Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Oh god, here we go again - on another thread I'm a gay hater, now I'm a jew hater.  I have no feelings either negative or positive towards jews.  I was simply pointing out the allegiance of much of the US government - which by the way is common knowledge.

You clearly posted a big fat lie about the US congress. The type of lie Jew haters spread. You outed yourself dude.

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Whatever happened was clearly a f up not reflecting IDF policy.

What happened was the execution of three suspected Palestinians.  How many more timers this has happened we will never know - we only know about this one because they shot their own!

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I repeat.......the second time - after the guy had run inside? Another mistake?

 

Wasted enough time on you.....adios.

Don't blame you for running after you outed your real agenda.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

What happened was the execution of three suspected Palestinians.  How many more timers this has happened we will never know - we only know about this one because they shot their own!

Funny no comment when the Israelis had rows of prisoners in the streets. 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, asf6 said:

It would be interesting to know exactly what they felt threatened by.  

Traps. They are fighting urban warfare against an enemy that knows the territory. Duh.

[MangoKorat]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You clearly posted a big fat lie about the US congress. The type of lie Jew haters spread. You outed yourself dude.

OK, I was speaking figuratively but it is well known that all US governments rely heavily on the jewish vote.  This has been reported on for years by all sides and is why the US would never stop funding Israel etc etc.

 

That was well known before the current conflict began - all US Presidents have had to pay much attention to the jewish vote.

[Jingthing]

To clarify.

The current US congress has 535 members.

37 are Jews. 

Half the congress would be about 267.

37 isn't nearly half.

Spreading lies of global Jewish control like that is a classic weapon of Jew haters throughout history.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

OK, I was speaking figuratively but it is well known that all US governments rely heavily on the jewish vote.  This has been reported on for years by all sides and is why the US would never stop funding Israel etc etc.

 

That was well known before the current conflict began - all US Presidents have had to pay much attention to the jewish vote.

No you were spreading a Jew hating trope. 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Idiot, its beditime here and I've more to do than argue with a childish loony that supports Genocide.

So now I support genocide? Just because I push back against your vile propaganda?

[asf6]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Traps. They are fighting urban warfare against an enemy that knows the territory. Duh.

 

Is that what they said or is that what you imagine they might say? 

[MangoKorat]

25 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

To clarify.

The current US congress has 535 members.

37 are Jews. 

Half the congress would be about 267.

37 isn't nearly half.

Spreading lies of global Jewish control like that is a classic weapon of Jew haters throughout history.

This might explain things to you:

 

https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/the-jewish-vote
political-power-and-identity-in-us-elections/

 

Its common knowledge and not something that politicians of any flavour tend to ignore.

 

And once again, just in case you are having problems with your understanding mechanism..........I am not a jew hater. I don't give a damn about anyone's religion, what is wrong with you?  Do you have a problem with English of are you just another 'selective reader'........doesn't wash with me mate. Way above your station.

 

As I have explained at least twice, I was simply trying to explain the influence of the jewish vote on US government policy.

[MangoKorat]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No you were spreading a Jew hating trope. 

Where? Be precise.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Traps. They are fighting urban warfare against an enemy that knows the territory. Duh.

Remember this, many of the IDF's soldiers are conscripts and its possible that just as there are dissenting voices in the Israeli civillian population, once this is over, any potential dissenters in the armed forces may well tell the story of what actually went on.  I've heard it said that the numbers of civiallians being killed in this conflict is way out of proportion with that in other recent wars. Traps are something a soldier has to deal with and that cannot be by simply killing anyone suspected of trying to trap them - otherwise that excuse could be applied to just about any situation involving civillians.  Should they shoot and kill an apparently injured child for example, in the fear that she might be concealing an explosive device?

 

Whatever, there will I suggest, be an investigation into the actions of both Hamas and the IDF carried out by the International Criminal Court into war crimes.  Based on the reports that I've seen on both UK and Israeli TV, the evidence in the case of the 3 young men killed would strongly suggest that war crimes were committed - evidence that I am yet to see Israel deny, only their conclusion is different.

 

There is a case to answer for breaking the standard rules of engagement and for the unlawful killing of unarmed civillians. A soldier cannot engage as an enemy, anyone who does not present an immediate threat to either human life or infrastructure unless otherwise ordered to do so by an officer he is subordinate to - even then, he/she is on thin ice. In that case, responsibility for any crime committed partially passes to that officer. 

 

Given the reported facts, it may be possible for a soldier to claim some form of mistake for shooting the first two men (doubtful) but the third young man who went inside a building and then called out in Hebrew?? Not a hope.  The first mistake, if indeed it was a mistake, or the possibility of a mistake would by then be clear and the second man should have been told to come out with his hands up. The fundamental point here is that a white flag was being waved. That is an internationally recognised sign of surrender and I don't see how any soldier could argue his/her way out of that.  There are agreed ways of dealing with both civillians and opposing forces displaying a white flag - methods designed to give the dominant force protection.

 

The sheer amount of Palestinian deaths points towards an indiscriminate bombing of clearly civillian areas, schools and hospitals - again illegal. Israel's claims that Hamas hides in such places have not been backed up by convincing evidence.

 

From sympathy over the 7th October Massacre - support for Israel has fallen drastically across the world - if not by governments, by the people.  Here in the UK the government has failed to outrightly condemn the actions of Israel in this matter but recent polls show the public strongly against Israel's clearly indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. The place is just a wasteland - even the worst photos and videos from Ukraine don't show such utter devastation.

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

This war started in 1948. Claiming that it started on Oct 7 is a logically and ethically untenable position.

Trolling yet again ozimoron. This war started on Oct 7th, we've been through this before and its been discussed numerous times previously. Mods have also made public notices.

 

Israel formally declares war against Hamas 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-hamas-war-gaza/

 

Topic

Latest developments and discussion of events in the Israel-Hamas War

 

For your info, Hamas was not around in 1948

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Well I'll give it a go...........

 

But first I will state that the attacks on Israeli civillians on 7th October were horrific and the work of animals.  But let's be clear here, those attacks were committed by Hamas. They were not committed by Palestinian Civillians.

 

So, returning to war crimes committed by Israel - since the start of this war, Israel has been accused of the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.  Israel have used as their reasoning that such civillians are actually the victims of Hamas who force 'collateral damage' through hiding amongst the population.  The Israelis also made out that Hamas sited their weapons storage and other infrastructure in public buildings and schools. Even that Hamas had a major heaquarters in the Al Shifa hospital.  The photos I've seen, provided by the Israelis after the capture the Al Shifa showed a handful of weapons, some clothing and, I think, one laptop - hardly a headqaurters.

 

I have never believed that the Israelis were taking much care of where they were bombing or have any particular care for Palestinian civillians.  That conviction was totally justified last week when Israeli soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli citizens who were un-armed and waving a white flag.  If they have no care for anyone waving a white flag, what hope do Palestinians have?

 

The Israelis actions are both indefensible and futile.  The amount of 'collateral damage' has been stated as far higher than that in any other war and what do they think they are currently creating in Gaza?  They may well defeat Hamas but just how do they think the remaining Palestinians will regard them?

 

Their actions are creating a force far bigger than Hamas ever was from people who won't care - what have they got to lose? Unless the rest of the world steps in they have no future.  Prior to this the Israeli right wing regarded Palestinians as little more than dogs - how will they treat them once they are defeated?  What do such actions breed?

 

From the start of the conflict the Israelis have ordered the Palestinians to move from one area to another and then shelled the area they told people to move to.  They did exactly that again last week when they told some Palestinians to move to Rafah City then bombed it the next day.

 

Although it is in no way an excuse for the 7th October attrocities, the Israeli government's behaviour over the last few years has been a huge contributory factor in the situation that lead to the current situation. Even as I write, Israeli 'settlers' are stealing Palestinian farms and land in the West Bank and shooting Palestinians.  As the UN's Anthony Guterrez said  - this situation was not created out of a vacuum.  In 2015 Netanyahu stated that there will never be a Palestinian State and has repeated that several times since - last week he said it will never happen. That cannot stand and neither can Hamas's intent to destroy Israel continue.

 

Like many, I have always believed that any solution to the decades old conflict in Israel/Palestine must include the disolution of groups such as Hamas but Israel must also get rid of its right wing government and stop encouraging the stealing of land. Both sides must recognise each other's right to exist.

 

My overall concern at the moment is the huge amount of Palestinians being killed by Israel's attacks every day. There is no and can be no - excuse for what is going on at the moment. Its not collateral damage, its slaughter.

 

So War Crimes:

• Indiscriminate bombing of civillian buildings/homes
• Shooting of unarmed Palestinian civillians
• Shooting of unidentified/unarmed people waving white flags
• Failing to allow adequate humanitarian aid to some areas
• Failing to allow sufficient humanitarian aid overall
• Deliberate turning off of water supplies
• Carrying out military operations in refugee camps

They will, I have no doubt, add to that list as time moves on.  I am also sure that Hamas have also committed War Crimes but that wasn't your question.

Next time you write a story please add some references as you've got nothing but unsubstantiated claims there.

 

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Given the treatment the Palestinians have received at the hands of the Israeli's. Who do they expect them to sympathise with?  What Israel is doing at the moment is nothing short of Genocide.  To they best of my knowledge it is not against the law to sympathise with a terrorist organisation - misguided yes but in a lot of ways, its understandable. Note: Sympathise is not the same as Support.

 

I support the right of all people to live - be they Israeli or Palestinian. I hate to say it but I wonder just what the Israeli's would do if they weren't under such international pressure? It seems to me that given the chance, they would simply wipe the Palestinians of the face of the earth.

Can you provide a credible link to that Genocide claim?

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Next time you write a story please add some references as you've got nothing but unsubstantiated claims there.

 

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

Given that just about everything I've written has been the subject of countless news reports recently, I didn't see the need to reference what I consider to be common knowledge.  I will be leaving shortly but if there's something specific you wish to be referenced, I'd be happy to when I have time - however, I'm at work for 4 days solid now.

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Again and again and again...............yes HAMAS murdered Thai workers......NOT Palestinians - how can anyone be so stupid?

Hamas has murdered plenty of its own Palestinians in the past and is currently using them as human shields now which is also a war crime

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

BUT ITS PALESTINIAN CIVILLIANS THAT ARE BEING KILLED - AROUND 20,000 OF THEM!!!

You are forgetting the terrorists in that figure, I wonder why?

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas has murdered plenty of its own Palestinians in the past and is currently using them as human shields now which is also a war crime

I have no said they haven't.  Indeed, if you get to one of my later posts you will see that I mention that both sides will be the subject of an investigation by the ICC.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, MangoKorat said:

Why would I need a link to what is clearly an opinion?

 

Both sides have sworn to destroy the other - only Israel has the military power to do that.

 

If you have some difficulty with the meaning of Genocide, its here:

 

genocide

/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/

 

noun

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

   "a campaign of genocide"

    

   Oxford Languages

The definition is not proof, if that's your method of citation you need to go back to school:

 

How the term “genocide” is misused in the Israel-Hamas war

The systematic murder of 6m Jews by the Nazis was genocide. The organised butchery of perhaps 500,000 ethnic Tutsis by Hutu militias in Rwanda in 1994 was too.

By the un definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis (and other nationalities) were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.

https://archive.ph/O8HpJ

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/11/10/how-the-term-genocide-is-misused-in-the-israel-hamas-war

[MangoKorat]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

You are forgetting the terrorists in that figure, I wonder why?

Listen, if you think I'm going to be baited by your stupid questions and comments, you're wrong - enough of that with the other idiot.

 

The facts here, in this particular part of the discussion is that Israel shot and killed 3 unarmed men who were waving white flags. End of.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I have no said they haven't.  Indeed, if you get to one of my later posts you will see that I mention that both sides will be the subject of an investigation by the ICC.

So now the dishonesty creeps in, that's exactly what you said:

 

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

The definition is not proof, if that's your method of citation you need to go back to school:

 

How the term “genocide” is misused in the Israel-Hamas war

The systematic murder of 6m Jews by the Nazis was genocide. The organised butchery of perhaps 500,000 ethnic Tutsis by Hutu militias in Rwanda in 1994 was too.

By the un definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis (and other nationalities) were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.

https://archive.ph/O8HpJ

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/11/10/how-the-term-genocide-is-misused-in-the-israel-hamas-war

The opinon of a media outlet which is at odds with the dictionary meaning.

 

1 Israeli dead is too many - as is 1 Palestinian.

 

May I remind you that this is not a competition, people are dying as we type.  The figures are huge, no matter which source you use.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Listen, if you think I'm going to be baited by your stupid questions and comments, you're wrong - enough of that with the other idiot.

 

The facts here, in this particular part of the discussion is that Israel shot and killed 3 unarmed men who were waving white flags. End of.

What's that got to do with you deliberately missing out the number of terrorists in the figure of 20,000?

 

But yes I see now not only dishonesty but also flaming. 

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

So now the dishonesty creeps in, that's exactly what you said:

 

Eh?  what are you on about, read the correct post.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

The opinon of a media outlet which is at odds with the dictionary meaning.

 

1 Israeli dead is too many - as is 1 Palestinian.

 

May I remind you that this is not a competition, people are dying as we type.  The figures are huge, no matter which source you use.

Still waiting for proof to your claim that it is Genocide

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, MangoKorat said:

Eh?  what are you on about, read the correct post.

 

I just an image to correct post, your not doing very well here so far

[MangoKorat]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

What's that got to do with you deliberately missing out the number of terrorists in the figure of 20,000?

 

But yes I see now not only dishonesty but also flaming. 

I did not deliberately miss out the number of terrorists. I have no idea how many died.  10 thousand, twenty thousand - what does it matter, they are huge figures.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, MangoKorat said:

I did not deliberately miss out the number of terrorists. I have no idea how many died.  10 thousand, twenty thousand - what does it matter, they are huge figures.

Facts matter as do links to those facts, something you are also missing out