The Problem With EVs

[josephbloggs]

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I usually pay for my gasoline with cash.

So if there is a service provider outage, EV owners are basically screwed?

 

Yes, if all the electricity is out across the country and there is no UPS backup all EV owners are absolutely screwed. So are hospitals, banks, airports....

If your service provider explodes you are screwed too. When was the last time your service provider went down? I've been with AIS for over 20 years and don't remember there ever being a service outage. But if really worry so much about things that don't happen, or if the most remote and unlikely "what if" scenario scares you, then stick with your ICE.

BTW many people don't use cash anymore, I rarely carry cash. So if I fill my car with petrol but then there is a service provider outage, or if I am filling up in some mysterious remote location that doesn't have a phone signal (not sure why there would be a petrol station in somewhere so remote) then I'm screwed. Damn, I had never considered that, not sure how I'll sleep at night now.

This might be handy for you so you know where not to go: https://www.nperf.com/en/map/TH/-/19345.AIS-Mobile/signal/?ll=13.100879969526488&lg=101.55761718750001&zoom=5
 

[WhatMeWorry]

I have enough anxiety in my life without worrying about my car.

[James105]

35 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

 

1. How extremely isolated do you have to be to have no mobile signal? I don't remember the last time I've not been able to get a signal.

2. If this extremely isolated place is on your journey you're not going to drive there with an empty battery, just as you wouldn't drive in to an extremely isolated place with an empty tank of petrol either. That would be extremely stupid in both cases.

3. Why would they put a charging station (or a petrol station) somewhere that is so extremely isolated that it doesn't have a mobile signal? There would be no passing traffic so no business case to have either a CS or a petrol station.

4. It really is a stupid argument.

 

I presume an owner of a petrol powered car would be able to take the humble jerry can filled with petrol if driving to an isolated area as a backup in the event there are no petrol stations.   What is the similar solution for an EV?  

 

Maybe one day when EV's have standardised and easily swappable small batteries that can be exchanged for a fully charged one, or when the batteries are small enough to be able to carry spares, then they will become mainstream.    For now they are really just for early adopters who are able to fit their lifestyle around their cars.   Nothing wrong with that of course, but I get the impression that based on the amount of time people spend defending their purchase choice on this that they have a bit of buyers remorse.  

[josephbloggs]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

I presume an owner of a petrol powered car would be able to take the humble jerry can filled with petrol if driving to an isolated area as a backup in the event there are no petrol stations.   What is the similar solution for an EV?  

 

There isn't one, you got me. Personally I wouldn't be driving in to a desolate remote area with a low battery or a low tank - it's just rather stupid to do in any case. I would have filled up at the last main town or non deserted remote forest (or wherever we're going in your made up scenario). And do you usually carry a jerry can full of petrol around with you "just in case"?

 

Quote

Maybe one day when EV's have standardised and easily swappable small batteries that can be exchanged for a fully charged one, or when the batteries are small enough to be able to carry spares, then they will become mainstream.    For now they are really just for early adopters who are able to fit their lifestyle around their cars.   Nothing wrong with that of course, but I get the impression that based on the amount of time people spend defending their purchase choice on this that they have a bit of buyers remorse.  

 

If you have read any of the threads here you will absolutely see there is not a jot of buyers remorse, everyone who drives an EV say they would never go back to ICE. I don't own an EV but having spent time with one I can say with 100% certainty that I would never buy another ICE.

The only remorse the owners here have is that of having to constantly combat EV-haters who post made up drivel or who dream up ridiculous scenarios (that will never happen in a hundred years) to justify their blind hatred. It is tiresome.

What I don't understand is why the anti EV brigade are so rabid. Do they go in to threads about other things to say how much they hate them or how stupid they are? Not sure why they get so particularly triggered about EVs to make up or propagate nonsense. 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, James105 said:

 Nothing wrong with that of course, but I get the impression that based on the amount of time people spend defending their purchase choice on this that they have a bit of buyers remorse.  

No remorse here, and Lovin' It 

Picked up the perfect EV for us, at just the right time.  Size, range, specs, price (govt incentive) all the stars line up perfectly, and already had solar to top it off.

 

Could have waited 2 years for the E-MB purchase, as had a slight upgrade and govt incentive, so actually 10k baht cheaper.   But then would have missed out on 2 yrs of driving fun + savings.

 

Actually feel sorry for the ignorant people who can, but aren't taking advantage of EVs now. Whether 4 wheel cars, MB, or just a ebike.  We have all 3 and all serve their purpose.

 

Can have something that performs better, cost less to operate and maintain, but won't even consider due to pure ignorance, borderline stupidity.

 

You can't fix stupid

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Yes, if all the electricity is out across the country and there is no UPS backup all EV owners are absolutely screwed. So are hospitals, banks, airports....

If your service provider explodes you are screwed too. When was the last time your service provider went down? I've been with AIS for over 20 years and don't remember there ever being a service outage. But if really worry so much about things that don't happen, or if the most remote and unlikely "what if" scenario scares you, then stick with your ICE.

BTW many people don't use cash anymore, I rarely carry cash. So if I fill my car with petrol but then there is a service provider outage, or if I am filling up in some mysterious remote location that doesn't have a phone signal (not sure why there would be a petrol station in somewhere so remote) then I'm screwed. Damn, I had never considered that, not sure how I'll sleep at night now.

This might be handy for you so you know where not to go: https://www.nperf.com/en/map/TH/-/19345.AIS-Mobile/signal/?ll=13.100879969526488&lg=101.55761718750001&zoom=5
 

I am not worried about "what if " scenarios, I am posting as hypothetical situations. I have occasional service provider outages, none of which concern me.

The point I am making is even without any refuelling stations in sight, it's easy enough to transfer fuel from one ICE to another. Siphoning electrons is a tad more difficult.

I usually carry about 3000 baht in cash with me, which is enough to deal with almost any situation.

You are located in Bangkok. I have no doubt most people use electronic cash transfers there. Here in Chiang Rai, Thais still buy gold as a hedge against inflation, and cash is still king. I get to see customers in the banks withdrawing notes piled up like house bricks.

Perhaps you should get out of Bangkok more, all that air pollution year round can't be doing your brain cells any good.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I usually pay for my gasoline with cash.

So if there is a service provider outage, EV owners are basically screwed?

 

More than 1 CS vendor on the roads, and more than enough.

 

If the grid is down, you won't be getting any petrol pumped either.  

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The point I am making is even without any refuelling stations in sight, it's easy enough to transfer fuel from one ICE to another. Siphoning electrons is a tad more difficult.

 

I can charge another EV off my car, in an emergency situation, as many cars can.  Abet, would take some time, but available in your hypothetical silliness.

 

What if (even more silliness) ... the grid goes down for a month or permanently.   Solar & EVs  ... oops, you didn't buy in ... oh well 

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[josephbloggs]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

I can charge another EV off my car, in an emergency situation, as many cars can.  Abet, would take some time, but available in your hypothetical silliness.

 

What if (even more silliness) ... the grid goes down for a month or permanently.   Solar & EVs  ... oops, you didn't buy in ... oh well 

What if there was an earthquake and your EV fell in to a ravine? Not so much use to you then is it? See you didn't consider that scenario. Buyers remorse much?

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

This is a BYD Atto 3 battery pack, all tightly packed leaf cells, no gaps, no cooling.

For sure there is cooling, maybe it’s underneath but all EV’s have cooling.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

This is a BYD Atto 3 battery pack, all tightly packed leaf cells, no gaps, no cooling.

 

The BYD blade batteries have cooling plates bonded across the full width of each cell. Each blade cell is capable of conducting heat towards the point where contact is made with the cooling plate.

 

Not the best choice for those wishing to dismantle and repurpose EV batteries.

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

What if there was an earthquake and your EV fell in to a ravine? Not so much use to you then is it? See you didn't consider that scenario. Buyers remorse much?

I have to confess, I don't sleep well, and stay awake thinking about the grid crashing, and then ...

 

... the sun no longer shines.  All those wasted solar panels 

 

I'm starting to miss bignok's silly threads.   At least he asked some rational questions before people attacked him.

 

Anti EV'er & fanboys ... what a divide

Goys - Straights

Dems - Reps

Torries - ????  (I'm clueless on UK politics)

Brexit'er - Remainer 👍

Carnivores - Vegans

Red - Yellow shirts

Haves - Have Nots

Vax'd - Un Vax'd

 

W T F over

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

Can have something that performs better, cost less to operate and maintain, but won't even consider due to pure ignorance, borderline stupidity.

 

You can't fix stupid

I bought a 2006 Toyota Vios about 7 years ago. 83,000 km on the odometer, 230,000 baht. It's worth about 80,000 baht now, more to me. It now has about 100,000 more in km, and has never missed a beat. My mechanic says it may expire at about 400,000 km. It will probably outlast me easily.

How much depreciation do you think your EV will undergo in 7 years? What is stupid, me buying a vehicle of known reliability, which almost any mechanic in Thailand can diagnose and service, or you shelling out upwards of 800K baht for a vehicle whose servicing infrastructure and replacement parts inventory are unknown quantities?

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I bought a 2006 Toyota Vios about 7 years ago. 83,000 km on the odometer, 230,000 baht. It's worth about 80,000 baht now, more to me. It now has about 100,000 more in km, and has never missed a beat. My mechanic says it may expire at about 400,000 km. It will probably outlast me easily.

How much depreciation do you think your EV will undergo in 7 years? What is stupid, me buying a vehicle of known reliability, which almost any mechanic in Thailand can diagnose and service, or you shelling out upwards of 800K baht for a vehicle whose servicing infrastructure and replacement parts inventory are unknown quantities?

Owned 2 Vios, and certainly would never buy another, or a Yaris, since same thing, and Vios is discontinued here.

 

Same with Mazda 2, as owned that also, or any ICEV

 

I'd take Neta V over any entry level JP badged car 'made in TH'

 

Our MG ZS EV has an expected (low end) life span (battery & motor) of about 900k kms, with -0- energy (fuel) cost, since have solar, for the life of the car.  Saving us the price of the car over a 16 yr period if driving 20k kms a year.  Or ~40k baht a year, if having to charge at home

 

BEAT THAT

 

A petrol car will cost the price of the car, over 16 yr period to operate, just fueling.   Then have to shell out the full price for another.   We'll (wife) just use our petrol saving for any new purchase down the road.

 

Depreciation is something I've never worried about.   Why would I sell a perfectly good car, something I've only done once, as was leaving the USA permanently.  Our MG will probably our last car, or if not, given to our daughter.  Any car 10+ yrs old will be more valuable as a gift to someone, than selling.

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I bought a 2006 Toyota Vios about 7 years ago. 83,000 km on the odometer, 230,000 baht. It's worth about 80,000 baht now, more to me. It now has about 100,000 more in km, and has never missed a beat. My mechanic says it may expire at about 400,000 km. It will probably outlast me easily.

How much depreciation do you think your EV will undergo in 7 years? What is stupid, me buying a vehicle of known reliability, which almost any mechanic in Thailand can diagnose and service, or you shelling out upwards of 800K baht for a vehicle whose servicing infrastructure and replacement parts inventory are unknown quantities?

The problem with old Toyota Vios, is the front windscreen have to be replaced 

[Lacessit]

20 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I can charge another EV off my car, in an emergency situation, as many cars can.  Abet, would take some time, but available in your hypothetical silliness.

 

What if (even more silliness) ... the grid goes down for a month or permanently.   Solar & EVs  ... oops, you didn't buy in ... oh well 

What's silly is the way EV owners defend their electric Jesus when deficiencies in the technology are pointed out, as if such comments are blasphemy.

 

Just calculate the probabilities of one EV owner encountering another EV owner, one who is equipped to transfer electrons, with the patience to wait several hours. Less than 8% of total vehicles in Thailand.

 

Even then, I doubt you can appreciate how abjectly dumb your post is.

[James105]

38 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

No remorse here, and Lovin' It 

Picked up the perfect EV for us, at just the right time.  Size, range, specs, price (govt incentive) all the stars line up perfectly, and already had solar to top it off.

 

Could have waited 2 years for the E-MB purchase, as had a slight upgrade and govt incentive, so actually 10k baht cheaper.   But then would have missed out on 2 yrs of driving fun + savings.

 

Actually feel sorry for the ignorant people who can, but aren't taking advantage of EVs now. Whether 4 wheel cars, MB, or just a ebike.  We have all 3 and all serve their purpose.

 

Can have something that performs better, cost less to operate and maintain, but won't even consider due to pure ignorance, borderline stupidity.

 

You can't fix stupid

 

If they were good enough then they would not need government incentives though and people would just buy them if they were better.  There were no government incentives for companies to use email over fax for example, but companies switched to email as email is simply better.

 

Will the government will be there to help when the battery degrades and the car has lost almost all its value? 

 

I'm all for early adopting tech, but I have my limits and EVs (currently) is beyond that limit due to the battery degradation problem, the extra weight of the car, the range issues and the time it takes to charge issue.    I suspect when these things are mainstream it will be in about 2/3 decades time, the batteries are a LOT smaller and swappable and that is of course no competing fuel technology that does not have the same problems comes along in the meantime.  

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

What's silly is the way EV owners defend their electric Jesus when deficiencies in the technology are pointed out, as if such comments are blasphemy.

 

Just calculate the probabilities of one EV owner encountering another EV owner, one who is equipped to transfer electrons, with the patience to wait several hours. Less than 8% of total vehicles in Thailand.

 

Even then, I doubt you can appreciate how abjectly dumb your post is.

Not defending anything, as quite happy with our purchase.   Just trying to correct the BS, as there may actually be people reading who are considering an EV.

 

Shame if they are turned off the idea by a bunch of anti EV/CH folks spewing a bunch of BS.

 

All these stupid A$$ what if scenarios, or false and or exaggerated claims of EV problems.

 

Are they/EVs perfect, probably not.

Are they for everyone, probably not

Would they fit most people's lifestyle and save them money over the life of the vehicle, while probably performing better ... probably YES

 

Would EV owners buy another ICEV ... probably NOT

... that's a bit telling right there

 

People can take the advice, recommendation of experienced EV owners, or sift through the BS of non-EV owners ... hmm, which would be more credible 

 

Anyone else wonder why anti EV'ers start a lot of statements with 'if' 

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The problem with old Toyota Vios, is the front windscreen have to be replaced 

If the crack is not in my line of sight, no. It's more a cosmetic issue.

[JBChiangRai]

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

If the crack is not in my line of sight, no. It's more a cosmetic issue.

That was a joke as I know you were recently looking for one.

[JBChiangRai]

People with no experience with EV’s can think of 1,000,001 reasons not to have one.

 

People who do have one generally think they’re wonderful and can discount all of those reasons.

 

Ignorance vs experience.

[HighPriority]

44 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I can charge another EV off my car, in an emergency situation, as many cars can.  Abet, would take some time, but available in your hypothetical silliness.

 

What if (even more silliness) ... the grid goes down for a month or permanently.   Solar & EVs  ... oops, you didn't buy in ... oh well 

I assumed that topping another vehicle was possible, I guess the haters will just need to dream up another hypothetical now…

[HighPriority]

43 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

What if there was an earthquake and your EV fell in to a ravine? Not so much use to you then is it? See you didn't consider that scenario. Buyers remorse much?

Ohh yeah… well he’d be screwed if he didn’t carry 3000 baht in cash with him !

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not defending anything, as quite happy with our purchase.   Just trying to correct the BS, as there may actually be people reading who are considering an EV.

 

Shame if they are turned off the idea by and bunch of anti EV/CH folks spewing a bunch of BS.

 

All these stupid A$$ what if scenarios, or false and or exaggerated claims of EV problems.

 

Are they/EV perfect, probably not.

Are the for everyone, probably not

Would they fit most people's lifestyle and save them money over the life of the vehicle, while probably performing betteer ... probably YES

 

Would EV owners buy another ICEV ... probably NOT

... that's a bit telling right there

 

People can take the advice, recommendation of experienced EV owners, or sift through the BS of non-EV owners ... hmm, which would be more credible 

There's a very good reason an EV owner would not buy another ICE. It would shoot down their false virtue signalling in flames.

 

I don't mind taking the advice of an experienced EV owner. I certainly don't want the advice of a biased one.

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

That was a joke as I know you were recently looking for one.

It passed the last annual inspection. Mind you, I've seen vehicles passed in the test facility that should be in a junkyard.

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

There's a very good reason an EV owner would not buy another ICE. It would shoot down their false virtue signalling in flames.

 

I don't mind taking the advice of an experienced EV owner. I certainly don't want the advice of a biased one.

Using that logic, my false virtue signaling went in flames when I ...

... wouldn't buy another (3rd) Vios

... or another Mazda 2

... or even another MG ZS ICE, only car I ever sold for an upgrade

... see the wife in 15-20 years, and see if she buys another EV, as it will be my last car, unless I live to about 85 yrs old.

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[HighPriority]

36 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I bought a 2006 Toyota Vios about 7 years ago. 83,000 km on the odometer, 230,000 baht. It's worth about 80,000 baht now, more to me. It now has about 100,000 more in km, and has never missed a beat. My mechanic says it may expire at about 400,000 km. It will probably outlast me easily.

How much depreciation do you think your EV will undergo in 7 years? What is stupid, me buying a vehicle of known reliability, which almost any mechanic in Thailand can diagnose and service, or you shelling out upwards of 800K baht for a vehicle whose servicing infrastructure and replacement parts inventory are unknown quantities?

I’d have thought a vehicle that essentially doesn’t need servicing would be a winner, but that’s just me…

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, HighPriority said:

I’d have thought a vehicle that essentially doesn’t need servicing would be a winner, but that’s just me…

These EV's must be miraculous if they don't need brake fluid, wheel bearing maintenance, steering hydraulics, brake linings and tyres.

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

There's a very good reason an EV owner would not buy another ICE. It would shoot down their false virtue signalling in flames.

 

I don't mind taking the advice of an experienced EV owner. I certainly don't want the advice of a biased one.

I don’t think many EV owners are virtue signalling, especially if it was made in China where we know Muslims are locked up, convicts are killed and their organs sold or prisoners are used to make commercial products.

 

I am sure the average EV owner has given some thought to range anxiety, batteries catching fire and other issues. But we have considered the risks and decided to take that risk.

 

When we bought ICE cars we had similar worries about different things. I had a sports car that was a supercharged V8 and it knocked on startup until the oil was flowing.  I sold it before the warranty was up because I worried about it.

 

There are always concerns but it’s about understanding them and making an informed decision.