Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV !

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's called cherry-picking data to suit the argument.

It's called ... 'I wouldn't own a MT' and a better comparison AT & AT versions.

14 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Why do you quote the more expensive automatic model?

A Celerio manual is a great little 4 door, I'm seeing them everywhere, not surprising at 320kbht..

If making the comparison, then get at least close to the same.  Neta V is AT only, hence the comparison, though reality, the Celerio is outclassed on the performance level.  And surely a fine, cheap car for knocking around town.  Especially if budget conscious, though long haul, will eventually cost much more, than that extra 143k to buy in.

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[Bandersnatch]

25 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

So convince me EV owners are not a new religion.

The problem here should be obvious in this discussion.
 

The OP doesn’t own an EV and clearly from the amount of fact checking I had to do on his post, knows very little about them. Yet he feels the need to spread the gospel of “Anti-EV”

I frankly think it’s pretty sad 

 

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

It was an EV.  I was quite impressed by the acceleration.

Maybe the ZS or HS PHEV.

 

The dedicated BEV platformed MG4 doesn’t have any noticeable roll with a sports suspension and 50/50 weight distribution.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Bandersnatch said:

The problem here should be obvious in this discussion.
 

The OP doesn’t own an EV and clearly from the amount of fact checking I had to do on his post, knows very little about them. Yet he feels the need to spread the gospel of “Anti-EV”

I frankly think it’s pretty sad 

 

I think there is more than meets the eye on this post.

[In the jungle]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

It's called ... 'I wouldn't own a MT' and a better comparison AT & AT versions.

If making the comparison, then get at least close to the same.  Neta V is AT only, hence the comparison, though reality, the Celerio is outclassed on the performance level.  And surely a fine, cheap car for knocking around town.  Especially if budget conscious, though long haul, will eventually cost much more, than that extra 143k to buy in.

The Celerio in manual form is not outclassed on performance.  0-100 kph is about the same as the Neta.  Top speed is 40 kph higher and it's 300 kg lighter.

[In the jungle]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Maybe the ZS or HS PHEV.

 

The dedicated BEV platformed MG4 doesn’t have any noticeable roll with a sports suspension and 50/50 weight distribution.

I think it was one of those two.  I don't know the MG range well enough to know the difference between them.  I infer from your post that they are based on what was originally an ICE chassis.

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Diverting again, and comparing apples and oranges. An MG ZS is a much bigger and heavier vehicle, they were discounted on price for a reason.

To repeat - what reputation does a Neta V have?

Going to have to ask a Neta V owner.   I see a lot, and they do look nice, and owners quite happy with them.  The ones I've talked with.  Though I'm not a fan of new release cars, and why buying the ZS wasn't much of a risk, as more than a few years to work out the bugs.

 

No diverting, the ZS compared, costing <100k more, that was the ICE version (not discounted, but on nice sale) I owned before the ZS EV.  Owning both, so again, can speak from personal experience.  Something most here seem to avoid.

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[In the jungle]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Maybe the ZS or HS PHEV.

 

The dedicated BEV platformed MG4 doesn’t have any noticeable roll with a sports suspension and 50/50 weight distribution.

The MG4 is very impressive at the Thai price.

 

Tesla model 3 is too but Thai price is daft.

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Neta now have a showroom in Chiang Rai town.

 

I popped in with my sister and brother-in-law last week, and we were all very impressed with the car.

Your post means absolutely nothing in terms of reputation.

IIRC the Honda Accord acquired the cachet of the most reliable vehicle in America, with the best longevity. That is what I mean by reputation. Mazda is currently one of the leaders in that respect.

The Chevy Corvair probably looked great in the showroom too.

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

I think it was one of those two.  I don't know the MG range well enough to know the difference between them.  I infer from your post that they are based on what was originally an ICE chassis.

Yes, the ZS started out as an ICE car the MG EP+ is based on the MG5 chassis, in the UK only the EV version available and they call it the MG5.

 

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Your post means absolutely nothing in terms of reputation.

IIRC the Honda Accord acquired the cachet of the most reliable vehicle in America, with the best longevity. That is what I mean by reputation. Mazda is currently one of the leaders in that respect.

The Chevy Corvair probably looked great in the showroom too.

In my book, all new cars start out with a perfect reputation, and it either stays that way, or it goes downhill.

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities."

Perhaps they should blame themselves for buying a vehicle with obvious problems regarding charging.

55555555555555555

[thaibeachlovers]

24 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

The problem here should be obvious in this discussion.
 

The OP doesn’t own an EV and clearly from the amount of fact checking I had to do on his post, knows very little about them. Yet he feels the need to spread the gospel of “Anti-EV”

I frankly think it’s pretty sad 

 

 I think it's great.

Too many buying something with blatantly obvious problems, and then complaining about those obvious problems.

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 I think it's great.

Too many buying something with blatantly obvious problems, and then complaining about those obvious problems.

How very strange, I’ve never heard any EV owner in Thailand complaining about anything with their cars.

[BritManToo]

41 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If making the comparison, then get at least close to the same.  Neta V is AT only, hence the comparison, though reality, the Celerio is outclassed on the performance level.  And surely a fine, cheap car for knocking around town.  Especially if budget conscious, though long haul, will eventually cost much more, than that extra 143k to buy in.

Maybe you should choose a manual change EV to compare.

[retarius]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Yet to hear 1 argument against owning an EV, that makes sense, that owners of don't agree with already.

 

Common sense reason not to own EV (in TH):

... can't charge at home

... can't afford a new car right now

... want a pick up truck

... on the road all the time, and waiting to charge, will cost you valuable money making time

... simply too impatient to charge when on the road, (not working) but don't mind waiting weekly to top up ICEV at petrol station

 

I can't think of any other reasons, and most have been debunked already.

Because you don't listen to anyone.

[retarius]

22 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a widespread rush to EV may be problematic - Thailand (and all Nations), need to find the right role for them.

 

The use of EV in big Cities obviously makes some sense, reducing pollution, in say BKK and Chiang Mai and although EV cause extra pollution in the area the vehicle is manufactured in, it still makes some sense . . . . . though, how do persons living in an apartment block or in a house with no driveway/carport/garage, manage to get the charge supply to the vehicle. Further, the national capacity for electricity generation for vast numbers of EV will be an issue - a street with every house having EV's will need an uplift in the capacity of the local electricity infrastructure.

It's worth noting that. the rush to build massive numbers of EV is questionable because according to very detailed research by Volvo, the environmental tag for EV manufacture is so much higher that it is not repaid until the vehicle has done an extra 100,000 km than an ICE vehicle.

Further problems of excess weight overloading multi story parks, (a collapse in New York), expensive battery replacement and lower second hand values, should not be ignored by purchasers. Also I read recently that some Insurer's were increasing premiums and even refusing cover for EV's because of the high repair costs, including batteries. Noting that EV are at a problem at repair yards, because, if the battery pack has been 'compromised' at all, the risk of a battery fire is much higher - recommendations to store damaged EV very widely spaced makes repair costs very high. it's also worth bearing in mind that a battery pack might be damaged by hitting a hump in the road, mounting a kerb and so on. MMMmmm

 

Regarding the mooted hazard of spontaneous combustion, it does seem that EV are much less likely to catch fire than ICE, BUT, the problem is that an EV fire is wildly intense and there are many cases of EV catching fire, on charge, off charge, whenever. yes that's WILDLY intense. I saw the suggestion that multi-story car parks should be installed with sprinklers. That's a crazy sop to the problem - sprinklers won't impact on the ferocity of an EV fire. Even fully equipped fire services can't put them out - it's a wait for burnout.

 

One can read of cases where the EV fire results in the house burning down too. Apparently a complete Tesla dealership in France was fire wiped ! And a fire in a car park in Glasgow and of course, the terrible fire at Luton Airport - of course the PR machines will play down the EV factor but I saw a plausible theory that the diesel Range Rover identified as catching fire first, was probably a hybrid version. Whatever started it, reports that as the fire spread, EV's were bursting into flames creating a domino effect. At Luton, it's thought that 1200 vehicles were destroyed - what's that gonna do for premiums . . . ?

 

However, IF you discount all the above, then here's another problem - maybe you'll be OK if you can charge at home but if you want to do long journeys, allow ages of extra time for recharging AND waiting for access to recharging. Noting there's some long journeys in Thailand - (say Hua Hin to Chaing Mai) MMmmm. As the proportion of EV increases this problem will get much worse and I notice these comments from the UK recently - "Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points. Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand. It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities."

 

EV's have some advantages and some do look good - but I think you can guess that I won't be buying one. Not in this lifetime ! ATB

What's it like watching football by yourself. Being alone on the stands. Not having to queue for beer or a hot dog? Must be great unless some away fans come and ruin it for you.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, retarius said:

Because you don't listen to anyone.

I'm all ears, but your so called problems, don't exist here in TH:

until they sort the fire problem

... less than ICEV, and none w/LPFs

the range problem

... 3-4 hrs on TH's roads is enough for me

the price problem

... cost same as ICEV of like quality in TH

 

You got anything else ?

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Maybe you should choose a manual change EV to compare.

Don't think they make them, in the sense of 'changing' gears.  My scooter has a 1-2-3 switch, for more speed, though takes no time to push or notice any change in motion.  Think it just allows more juice to the motors.

 

Don't think any cars in the 549k baht range and up are that low tech to have.

 

Celerio is targeted to the low budget buyer, neither looking for performance or comfort.  Great per kms/L, and fine for those wanting.

 

Me ... No thanks, maybe when I was 20 yrs old and budget challenged.  Though even my 2nd hand cars back then were much better.

 

I try to move forward, not backwards in life, in all things.  I'd put a side cart on my scooter before owning a Celerio ???? or  Yaris & Mazda 2 for that matter, and simply hire/rent something when going O&A ????

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Yes, the ZS started out as an ICE car the MG EP+ is based on the MG5 chassis, in the UK only the EV version available and they call it the MG5.

 

In my book, all new cars start out with a perfect reputation, and it either stays that way, or it goes downhill.

In my book, I buy cars, either new or used, that have an established reputation. IMO it's pretty dumb to be a lab rat.

[JBChiangRai]

25 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

In my book, I buy cars, either new or used, that have an established reputation. IMO it's pretty dumb to be a lab rat.

If we were all like that, no new cars would ever be made.
 

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Because you don't listen to anyone.

Just think of the advantages of the silent EV, you could hear your wife, talk to you all the time, very easily at any speed, on second thoughts maybe EV’s are not such a good idea after all

 

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

In my book, I buy cars, either new or used, that have an established reputation. IMO it's pretty dumb to be a lab rat.

SAIC has been making autos for decades.  MGs since 2011, I think.  EVs since 2017-2019/mass production, I think.  That's good enough for me, especially when nobody else is offering much else, of what I want.  Has worked out good for me ... YMMV

 

From Wiki ... SAIC Motors

"It is currently a Fortune Global 100 company, ranked 60 on the list.[when?] Including SGMW, it is also the third largest plug-in electric vehicle (BEV and PHEV) company and second largest BEV company in the world, with 10.5% and 13% global market share respectively in 2021, selling under brand names such as Wuling, Baojun, Maxus, MG, Roewe and Rising."

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

If we were all like that, no new cars would ever be made.
 

 

 

Of course they would, there are always people who have to have the brightest new toy.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, In the jungle said:

The Celerio in manual form is not outclassed on performance.  0-100 kph is about the same as the Neta.  Top speed is 40 kph higher and it's 300 kg lighter.

To be fair, I doubt I would want to be driving a Celerio at top speed.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Of course they would, there are always people who have to have the brightest new toy.

So true, though not a big fan of that thinking.   Though SAIC & MG been putting out autos long enough, EVs, not till 2019, w/ZS, being 1st production EV.  Gave that a pass, though not even considering, TBH, as not paying 1.2M for any 4 wheels.  Just not car kind of guy.

 

2022 version came with a couple nice upgrades.  Now having solar & govt incentives, so a no brainer at that time.  240k baht is damn good motivating incentive.

 

Took a small hit selling the only 2 yr old ICE version, as I usually keep things for 125-150k kms.

 

TBH, 949k is still a silly price for 4 wheels, in my car world, but ROI (hopefully) & operating cost, along with performance was well worth it.

 

Seriously couldn't see myself going back to an ICEV.

[RanongCat]

I do not own one and probably never will simply because my current ICE vehicle performs well that despite age will outlast my safe driving days.

That said if I were younger and in the market I think I would  lean towards electric simply because of performance. Range in terms of urban travel is really of no consequence and for that simple reason alone has practical appeal.

The touted  bogeyman negatives over electrical supply generated by petrochem with regard  to  carbon emissions  can be shown to favour energy efficiency even when taking into account losses in transmission vs ice efficiency. Add to that the reduction in urban background noise pollution, environmental distribution of exhaust toxins . Even deadhead boy racers with the inevitable acquisition of high performance electric m/bikescould attempt ritual suicide in relative silence  marked only by the Ambulance siren announcement of a reduction in that redundant sector of society.

Unfortunately there  does seem to be a discrepancy in recognition of the limited infrastructure that is becoming apparent not only in Thailand.

A major issue  for  many SEA countries is that beneficial infrastructure is compromised by a lack of cohesive development planning. Thus it is often easy to witness commercial/industrial enterprises  operating  next door to food prep or restaurants sometimes situated  on the  footpath directly  outside.

Shock horror to those from a society/culture where such is prohibited yet quietly fascinated by such lack of inhibition for entrepreneurs !

Such is the situation with "electrification" of transports  in Thailand  now.

Even to the degree of nasty  irritating cheap little unlicenced electric buggies and two wheelers inviting  road rage  as Granny or a  firkin  5 year old cruises down the  road at 15 kph to the  7/11 to get 20 bht more 1 /2 call for Granma scamming some farang on tiktok  etc !

More genuinely seriously is the  advent of Thailand produced all electric vehicles.  A legitimate industry  providing  employment and an associated need for cognizant skills at  several levels.

That this industry is  rising in development and impact has/is generated already partisan opinion is quite revealing about  "modern" society. Especially when EV negativity is quietly but  primarily funded by petrochem industries.

What need for Petrol heads  to complain?  Crude oil  is far from depletion so your  ridiculous  dragster  can continue to  compete  with a factory  std Tesla  for  quite a while  yet !

 

 

[In the jungle]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

To be fair, I doubt I would want to be driving a Celerio at top speed.

I haven't tried.  I have probably done around 120kph max indicated in the Celerio.  I wouldn't want to drive any car at 160kph on Thai roads.

 

One of the problems with the Neta is that it only does 120kph max.  That is just not enough margin of safety for overtaking.

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

If we were all like that, no new cars would ever be made.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Of course they would, there are always people who have to have the brightest new toy.

So who you are saying, I am wrong, whilst at the same time agreeing with me, is this the normal logic from a chemist?

 

I am confused.

[In the jungle]

20 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

I do not own one and probably never will simply because my current ICE vehicle performs well that despite age will outlast my safe driving days.

That said if I were younger and in the market I think I would  lean towards electric simply because of performance. Range in terms of urban travel is really of no consequence and for that simple reason alone has practical appeal.

The touted  bogeyman negatives over electrical supply generated by petrochem with regard  to  carbon emissions  can be shown to favour energy efficiency even when taking into account losses in transmission vs ice efficiency. Add to that the reduction in urban background noise pollution, environmental distribution of exhaust toxins . Even deadhead boy racers with the inevitable acquisition of high performance electric m/bikescould attempt ritual suicide in relative silence  marked only by the Ambulance siren announcement of a reduction in that redundant sector of society.

Unfortunately there  does seem to be a discrepancy in recognition of the limited infrastructure that is becoming apparent not only in Thailand.

A major issue  for  many SEA countries is that beneficial infrastructure is compromised by a lack of cohesive development planning. Thus it is often easy to witness commercial/industrial enterprises  operating  next door to food prep or restaurants sometimes situated  on the  footpath directly  outside.

Shock horror to those from a society/culture where such is prohibited yet quietly fascinated by such lack of inhibition for entrepreneurs !

Such is the situation with "electrification" of transports  in Thailand  now.

Even to the degree of nasty  irritating cheap little unlicenced electric buggies and two wheelers inviting  road rage  as Granny or a  firkin  5 year old cruises down the  road at 15 kph to the  7/11 to get 20 bht more 1 /2 call for Granma scamming some farang on tiktok  etc !

More genuinely seriously is the  advent of Thailand produced all electric vehicles.  A legitimate industry  providing  employment and an associated need for cognizant skills at  several levels.

That this industry is  rising in development and impact has/is generated already partisan opinion is quite revealing about  "modern" society. Especially when EV negativity is quietly but  primarily funded by petrochem industries.

What need for Petrol heads  to complain?  Crude oil  is far from depletion so your  ridiculous  dragster  can continue to  compete  with a factory  std Tesla  for  quite a while  yet !

 

 

Most EVs are a bit of a one trick pony in terms of performance.  Good at traffic light drag racing but compromised in other respects by weight.

 

They are not going to win Le Mans anytime soon.

 

 

 

[In the jungle]

"The touted  bogeyman negatives over electrical supply generated by petrochem with regard  to  carbon emissions  can be shown to favour energy efficiency even when taking into account losses in transmission vs ice efficiency. Add to that the reduction in urban background noise pollution, environmental distribution of exhaust toxins"

 

The problem with that point is that to a significant extent EVs constitute the rich in urban areas exporting their pollution to the poor who live near the power stations.

[JBChiangRai]

30 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

Most EVs are a bit of a one trick pony in terms of performance.  Good at traffic light drag racing but compromised in other respects by weight.

 

They are not going to win Le Mans anytime soon.

 

 

 

I can see why you’ll think that, but I suggest you have a look at the fastest cars around the Nurburgring, they are generally stunningly fast.