution senior staffer" opinion. Not one bit for neither  "conservative" nor " Hoover" nor  "Institution"  nor "senior" nor his "credentials..."

 

I could post here the link to "slit-throat" De Santis opinion as well. But I refrain myself, just for the sake of other readers on this thread. (You're welcome.)

The NY Times thought his opinion was worth publishing. Nobody says you have to agree with it.

[HappyExpat57]

5 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

That's right. Opinion. As is just about everything else posted on here. And this is the opinion of a conservative Hoover Institution senior staffer. And in his opinion, given his credentials, the operative point here is that:

 

The case involves novel applications of three criminal laws and raises tricky issues of Mr. Trump’s intent, his freedom of speech and the contours of presidential power.

 

45 supporters post opinions. His foes post facts.

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, HappyExpat57 said:

45 supporters post opinions. His foes post facts.

The indicment lists a factual narrative regarding the 4 count indicment. As to whether the factual allegations contained in the 45-page indictment represents violations of the 4 charges is an opinion of the Special Counsel.

[Yellowtail]

55 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

There were a handful of classified documents hidden among Biden's historical papers. When they were discovered, the government was immediately notified, and the documents returned.

 

If you believe that warrants prosecution, then how about Trump stealing 100s of documents, violating a subpoena, and hiding the documents? Don't you think that Trump should be prosecuted for that?

 

Thanks for playing.

So, he was only illegally in possession of a "handful" of classified documents, thanks.  How many can one have before it becomes a crime? 

 

When were they discovered? He sent a team of lawyers to get them. 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

56 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_classified_documents_incident

 

"On January 20 the FBI conducted a 13-hour search of the entire premises of Biden's Wilmington home. The next day his personal attorney Bob Bauer revealed the search, saying that the agents had examined "personally handwritten notes, files, papers, binders, memorabilia, to-do lists, schedules, and reminders going back decades".[22] They identified and removed six documents containing classified markings from Biden's home office,[23] some from his time in the Senate and some from his vice presidency.[24] They also took possession of some of his notes. Biden and his wife were at their home in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, at the time.[5][25] CNN reported the search was conducted with the consent of Biden's attorneys, so a subpoena or search warrant was not required."

 

You really don't remember any of this?

 

I guess that's why you are a Trump supporter, no memory.  So when Trump lies about some past event, you just nod your head, because you can't remember what really happened.

 

Meanwhile, your Dear Leader has been indicted 3 times, and you have no idea why.

Fact Check: False. This only supports the search of one home, not "all of his private spaces". 

 

Nice try though. 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

he decided to prosecute Trump

Did Biden give the orders to prosecute Trump?

Surely not, only Dictators have tried to jail their opponents. 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Neeranam

[Walker88]

7 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

The Prosecution of Trump May Have Terrible Consequences
Aug. 8, 2023

 

(Opinion) It may be satisfying now to see the special counsel Jack Smith indict Donald Trump for his reprehensible and possibly criminal actions in connection with the 2020 presidential election. But the prosecution, which might be justified, reflects a tragic choice that will compound the harms to the nation from Mr. Trump’s many transgressions.

 

Mr. Smith’s indictment outlines a factually compelling but far from legally airtight case against Mr. Trump. The case involves novel applications of three criminal laws and raises tricky issues of Mr. Trump’s intent, his freedom of speech and the contours of presidential power. If the prosecution fails (especially if the trial concludes after a general election that Mr. Trump loses), it will be a historic disaster.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/08/opinion/trump-indictment-cost-danger.html

 

https://archive.is/nMJ04

 

Those fears are understandable. WaPo had another [Opinion] piece a day or so ago where they noted fears of trump's base causing mayhem. Certainly there is precedent for his goobers to get violent, with 6 January being the prime example. Also, trump's thinly veiled threats of sending his foot soldiers pillaging via his social media postings, or even in the 2016 debate when he said something along the lines of his 2nd Amendment people going after Hillary. Certainly many of the terrorists convicted of felonies at the Capitol claimed they were sent by trump.

 

All that being said, there absolutely MUST be greater punishment, other than losing the election, for a guy who tried to overthrow American democracy. The US certainly does not need a repeat, but if trump isn't punished, then I wonder what the reaction will be if a Dem loser begins claiming 'stolen election', calls State officials to 'just find me 11,780 votes', puts together a plan to create fake electors to take the place of legitimate electors in the Electoral College, tries repeatedly to pressure their outgoing VP to refuse the ceremonial duty of certifying what the States already certified, calls supporters to DC for the Inauguration to march to the Capitol and 'fight like hell' and tell them 'you'll never take back your country with weakness', and to top it all off steals hundreds of highly classified documents and takes them home?

[Walker88]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I don't, and don't really like the guy, but I stand up for the persecuted. I don't like anti Trump supremacists. 

I would vote for him, unless the Dems came up with a guy who might make it through the term. The current one wouldn’t, which is bizarre. 

Pencil neck, mcmuffin ????????

 

Persecuted? Like Ted Bundy was persecuted?

[Walker88]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

The reason for the indictment, nothing else. Shown by there desparation to proceed so quickly. 

The DoJ, the government, are so corrupt it's pathetic. 

What is 'there desparation'? Other trumpers are moaning that 'why did it take 2 1/2 years'?

 

Investigations take time. Uncover one thing, it leads to another. SC Smith took time because the case is so unprecedented, and he wasn't even appointed until Nov 22.

 

Now if the "DoJ, the government, are so corrupt it's pathetic", that sounds like you must have dozens of examples. Perhaps you'll post some.

 

Personally, while I cannot prove it, I think it appears to be more than a coincidence that BOTH former FBI Dir James Comey and former Acting FBI Dir Andrew McCabe were both audited by the IRS the same year, while trump was still POTUS.

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You got me, I am full of jealousy and resentment because some toe-rag leftist on a chat-board tells me they were a CIA operative and now they're a billionaire philanthropist. 

 

Maybe it's because you were a lorry driver?

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I don't think I ever said that. 

Yes, you did. You equated the inadvertent possession of classified docs by Pence and Biden with the willful theft of documents by trump.

 

I use 'theft' because 1) he said he took the docs, and 2) he had no right to take the docs. Lacking a right to take something is defined as 'theft'.

 

He added to the crime by lying, saying he returned everything. Fortunately, the DoJ and FBI did not believe him (one suspects a cooperating witness), so they obtained a warrant, searched his country club, and found he still had more than a hundred highly classified documents.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Walker88

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Obstruction of what?

It's just another term for lying.

 

trump claimed he returned everything. He lied. That is obstructing the legal and legitimate work of the DoJ and FBI.

[Yellowtail]

37 minutes ago, xylophone said:

See, I was right!!!! ????

First time for everything. 

[HappyExpat57]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

The indicment lists a factual narrative regarding the 4 count indicment. As to whether the factual allegations contained in the 45-page indictment represents violations of the 4 charges is an opinion of the Special Counsel.

Spoken like a true 45 supporter, using those doggoned alternative facts.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory baiting posts and the replies have been removed.