The Problem With EVs

[novacova]

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

[tgw]

41 minutes ago, novacova said:

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

 

a nice demonstration of what I wrote earlier, that electric vehicles won't be operational in case of emergencies. but I should have added "abnormal conditions".

EV work when everything is normal. normal weather, normal society, normal schedule.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, novacova said:

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

A battery is a chemical reaction which produces electricity. All chemical reactions are slower when it is cold.

Cold has several effects on EV's. It reduces the operating range of the EV by up to 40%. It also increases the charging time of the battery from 20 minutes to several hours. ICE's use waste heat to warm the cabin, EV's have to heat the car from the battery.

It's quite obvious EV owners in those regions are having second thoughts about the wisdom of their purchase.

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, novacova said:

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

Pile of crap cars.

Maybe the next U.S. President will stop all this EV nonsense being forced down peoples throats.

 

[josephbloggs]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Pile of crap cars.

Maybe the next U.S. President will stop all this EV nonsense being forced down peoples throats.

 

Thanks for your educated insight, very enlightening.

Ah yeah, good old Donald who claims EVs need to be charged every 15 minutes, or who claims Biden says all cars must be EVs in ten years (he didn't - but he is proposing emission standards just like everywhere else in the modern world, how automakers achieve those targets is up to them ). Nothing is being forced down your throat (although obviously I don't know about your personal life).

Let's all hail the lying, rambling, incoherent orange buffoon, yay!

[JBChiangRai]

11 hours ago, novacova said:

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

 

Yep, that's going to be a real problem here in Thailand.

 

We must not forget to precondition our cars before arriving at the charging station in sub-zero temperatures.

[Gweiloman]

12 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A battery is a chemical reaction which produces electricity. All chemical reactions are slower when it is cold.

Cold has several effects on EV's. It reduces the operating range of the EV by up to 40%. It also increases the charging time of the battery from 20 minutes to several hours. ICE's use waste heat to warm the cabin, EV's have to heat the car from the battery.

It's quite obvious EV owners in those regions are having second thoughts about the wisdom of their purchase.

I’m not a chemist so I wouldn’t know but are there conditions such as extreme cold that could cause the 12 volt lead acid battery to stop working or too weak to produce sufficient charge to crank the engine?

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Gweiloman said:

I’m not a chemist so I wouldn’t know but are there conditions such as extreme cold that could cause the 12 volt lead acid battery to stop working or too weak to produce sufficient charge to crank the engine?

 

Lead Acid batteries are weaker in the cold too, and the oil in the engine is thicker, it takes more energy to turn over an ICE vehicle in the cold..

 

The problem reported in Chicago is user error.  Tesla's won't charge if too cold, they all know this.  Tesla provides an option in the car to precondition (heat) the battery.  Preconditioning uses the batteries energy and the problem is people are running down the battery to a point where there is not enough energy left to precondition it.  I don't have a Tesla, but I'd be surprised if they don't tell people what amount of charge they need to leave in the battery if they want to precondition it.

 

Norway is a cold country.  83% of all new vehicles bought are EV's and they don't have this problem.  It says more about American Tesla owners than it does about EV's.

[Gweiloman]

14 hours ago, tgw said:

 

a nice demonstration of what I wrote earlier, that electric vehicles won't be operational in case of emergencies. but I should have added "abnormal conditions".

EV work when everything is normal. normal weather, normal society, normal schedule.

Very true, EVs won’t be operational under certain circumstances. 
 

On the other hand, they can come in useful in the event of a power outage so EVs can work when things are not normal…

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Lead Acid batteries are weaker in the cold too, and the oil in the engine is thicker, it takes more energy to turn over an ICE vehicle in the cold..n't have this problem.  It says more about American 

And while it's idling to warm up, you'll have condensation collecting in the exhaust system, leading to that rusting out in the future 

[tgw]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Very true, EVs won’t be operational under certain circumstances. 
 

On the other hand, they can come in useful in the event of a power outage so EVs can work when things are not normal…

 

 

 

they won't last long as a power source.

my 2005 Honda has a 230V power outlet.

Edited January 17 by tgw

[Gweiloman]

13 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Pile of crap cars.

Maybe the next U.S. President will stop all this EV nonsense being forced down peoples throats.

 

Which car did you drive that you felt was crap? Because one can’t reasonably pass judgment on something that one hasn’t tried or experienced, right? That would be ignorance and prejudice.

[Gweiloman]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

 

they won't last long as a power source.

my 2005 Honda has a 220V power outlet.

Hard to say. 50 kWh of power can last quite a few days under normal daily usage. In cases of emergencies, it can easily be stretched to over a week.

 

I didn’t realise that ICEVs had a 220V power outlet. None of my previous cars did. Wonder why it was phased out. At a full tank of petrol for your Honda, how many days could the idle, generating electricity?

[tgw]

Just now, Gweiloman said:

Hard to say. 50 kWh of power can last quite a few days under normal daily usage. In cases of emergencies, it can easily be stretched to over a week.

 

I didn’t realise that ICEVs had a 220V power outlet. None of my previous cars did. Wonder why it was phased out. At a full tank of petrol for your Honda, how many days could the idle, generating electricity?

 

I added the power outlet.

Idling actually has surprisingly high fuel consumption compared to driving.

My expectation for the 2.2 ctdi engine would be around 1 - 1.2 liters per hour, so it could idle for at least 50 hours on a full tank.

But the engine will adapt its power output to the amount of power taken from the outlet, so the RPM will go up if more ampere are drawn.

The most sensible thing to do would be to use the engine only when needed.

[JBChiangRai]

49 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

they won't last long as a power source.

my 2005 Honda has a 230V power outlet.

 

Assuming your Honda has a 100AHr battery, then it contains 1.2KwHr of power, typically an EV has 50-70 times that capacity and will last a very long time supplying power to your house to run air conditioning etc.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

they won't last long as a power source.

my 2005 Honda has a 230V power outlet.

Describe long ...

 

We have solar at house, and are unofficially 'off grid'.  Over a 14 hr period of no production, we use 25-30% of our ESSs on average.  With 2 frigs, AC on all night, 65" TV and couple laptops being used till about midnight (6hrs).

 

At 30%, that's 6kWh of our 20kWh ESSs.  Our EV has 46.3kWh of usable battery.   When we're O&A, the house uses <5kWh a day. Do the math.

Edited January 17 by KhunLA

[Bandersnatch]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

they won't last long as a power source.

 

Really!

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311736-my-ev-can-power-my-home/

 

[novacova]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yep, that's going to be a real problem here in Thailand.

 

We must not forget to precondition our cars before arriving at the charging station in sub-zero temperatures.

Wrong thread…

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316537-1-in-4-vehicles-registered-in-december-in-thailand-was-a-fully-electric/

[JBChiangRai]

7 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yep, that's going to be a real problem here in Thailand.

 

We must not forget to precondition our cars before arriving at the charging station in sub-zero temperatures.

 

28 minutes ago, novacova said:

Wrong thread…

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316537-1-in-4-vehicles-registered-in-december-in-thailand-was-a-fully-electric/

We are talking about the problems with EV’s, not registrations in December.

[tgw]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Really!

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311736-my-ev-can-power-my-home/

 

 

you assume your battery is fully charged.

but disaster strikes unannounced.

most people won't have a solar home to charge their EV without a grid.

 

of course I can see the advantages of solar home + EV, I guess I would go that route myself. but EV without solar home, that's the question I was looking at.

 

regarding the discussion about Kwh, 1 liter of diesel has 12.7 Kwh in theory, and the diesel engine is highly efficient at around 40-45%, so that would net about 5Kwh per liter.

5 Kwh x 60 (assuming full tank) = 300 Kwh, again, in theory, I'm unsure how much gets lost in the car's electric plant.

 

one thing about diesel though, it's that it can be stocked.

Edited January 17 by tgw

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

you assume your battery is fully charged.

but disaster strikes unannounced.

most people won't have a solar home to charge their EV without a grid.

 

of course I can see the advantages of solar home + EV, I guess I would go that route myself. but EV without solar home, that's the question I was looking at.

 

regarding the discussion about Kwh, 1 liter of diesel has 12.7 Kwh in theory, and the diesel engine is highly efficient at around 40-45%, so that would net about 5Kwh per liter.

5 Kwh x 60 (assuming full tank) = 300 Kwh, again, in theory, I'm unsure how much gets lost in the car's electric plant.

 

one thing about diesel though, it's that it can be stocked.

Great ... another 'what if scenario' ...

 

If a disaster, the last thing anyone is going to be concerned about, is their house or auto.

 

If the grid is down, do you think every petrol station has a back up genny ?  During black outs, try geting petrol or even just going to 7-11 in TH.   "Sorry, everything is off" 

 

And yes, you can store electric, just like diesel.  They have some nice solar generators now, great for the weekend camper.  And who stores diesel or petrol at the house, more than enough to mow the lawn.

 

If a 12-24hr black out, I know I can run the house off the car, actually for about 5 days.  Or I could even sleep in the car in AC  comfort overnight @ ~1kWh an hour.  Even brew a cup of coffee in the morning and or make a full brekkie 

Edited January 17 by KhunLA

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

regarding the discussion about Kwh, 1 liter of diesel has 12.7 Kwh in theory, and the diesel engine is highly efficient at around 40-45%, so that would net about 5Kwh per liter.

5 Kwh x 60 (assuming full tank) = 300 Kwh, again, in theory, I'm unsure how much gets lost in the car's electric plant

 

 

I couldn’t find anything on diesel trucks efficiency at producing electricity, but a diesel generator would be way more efficient as they are designed for that specific purpose. So your figures above are way out.

 

“A general rule of thumb is that a diesel generator will use 0.4 L of diesel per kWh produced”

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Diesel_generator

 

1 hour ago, tgw said:

you assume your battery is fully charged.

but disaster strikes unannounced.

 

This is fossil thinking, you have to drive to the filling station to fill up, so most ice drivers only fill up when their vehicle is nearly empty. 

 

1 hour ago, tgw said:

most people won't have a solar home to charge their EV without a grid.

 

You would be surprised just how many EV owners on this forum also have solar. It’s something we talk about a lot.  After all it’s only logical to have solar once you have an EV. My EV is always fully charged as I charge it every day (Use it or Lose it)

 

 

[Gweiloman]

15 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

 

I couldn’t find anything on diesel trucks efficiency at producing electricity, but a diesel generator would be way more efficient as they are designed for that specific purpose. So your figures above are way out.

 

“A general rule of thumb is that a diesel generator will use 0.4 L of diesel per kWh produced”

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Diesel_generator

 

 

This is fossil thinking, you have to drive to the filling station to fill up, so most ice drivers only fill up when their vehicle is nearly empty. 

 

 

You would be surprised just how many EV owners on this forum also have solar. It’s something we talk about a lot.  After all it’s only logical to have solar once you have an EV. My EV is always fully charged as I charge it every day (Use it or Lose it)

 

 

Taking these approximate figures, 1 litre of diesel generates 2 kWh of electricity, so about 32 baht. That’s 3 times the price as compared to an EV, if charging the EV battery from the grid. If charged from solar…

 

Significant difference in price.

[Issanman]

On 1/16/2024 at 7:12 PM, novacova said:

I’m sure the neighbors heard me laugh when I seen this…

 

“Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: ‘A bunch of dead robots out here’”

 

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/?jw_start={seek_to_second_number}

 

https://calgary.citynews.ca/video/2024/01/12/gas-pumps-freeze-at-calgary-gas-stations/

 

[HighPriority]

3 hours ago, Issanman said:

 

https://calgary.citynews.ca/video/2024/01/12/gas-pumps-freeze-at-calgary-gas-stations/

 

More moron ice drivers… 🤦🏼‍♂️