ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Harsh Jones said:

Concrete structures are being pancaked worse than almost anything seen in the Ukraine war. Most of the damage in Mariupol was cosmetic in comparison. 

If it was destruction like that in Ukraine certain posters would likely be posting frantically about how it is a war crime. Strangely, if it's israel doing it, it's all right because it's only Palestinians getting killed, and they deserve it, don't they?

[thaibeachlovers]

Just seen on Al Jazeera.

Demonstrations in Sydney and Madrid in support of the Gazans.

I suspect as more VDOs of the destruction of Gaza are seen on tv the revulsion against israeli bombings will result in more protests around the world.

[Tug]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If it was destruction like that in Ukraine certain posters would likely be posting frantically about how it is a war crime. Strangely, if it's israel doing it, it's all right because it's only Palestinians getting killed, and they deserve it, don't they?

When did the Ukrainians cross their border and start slaughtering and kidnapping for ransom?now the Palestinians need to face what they created did they think the Israeli people would just start blubbering and forking over money?the whole situation is Hideous beyond belief it sucks now is when Hamas gets crushed like a bug.just what did they expect anyway?

[Hawaiian]

1 hour ago, Tug said:

When did the Ukrainians cross their border and start slaughtering and kidnapping for ransom?now the Palestinians need to face what they created did they think the Israeli people would just start blubbering and forking over money?the whole situation is Hideous beyond belief it sucks now is when Hamas gets crushed like a bug.just what did they expect anyway?

Agree.  Time to bury Hamas.  The Palestinians need to wake up to the fact that they are the sacrificial lambs of Iran and others who want to destroy Israel through organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Ben Zioner]

3 hours ago, Harsh Jones said:

Concrete structures are being pancaked worse than almost anything seen in the Ukraine war. Most of the damage in Mariupol was cosmetic in comparison. 

Excellent!

Edited October 10, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[ChipButty]

Are we seeing the Rise of the Persian Empire? 

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just seen on Al Jazeera.

Demonstrations in Sydney and Madrid in support of the Gazans.

I suspect as more VDOs of the destruction of Gaza are seen on tv the revulsion against israeli bombings will result in more protests around the world.

Latest figures are at least 900 dead in Israel from the massacres. If you prize yourself away from Al Jazeera you'll see  the revulsion against Hamas terrorists.

[herfiehandbag]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They should defeat the fighters in israel and then solve the root cause of the problem by withdrawing from the illegally occupied Palestinian land and making a real peace based on the two state solution.

If they do not, this will only happen again and again in the future.

The Palestinians are not going away- live with them in peace or keep fighting for generations.

Does israel want to be occupying Palestinian land and forcing all it's people to become soldiers for ever? Do they have no dreams of living a normal life

Israel lived within it's pre 1967 borders for 20 years. Throughout that time the Palestinian fighters/guerrillas/terrorists carried out a relentless campaign of bombings, bus bombings, ambushes, raids on kibbutzes (specialising I rather recall on shooting up kindergartens); farmers near borders were sniped at and mortared whilst working the fields. Great efforts were made to divert rivers to destroy irrigation and make the land infertile, the surrounding Arab states, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt ( with Iraq in the second rank) were complicit in staging many of these attacks, and provided safe bases, training and equipment to the attackers. Open military threats were ramped up, culminating in a maritime blockade of Israel's Red Sea port, and ultimately the 1967 6 day war.

Israel was not able to live in peace during those 20 years. It also lived with the fact that it's borders were inherently indefensible, especially in the north and centre. One decently handled Jordanian armoured brigade could have cut the country in two in 36 hours. So there was no peace, Israel was vastly outnumbered. A variety of United Nations forces were set up - they did little but sit in watchtowers and watch through binoculars - pretty supine really.

 

Israel won the 6 day war, at great cost and with spectacularly successful fighting. They then set about establishing new borders, with impeccable military logic, if disputable political logic, to ensure that the risk of being militarily overrun was removed. They occupied Sinai ( later handed back to Egypt under a peace treaty, occupied Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. They held on to these, and prevented another attempt to overrun the country in the Yom Kippur war.

 

That's why the Golan and West Bank remain under occupation. The settlements are, in my opinion wrong, but Israel is a democracy, a concept not followed anywhere else in the region, and the settlements have ( some, not total) political support.

 

Fast forward to now, Gaza run by a fundamentalist islamic group; and we have just seen what they can and will do. The Palestinian Authority, given some autonomy, controlled by an eye wateringly corrupt government led by an elderly politician in the 17th year of his 4 year elected term; undoubtedly bound to fall into the grip of a theocratic terror regime in the near future if Israel relinquishes control. Iran funding, equipping, training terrorists and taking a leading role in planning the attacks. Iran, and the terrorist groups it controls, Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad ( a particularly vicious bunch they are) remain committed publicly to the destruction of Israel, irrespective of the 1967 borders, and alarmingly, the genocide of it's Jewish population.

 

My conclusion, there can be no political peace, whilst there is no will for it. Arguably there may be a desire for it within Israel, but absolutely not amongst those leading, and likely to continue leading the Palestinians. The only real short term solution is for one side to inflict a crushing military defeat on the other. Israel lives with the threat of genocide, it's reaction to that is inevitably overshadowed by the Holocaust. Israel looks as if it is preparing to inflict such a crushing defeat on Hamas. They know (and for the most part don't relish), that they will have to do so every decade or so for the foreseeable future.

 

Longer term, well the best hope is that the theocratic terrorist sponsoring regime in Iran changes.

 

it is tragic.

 

Incidentally, I think the Israeli Defence Minister referred to Hamas rather than Gaza as animals. He was, in the clip I found, speaking in Hebrew so there may have been some room for error in translation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Harsh Jones said:

Why did they choose Israel. They were offered a part of Russia at one point to make a homeland. That would have been better than this. 

Because it is ours.

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just seen on Al Jazeera.

Demonstrations in Sydney and Madrid in support of the Gazans.

I suspect as more VDOs of the destruction of Gaza are seen on tv the revulsion against israeli bombings will result in more protests around the world.

No comment

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Hamas has launched 1000s of rockets at Israel, pointlessly.

 

What if the money used for those rockets had been used instead to better the lives of Gazans?

Or if even half of it would have been invested in bomb shelters for the Gazans....

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Paul Catton said:

Correct, no dispute from me. Abhorrent atrocities since Biblical times have been committed by all who seem to settle in and around the region.

However in context to the OP the focus is around "Israel at War"  

The comment I responded to tied the beginning of hostilities to Israel's inception as an independent state. I was pointing out that it started well before that. It was not an irrelevant reference to biblical times.

[spidermike007]

The really dirty little secret here is that the Palestinians seem to be despised throughout the Arab world. How many Arab countries have offered them sanctuary or territory? Yet, they always use the attacks against them as a rallying cry. 

[FruitPudding]

35 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

No comment

Well done, France (and others)

 

I am almost surprised.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

You are right to condemn the abhorrent actions of Hamas.

You are wrong to excuse the abhorrent actions of the Israeli government.

 

The moral and ethical deficiencies of both sides are precisely equal - one must be either dishonest or ignorant to assert otherwise.

My post was about public sentiments and reactions on both sides. You either responded to a different post, or trying yet again to deflect.

 

Twist it as you like, no. Intentionally killing civilians at their home, is not the same as citizens getting killed when military targets placed near them are attacked. One is plain murder, the other a regretful but almost unavoidable part of modern warfare.

[FruitPudding]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm on the side of Palestinians that are NOT in Hamas 

They were dancing in the streets a few days ago celebrating the terror and death of innocent civilians in their own homes in Israel.

 

 

[spidermike007]

Very few seem willing to discuss cause and effect, but Israel never should have let the extremists visit the mosque. And Israeli policy toward the Palestinians is not helpful, on any level. A solution must be found. Not condoning Hamas. But this did not happen in a vacuum. 

 

The Israeli government formed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last December is the most right wing in Israeli history. This government has made no secret of its desire to annex the West Bank and has permitted significant expansion of Jewish settlements in the territory, which are illegal under 

international law.

That has led to conflict between settlers and young West Bank Palestinians, who in the past year have formed a loose grouping known as the “Lions’ Den”.

This grouping, comprising

independent militants with apparently no central control, has scant regard for the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank and is led by the octogenarian Mahmoud Abbas. The Palestinian Authority has little real administrative, security or moral authority in the territory.

Edited October 10, 2023 by spidermike007

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

My post was about public sentiments and reactions on both sides. You either responded to a different post, or trying yet again to deflect.

 

Twist it as you like, no. Intentionally killing civilians at their home, is not the same as citizens getting killed when military targets placed near them are attacked. One is plain murder, the other a regretful but almost unavoidable part of modern warfare.

And in this conflict, civilians were deliberately and indiscriminately targeted in the certain knowledge that  those terrorist murders would result in a military response that in turn would result in deaths amongst the host population within which the terrorists are ‘shielding’ themselves.

 

Hamas knew that their terrorist attack would result in the deaths of Palestinians.

 

They either didn’t care, didn’t do the math or they did do the math and regard the death of Palestinians in the certain Israeli response to be acceptable, perhaps in some twisted propaganda sense desirable.

 

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm on the side of Palestinians that are NOT in Hamas or any other armed group that are suffering because israel does not discriminate between fighters and innocent civilians with their bombs on residential areas.

Cutting off water to the entirety of Gaza affects everyone, whether Hamas or not.

You have not offered a single credible way of addressing the current situation, in the here and now. All you have is waffle, touting one sided narrative and deflections.

[ChipButty]

10 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

The really dirty little secret here is that the Palestinians seem to be despised throughout the Arab world. How many Arab countries have offered them sanctuary or territory? Yet, they always use the attacks against them as a rallying cry. 

Good point you make there, I have worked in a few Arab countries in construction and they get treated not very good they only get the labouring jobs work for peanuts, other Arabs don't think much of them, bye the way they are lazy, 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So how many of the 2 million+ innocent Gazans have to die to make up for the 250+ kids that were dancing? Plenty of dead children already, so how many Gaza children will have to die to pay the debt?

 

Revenge killing will only create more recruits for Hamas, and let's not forget that the Palestinians on the West Bank are also watching, and waiting to take revenge of their own.

 

Seems like you're alright with Hamas's 'revenge killing' and got no time to address its consequences.

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'd be interested to know what "heavy weapons" that poster thinks the Palestinians posses. If they have them, why have they not used them?

Of course he gave no links to prove his erroneous claim.

About a thousand Israelis were killed in a single day. No 'heavy weapons' (unless rocket launchers are counted as such) needed. Do you have an actual point?

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They should defeat the fighters in israel and then solve the root cause of the problem by withdrawing from the illegally occupied Palestinian land and making a real peace based on the two state solution.

If they do not, this will only happen again and again in the future.

The Palestinians are not going away- live with them in peace or keep fighting for generations.

Does israel want to be occupying Palestinian land and forcing all it's people to become soldiers for ever? Do they have no dreams of living a normal life?

Israel already withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Nothing changed much. You're suggesting this be tried on a wider level. This while ignoring Hamas's own words, agenda and actions - to the effect that they are not planning to give up the river-to-the-sea notion.

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I thought israel claimed to be a civilised country. Do civilised people think it's OK to kill children because the enemy does?

Are you calling the Palestinians 'uncivilized'?

[Ben Zioner]

25 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

Well done, France (and others)

 

I am almost surprised.

Why? We all have suffered together from arab/islamic savagery.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Latest figures are at least 900 dead in Israel from the massacres. If you prize yourself away from Al Jazeera you'll see  the revulsion against Hamas terrorists.

I hope you don't watch CNN, which is biased towards Israel, obviously. 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Very few seem willing to discuss cause and effect, but Israel never should have let the extremists visit the mosque. And Israeli policy toward the Palestinians is not helpful, on any level. A solution must be found. Not condoning Hamas. But this did not happen in a vacuum. 

 

The Israeli government formed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last December is the most right wing in Israeli history. This government has made no secret of its desire to annex the West Bank and has permitted significant expansion of Jewish settlements in the territory, which are illegal under 

international law.

That has led to conflict between settlers and young West Bank Palestinians, who in the past year have formed a loose grouping known as the “Lions’ Den”.

This grouping, comprising

independent militants with apparently no central control, has scant regard for the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank and is led by the octogenarian Mahmoud Abbas. The Palestinian Authority has little real administrative, security or moral authority in the territory.

Very few on here are able to discuss such things without taking hyper partisan positions, or having command of facts. If you want to pin the current attack on what you outlined - you'd have to account for this attack obviously being a long time (months and longer) in the planning. I'm not saying it's detached of more recent events, just that it's doubtful one specific cause is to blame. For example, if Iranian involvement was a indeed a thing, then the timeline would could be tied to their own vendetta vs. Israel. This could certainly have been a merging of interests.

Another example? Hamas often cites Al Aqsa as central to their reactions. This is mostly to steer supporters rather having concrete grounds.

[herfiehandbag]

6 hours ago, Harsh Jones said:

Why did they choose Israel. They were offered a part of Russia at one point to make a homeland. That would have been better than this. 

Umh, can you imagine what Putin would be doing right now if the state of Israel had been created on Russian land?

 

History is in many ways a curse in these situations, but, the land of Israel was for many centuries the homeland of the Jews.

 

The Temple Mount in Jerusalem was the site of the Temple, the centre of Judaism, long long (over a thousand years) before it was claimed as the 3rd most sacred sight for Islam, in fact it also had (has) great significance for Christians - Jerusalem is the Christian holy city as well.

 

As I said, history is a curse, but if it is to be claimed as part of the justification for one side, then it must be allowed as a claim for the other. In blunt terms, the Jews were there first.

[Ben Zioner]

18 hours ago, placeholder said:

But the person I was replying to made it a theological issue about the very nature of Islam.

Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve "

 

Surah 2:191: "And kill them wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers ."

 

Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush."

[herfiehandbag]

I see (BBC website) that facial recognition software has identified one of the hostage takers as a member of the Gaza Police.

 

It is inescapably a fact that the police, along with much of Gaza's civil infrastructure, is funded by the European Union.