Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

With kudos to Mr. Lister, I have two sources of current income:

 

US Social Security and what qualifies as an 'annuity' under Article 20 Paragraph 3 of the Thailand-US DTA.

 

That's it.

 

And the annuity is already on record with Thai Immigration via a source-of -funds letter for 65k+ baht per month retirement extension purposes.

 

All this what year was your income stuff or capital versus savings or other gains or inheritance  is foreign to me. And to those who might have to prove a convoluted source and timing of funds to qualify for exemptions and/or deductions, good luck to them. Not my problem

[samtam]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Loint return were phased out in 1992. :)

 

An excellent question that hasn't come up before, the answer is, I don't know! My strongest suspicion is that the 190k exemption can only be claimed once per tax return and that if both people want to claim it, they must file single returns. I will do some checking and try to come back to you with a definitive answer.

 

Thanks for raising a useful query.

 

 

 

In my case my partner and I have overseas joint accounts for everything. As our partnership is not recognised in Thailand, we will each file tax returns. As we're over 65, we will each have THB500K which is not taxable, (after allowances and zero rated sum).

How RD view co-mingled funds, on top of fungible capital accumulated over 40 years of partnership is beyond my ken. If you get a definitive answer on that, I'd welcome knowing it.

[John207]

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

If you only remit income that is 20,000% locked up in a DTA and is considered to be non assessable, and is only taxable in the UK, US, Aus or wherever.

 

Does that person need to file a Thai tax return ?

 

No. Mainly because Thai RD is not interested in income that isn't subject to taxation, 'cause there's no profit there, and the unnecessary filing of such a tax return has its own costs in manpower and trees. Practically, because a Thai tax return has no line items in which to place income not subject to taxation, due to nature of income (e.g., per diem); that it's excluded by DTA; that it's not remitted. Most of us can cull what's assessable and what's not. Otherwise, hire  a Thai tax professional, of which, I'm sure, they'll be a lot more of soonest.

[Mike Lister]

The RD tax return appears to want taxpayers to report assessable income, the tax rules even list some types of income that are not assessable. In addition, some types of income, from some locations, for some nationalities, are also not assessable.

 

If a taxpayer is absolutely certain that some of their income is not assessable, they may not want to declare it on their Thai tax return.  Alternatively they may wish to ask the RD or employ specialist tax advisor's. It should go without saying that some taxpayers may try to suggest that some of their income is not assessable when really they don’t know for sure, or, they know that it is and say it that it isn’t, a sort of, chancing your arm and hoping you wont get found out. In that situation, the RD will not look favourably on such people and penalties are likely.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

No. Mainly because Thai RD is not interested in income that isn't subject to taxation, 'cause there's no profit there, and the unnecessary filing of such a tax return has its own costs in manpower and trees.

 

Yes, this is my understanding also, as I have stated many times.

 

Check out the new thread.

 

Immigration and RD linkup doing the rounds again.

 

The 2 main takeaways

 

1. Up to individuals to decide what is up assessable or non assessable income.

 

2. Must file and the RD will decide what is  assessable or non assessable income.

[JimGant]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If a taxpayer is absolutely certain that some of their income is not assessable, they may not want to declare it on their Thai tax return.  Alternatively they may wish to ask the RD

 

Oh, come on, Mike. It's not that hard to determine what needs to be reported to RD. It's all determinable by a detailed explanation of your DTA, like with the US Technical Explanation. And, if assessable under the DTA, what about when remitted -- how hard is that? So, with such certainty, why would I want to go to RD and ask: "Sir, here is my spreadsheet on my worldwide income, with what I assume is taxable by Thailand. Do you concur?" What do you see as areas of disagreement? I just see an RD agent with caged eyeballs.

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Oh, come on, Mike. It's not that hard to determine what needs to be reported to RD. It's all determinable by a detailed explanation of your DTA, like with the US Technical Explanation. And, if assessable under the DTA, what about when remitted -- how hard is that? So, with such certainty, why would I want to go to RD and ask: "Sir, here is my spreadsheet on my worldwide income, with what I assume is taxable by Thailand. Do you concur?" What do you see as areas of disagreement? I just see an RD agent with caged eyeballs.

I see you and a couple of the regulars are bound and determined to continue to make this as complicated and painful as possible for even the new readers who have simple tax needs. That's about as sad as it gets!

 

My statement reads, "If a taxpayer is absolutely certain that some of their income is not assessable, they may not want to declare it on their Thai tax return". That is as precise as anyone can make things as a general rule and it will mean different things for different people from different countries. For Americans it means saying that your SSc income is exempt by treaty, end of story, (if indeed it is and if indeed you are convinced it is). It doesn't need anything more than that and it certainly doesn't need a "detailed explanation of the DTA".  Now please, for the last time, give it a a rest.

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

So the big question as I see it is --

 

When will anyone, for any reason, be told by someone in a Thai position of authority:

 

You need to file a personal income tax form/return, but you didn't.

 

When every farang in country has a file that delineates, and can be possessed by RD:

 

1. Been in country for an amalgamated number of days exceeding, or equal to, 180

2. Visa held is NOT an LTR

3. Pensions direct deposited to Thailand are NOT subject to exclusivity of home country (like, RD is going to know all the language of 60 DTAs -- yeah, right).

4. Monies wired, or ATMed, to Thailand are NOT from a bank account established, and contributed to, before Jan 1, 2024.

       -- This might be an argument later of how Fifo and Lifo determine that money sent is from the earliest pile, not the latest -- if post Jan 1 2024 deposits are later made. That argument is just too weird to contemplate, although it might be necessary.

 

Anyway, just an example of the impossibility of enforcing tax compliance. Worst case: a random tax compliance audit, probably of only those with large transfers into Thailand.

 

[JimGant]

38 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I see you and a couple of the regulars are bound and determined to continue to make this as complicated and painful as possible for even the new readers who have simple tax needs. That's about as sad as it gets!

 

My making it complicated? I'm maintaining we expats should have no problem explaining our DTAs to ourselves, and then determining, after considering the remittal aspect, what taxes I need to report on a Thai tax return, if any. You're saying, and you admit you actually did this, we should take all our numbers to an RD agent and have a meeting of minds. I'm sure I'd spend the alloted time explaining my DTA to him, since it's unlikely he's ever heard of it, or at least examined it. What's the value of this?

 

Your research tidbits are appreciated, and I realize you've spent some time in the research. However, some of your recommendations are nonsensical.

Edited January 8 by JimGant

[Badrabbit]

I'm the worrying type so yes I'm very worried about this.

I went to my Tax office, they said "if you pay tax in your home country you won't pay tax here" I'm still worried.

[stat]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:50 PM, Mike Lister said:

 

I on the other hand believe there is zero percent chance that remittances will be taxed at source or by the banks ever. I further believe the chances that money imported to buy real estate in Thailand stands a negative chance of being taxed, if that's even possible.

I was nowhere stating that the banks will tax it at source with a withholding tax. I was talking about a LEGAL obligation to file a tax return and then be obliged to pay taxes.

[jerrymahoney]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Anyway, just an example of the impossibility of enforcing tax compliance. Worst case: a random tax compliance audit, probably of only those with large transfers

I agree. But seems to me at some point someone is going want to know how is it you have transferred last year e.g. 5 million baht into Thailand but have not filed any tax form. 

 

There will then also likely be a coterie of expats who will explain the DTA's and other exemptions to themselves whether they have them or not.

Edited January 8 by jerrymahoney

[stat]

18 hours ago, sirineou said:

You can not change policy retroactively  and hope that any sane person  will invest in your country. 

And since this policy starts Jan 1st and we don't know what the policy is Jan 7  any policy enounced Jan 8 would be applied retroactively  

That is Ex post facto law and is prohibited by the Thai constitution for that matter the constitution of any civilised country.  

So if the argument is that  there laws were already in the books but were not being enforced and now they will be enforced as someone else said , then it should be a simple matter to tell us what these laws are. 

 

Sorry man apparently you do not want to understand that this is possible in most countries. The interpretation of a law changed and therefore it is considered to NOT be retroactively. Happened in Germany a lot of times, of course always in tax laws benefitting the state.

Edited January 8 by stat

[The Cyclist]

50 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I see you and a couple of the regulars are bound and determined to continue to make this as complicated and painful as possible for even the new readers who have simple tax needs. That's about as sad as it gets!

 

My needs are very simple concerning money remitted to Thailand from 01 Jan 2024.

 

7 minutes ago, stat said:

I was talking about a LEGAL obligation to file a tax return

 

And @stat has just covered it.

 

I just need to know if I have a legal obligation to file a Thai Tax return if I have no assessable income

 

I fully appreciate the POV that you  do, for the reasons given many times.

 

I fully appreciate the POV that you do not, for the reasons given many times.

 

I do not really care either way, If I have to file, I will file, if I dont have to file it will save me a trip going to get a TIN and putting myself on a radar that I do not need to be on.

 

 

 

 

[gamb00ler]

9 hours ago, sirineou said:

The problem is that that is how do you do extension to stay.

 

Start early and determine the requirements ASAP.

[Mike Lister]

29 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

My needs are very simple concerning money remitted to Thailand from 01 Jan 2024.

 

 

And @stat has just covered it.

 

I just need to know if I have a legal obligation to file a Thai Tax return if I have no assessable income

 

I fully appreciate the POV that you  do, for the reasons given many times.

 

I fully appreciate the POV that you do not, for the reasons given many times.

 

I do not really care either way, If I have to file, I will file, if I dont have to file it will save me a trip going to get a TIN and putting myself on a radar that I do not need to be on.

 

 

 

 

If you can't work it out, you're gonna have to pay to get some expert tax advice.

[Mike Lister]

45 minutes ago, stat said:

I was nowhere stating that the banks will tax it at source with a withholding tax. I was talking about a LEGAL obligation to file a tax return and then be obliged to pay taxes.

Find an expert tax consultant and get some expert advice perhaps.

[Mike Lister]

56 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

My making it complicated? I'm maintaining we expats should have no problem explaining our DTAs to ourselves, and then determining, after considering the remittal aspect, what taxes I need to report on a Thai tax return, if any. You're saying, and you admit you actually did this, we should take all our numbers to an RD agent and have a meeting of minds. I'm sure I'd spend the alloted time explaining my DTA to him, since it's unlikely he's ever heard of it, or at least examined it. What's the value of this?

 

Your research tidbits are appreciated, and I realize you've spent some time in the research. However, some of your recommendations are nonsensical.

This is clearly all too difficult for you, sorry I can't be of any more help, bye.

[redwood1]

All this is nothing but trying to squeeze a few tiny bread crumbs out of retired expats on a fixed pension....

 

You could just get the tax free visa...

Or

Stay 179 days wire into Thailand 100 billion baht come back in 6 months and not pay a single baht in tax on that 100 billion baht EVER for the rest of your life....

 

 

As this lady once said.....Only the little people pay taxes....

 

 

 

 

[Burma Bill]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:22 AM, Isaan sailor said:

Thailand to tourists—please come.

Thailand to expats—please leave.

  

Cambodia to tourists - please come

Cambodia to expats - please come

[jerrymahoney]

13 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

As this lady once said.....Only the little people pay taxes....

Yes and re: Ms. Helmsley the Queen-of-Mean --

 

On August 30 (1989), Helmsley was convicted of one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States, three counts of tax evasion, three counts of filing false personal tax returns, sixteen counts of assisting in the filing of false corporate and partnership tax returns, and ten counts of mail fraud

 

Following the appeal, which resulted in a reduced sentence, she was ordered to report to prison on tax day, April 15, 1992. She was released from custody on January 26, 1994, after serving twenty-one months.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leona_Helmsley

[stat]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Find an expert tax consultant and get some expert advice perhaps.

Did it ever occur to you that some people here work in tax consultancy?

[Mike Lister]

Really strange behavior from the same four posters in this thread who seem completely unable to figure out whether they need to file a tax return or what to declare. 

[The Cyclist]

22 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you can't work it out, you're gonna have to pay to get some expert tax advice.

 

If its been worked out, feel free to post it 

 

I can find the information for people in employment

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide91.pdf

 

I can find the information for " Assessable Income "

 

https://iao.bangkok.go.th/storage/files/Personal Income Tax.pdf

 

But I cannot find anything for " Non Assessable Income / income covered by DTA's "

 

Over to you.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, stat said:

Did it ever occur to you that some people here work in tax consultancy?

It wasn't obvious from the answers in the past 200 pages.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If its been worked out, feel free to post it 

 

I can find the information for people in employment

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide91.pdf

 

I can find the information for " Assessable Income "

 

https://iao.bangkok.go.th/storage/files/Personal Income Tax.pdf

 

But I cannot find anything for " Non Assessable Income / income covered by DTA's "

 

Over to you.

Can't help you. Bye

[stat]

15 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

  

Cambodia to tourists - please come

Cambodia to expats - please come

 

Another amazing post

 

Ahem cambodia taxes your worldwide income way higher then Thailand...

 

NB: I am talking of course of the legal obligation to pay taxes not if you chose to go rogue etc.

[stat]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It wasn't obvious from the answers in the past 200 pages.

No offense but maybe you should read more and post less ...

 

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Can't help you. Bye

 

It is OK to just admit that you do not know the answer.

 

I have seen reference to DTA's being respected. This does not answer if I am legally obliged to file a ' Nil ' tax return.