Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You are spouting rubbish.

 

I absolutely condemn what Hamas has done, I have made it very clear here. 
 

My position is targeting the innocent civilians is wrong and looks more like revenge than a plan balanced with proper objectives and calculated acceptable collateral damage.

 

Nothing I have said condones Hamas, nothing I have said condones Israel’s response.  What’s shameful is you trying to imply I somehow support what Hamas has done in Israel.  It’s clear I don’t.

 

It’s also clear that nothing I say is going to change your view that thousands of innocent Palestinians being massacred is AOK, and nothing you can say will make me believe this massacre is justified.

 

I am going to leave it at that.

 

 

You absolutely condemn what hamas has done, but you do not seem to condemn them or what they continue to do. 

 

You also condemn Israel from trying to stop hamas from doing what they are doing. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

I have no objection to the removal of terrorist control of a population that has been deprived of the will to resist persistent intimidation from all sides.

I do have objection to the mass murder of same population excused by argument of no alternative.

There is this insidious false projection of polarized ideology which not just implies that any objection to IDF tactics  which criminally contravene International conventions is "proof" of  support for Hamas.

That mindset may assist the more base ideology of  Islamaphobes but is a negative to the humanitarian perspectives same would expect if applied to self  identity.

 

It is exactly the insidious false projection of polarized ideology which not just implies that any objection to hamas tactics  which criminally contravene International conventions is "proof" of  support for Israel.

That mindset may assist the more base ideology of  antisemites but is a negative to the humanitarian perspectives same would expect if applied to self  identity that is causing such mayhem in the region, 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

You are entirely missing the point.  What Hamas has done justifies Israel attacking Hamas. Nothing they have done or could do justifies attacking innocent civilians and killing them in their thousands in the hope of wiping out Hamas.

 

Let me give an analogy.  The IRA attack the British, The British then go in and massacre thousands of innocent civilians in the hope of eradicating the IRA, this would be equally wrong. Nothing the IRA could do would justify that kind of a massacre.

 

In the law we judge guilty or not guilt on actions only.  Provocation may affect sentencing but it does not make an illegal act into a legal one.

 

Gazan civilians are innocent, nothing Hamas has done justifies massacring them in their thousands.

 

Civilians get killed on wars. Under some conditions, this is not even a war crime.

 

Let me give you a bit of reality. Hamas instigated this knowing the consequences. There was not attempt to protect the civilian population. There were even calls for them to remain in place and die for the cause, not to mention attempts to stop them from evacuating. All you and others go on about is Israel Bad. Not a whole lot of angst and rage over the decisions of leadership to sacrifice its own people.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Actually I do have a solution, I don’t volunteer it because it deflects from the wrong being done by Israel which is what we are discussing, open another thread on alternative solutions and I will be happy to comment.

 

Any solution should leave the Palestinian children without hatred for Israel.  This generational hate has to end, and not by genocide.

 

There are numerous topic discussing related issues, no need to start a new thread. Pick one, any one.

There is no genocide. Genocide is something on a whole different level. Cut the hyperbole.

[RanongCat]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Civilians get killed on wars. Under some conditions, this is not even a war crime.

 

Let me give you a bit of reality. Hamas instigated this knowing the consequences. There was not attempt to protect the civilian population. There were even calls for them to remain in place and die for the cause, not to mention attempts to stop them from evacuating. All you and others go on about is Israel Bad. Not a whole lot of angst and rage over the decisions of leadership to sacrifice its own people.

 

 

So now  you attribute the intimidation of Hamas as justification for  bombing  civilians  caught  between directives which in any event result in death ? If Hell is real you are  destined !

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

You keep mentioning Hamas and what they have done.

 

Exactly, how does that make the citizens of Gaza complicit in that crime? only if they were complicit would Israel be justified in killing them in their thousands.

 

What Hamas has done is irrelevant in the justification for attacking innocent Gazan civilians.

 

It is for the same reason that the British did not kill the Irish in their thousands, because they were not complicit in what the IRA did.

 

It is irrelevant only in your mind. Reality works in different ways.

Civilians are not 100% legally protected from harm in war situations. Deal with it.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Morch

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

No doubt a one state solution. 

 

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Absolutely not.

 

Small mercies, etc.

[bobbin]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s like saying if Germany buys gas from Russia they will stop bombing Ukraine.

 

What a terrorist organisation is doing cannot be combatted by massacring thousands of innocents.

 

Hamas giving up their hostages is outside the ability of the innocent people being massacred.  It’s wrong for Israel to use this as a lever.

JBCR.. you and I have crossed swords on the Cannabis in Thailand issue but on this much more important issue I stand with you. Funnily enough, some of your allies in the Cannabis discussion oppose you in this topic.

 

Anybody trying to avoid the imposition of collective punishment will have my support. This is not an endorsement of the truly evil actions by some of the Hamas gunmen. I believe most of those beasts are dead already. One pundit noted that there seemed to be 2 groups in the Hamas attack. The first group, that did most of the evil acts carried no water, food or medical supplies. The second, "snatch" group had these supplies. The first group were literally suicidal and for most their wish was granted.

[RanongCat]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

It is irrelevant only in your mind. Reality works in different ways.

Civilians are not 100% legally protected from harm in war situations. Deal with it.

Perhaps incidentally related  but why then so much lack of  revulsion to Ukrainian attacks on Russian villages  which  have  zero military content let alone involvement?

The  world  does watch and  note  such.

[Thorgal]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are numerous topic discussing related issues, no need to start a new thread. Pick one, any one.

There is no genocide. Genocide is something on a whole different level. Cut the hyperbole.

 

It is genocide.

 

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To constitute genocide%2C there must,to simply disperse a group.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

You cannot say Hamas/Palestine, the former is a terrorist group and the latter is a country/innocent people.

 

You must never join the two together, it’s like saying the IRA/Irish.

 

You are shooting for a strong differentiation between Hamas and the Palestinian people.

 

Hamas is a hybrid organization - it's a terrorist outfit, a political party and a provider of social services. On various opinion polls Hamas gets a hefty chunk of voter support - not a majority, but usually doing better than the competition. So the disconnect you're after (for obvious reasons) is not there.

 

It doesn't make every Palestinian into a Hamas member/supporter, not even all Gazans. But the attempt to minimize Hamas role in Palestinian society and politics is simply unacceptable.

 

Let me add this - following the initial Hamas attack there were mobs of Gazans pouring through to Israel, looting and murdering. Thousands. At the time hostages were brought into Gaza crowds followed vehicles carrying them cheering (and worse). There were celebrations all over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

The difference is intent and scale.

 

As per intent, the IDF does not target civilians. If it was the death toll would have been way higher.

As per scale - not to be callous, but this is small potatoes compared to other conflicts in the region and elsewhere.

[Bkk Brian]

42 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You are spouting rubbish.

 

I absolutely condemn what Hamas has done, I have made it very clear here. 
 

My position is targeting the innocent civilians is wrong and looks more like revenge than a plan balanced with proper objectives and calculated acceptable collateral damage.

 

Nothing I have said condones Hamas, nothing I have said condones Israel’s response.  What’s shameful is you trying to imply I somehow support what Hamas has done in Israel.  It’s clear I don’t.

 

It’s also clear that nothing I say is going to change your view that thousands of innocent Palestinians being massacred is AOK, and nothing you can say will make me believe this massacre is justified.

 

I am going to leave it at that.

 

 

 

I am going to leave it at that.

 

I suggest you do, claiming Israel has no justification to ask for its hostages back is shameful. There's no turning back now. You're outed

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

And I am sure lots of Palestinians would support that too.

 

And I'm sure you could support this assertion with something.

Or not.

[Thorgal]

54 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Again, you are deflecting. hamas, or the Palestinian branch of the Muslim brotherhood, was elected by a majority of Palestinians. The US (which I assume you love) does not call it a terrorist organization. 

 

Yes, there are thousands out of millions of Palestinian that do not support hamas, but a large percentage of them do. 

 

Let the people that do not support hamas follow Israel's instruction and flee the areas being bombed. 

 

Many of these non-Hamas Palestinians from Gaza don't want to leave Gaza for Nakbah 2.0.

 

They still remember what happened on Nakbah 1.0. and 1967 with the forced evictions and executions

[Bkk Brian]

49 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Whoa !  What is the  everlasting cry  for "Jewish" justice and the objection to genocidal motive and  from where and what  did it originate in  "modern" times?

 

What?

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Except that the  last election in Gaza was in 2006 and  any valid  attempts to  try again have been thwarted by "unrest". The simplistic  idea that Hamas rules by popularity and not by intimidation is ignored for the convenience of enduring "blame" on impoverished Gaza Palestinians.

 

Hamas routinely gets solid voter support on polls. One of the reasons no elections were held since is that the PA is afraid of losing again.

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

So now  you attribute the intimidation of Hamas as justification for  bombing  civilians  caught  between directives which in any event result in death ? If Hell is real you are  destined !

 

Civilians die in wars. Is that news to you?

[RanongCat]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Civilians die in wars. Is that news to you?

Not at  all . But that if it is as a result of disregard for "collateral damage" in terms of the lives of  women and children to suit a military objective then I  would  have to resign  myself to acknowledging that it is the result of typical US  military tactics as advised/prescribed to IDF strategy.

 

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and inflammatory posts contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, RanongCat said:

Not at  all . But that if it is as a result of disregard for "collateral damage" in terms of the lives of  women and children to suit a military objective then I  would  have to resign  myself to acknowledging that it is the result of typical US  military tactics as advised/prescribed to IDF strategy.

 

 

The Russians do not kill civilians, then? Just an American/Israeli thing? Syrians don't kill civilians, perhaps? Hamas doesn't?

[RanongCat]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The Russians do not kill civilians, then? Just an American/Israeli thing? Syrians don't kill civilians, perhaps? Hamas doesn't?

Where and  when have I stated that civilian deaths overall do not  occur in any conflict? You may wish to deflect from  the issue of "disregard" of strategicably avoidable civilian casualties as a historical factor in US military strategy. As staunch "allies " of Israel and provider of 3 billion $US annual funds I am sure  there is a significant degree of  "advice" provided as a marker to such  funds.

Maybe before your  breastfed years but do you know how many bombs to almost no effect  were rained down on Laos killing 2 million non combatant peasants and leaving a legacy of unexploded ordinance that annually still kills people  ? And even in those times the cost?

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Where and  when have I stated that civilian deaths overall do not  occur in any conflict? You may wish to deflect from  the issue of "disregard" of strategicably avoidable civilian casualties as a historical factor in US military strategy. As staunch "allies " of Israel and provider of 3 billion $US annual funds I am sure  there is a significant degree of  "advice" provided as a marker to such  funds.

Maybe before your  breastfed years but do you know how many bombs to almost no effect  were rained down on Laos killing 2 million non combatant peasants and leaving a legacy of unexploded ordinance that annually still kills people  ? And even in those times the cost?

 

From your previous post:

 

"that it is the result of typical US  military tactics as advised/prescribed to IDF strategy".

 

Sounded like you're trying to make into a USA/Israel thing. If you accept all armies do it, not sure what your point was.

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

I am going to leave it at that.

 

I suggest you do, claiming Israel has no justification to ask for its hostages back is shameful. There's no turning back now. You're outed

I never said Israel has no justification to ask for its hostages back, read my posts and tell me where I said that? If you can’t I will accept your apology.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I never said Israel has no justification to ask for its hostages back, read my posts and tell me where I said that? If you can’t I will accept your apology.

 

Yes you did, your exact words were "Its wrong for Israel to use this as a lever"

 

Go back in your hole

 

[placeholder]

Oddly enough, many Gazans don't want to flee. For some unfathomable reason, they believe that once Israelis invade, they won't be allowed to return to their homes. Hmmmm....whatever could make them think that?

 

Palestinians Are Refusing to Flee Israeli Bombing in Gaza. ‘If I Die, I Die.’
Many families won’t leave their homes in the north, fearing a repeat of the mass displacement 75 years ago

“I don’t care anymore,” said Basil Abu Sada, a 35-year-old software engineer whose great-grandfather first brought the family to Jabalia. He worries that if they leave, they won’t find food or shelter—or ever be able to return. “If I die, I die.”
Hundreds of thousands of other Palestinians are refusing to leave the northern Gaza Strip, which the Israeli military is bombing in advance of an expected ground offensive. 

https://archive.ph/ORrQW

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-gaza-israel-bombing-d838b23d

[Yellowtail]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Oddly enough, many Gazans don't want to flee. For some unfathomable reason, they believe that once Israelis invade, they won't be allowed to return to their homes. Hmmmm....whatever could make them think that?

 

Palestinians Are Refusing to Flee Israeli Bombing in Gaza. ‘If I Die, I Die.’
Many families won’t leave their homes in the north, fearing a repeat of the mass displacement 75 years ago

“I don’t care anymore,” said Basil Abu Sada, a 35-year-old software engineer whose great-grandfather first brought the family to Jabalia. He worries that if they leave, they won’t find food or shelter—or ever be able to return. “If I die, I die.”
Hundreds of thousands of other Palestinians are refusing to leave the northern Gaza Strip, which the Israeli military is bombing in advance of an expected ground offensive. 

https://archive.ph/ORrQW

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-gaza-israel-bombing-d838b23d

So, do you think the Biden administration should be doing more to assure them that they will have food and shelter, and that they will be allowed to return to their homes once hamas is eradicated?  

[Jeff the Chef]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It is irrelevant only in your mind. Reality works in different ways.

Civilians are not 100% legally protected from harm in war situations. Deal with it.

If that's the case 1400 Israeli's who were killed by Hamas is also a war situation. Deal with that.

 

[Jeff the Chef]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You are shooting for a strong differentiation between Hamas and the Palestinian people.

 

Hamas is a hybrid organization - it's a terrorist outfit, a political party and a provider of social services. On various opinion polls Hamas gets a hefty chunk of voter support - not a majority, but usually doing better than the competition. So the disconnect you're after (for obvious reasons) is not there.

 

It doesn't make every Palestinian into a Hamas member/supporter, not even all Gazans. But the attempt to minimize Hamas role in Palestinian society and politics is simply unacceptable.

 

Let me add this - following the initial Hamas attack there were mobs of Gazans pouring through to Israel, looting and murdering. Thousands. At the time hostages were brought into Gaza crowds followed vehicles carrying them cheering (and worse). There were celebrations all over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

 

Have you ever considered why?

[Jeff the Chef]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

As per intent, the IDF does not target civilians. If it was the death toll would have been way higher.

As per scale - not to be callous, but this is small potatoes compared to other conflicts in the region and elsewhere.

So 5,000 plus Palestinians killed since the 7th is small potatoes, tell that to the Palestinians, and while your at it tell the Israeli's 1400 slaughtered by Hamas is small potatoes too.