New tax era in Thailand begins as Revenue now shares data with 138 countries within the OECD

[pattaya1234was]

22 hours ago, jayboy said:

It must have been intensely irritating.How much notice did they give you?

 

I don't fully get why these big banks which market themselves to British expatriates become so unreliable when British expatriates actually want to use their services.There must be many British expats who have no UK address but need the services of a UK bank eg to finance costs on visits back to the UK, receive pension and other payments, make payments to UK based contacts, service standing orders for health insurance etc etc.

They did give about 6 months notice. I managed to get a 3moth extension in view of the fact that I was visiting the UK for 10 days-that's long enough!. They did not tell me about the extension but have since been sending SMS's which cannot be replied to. So visiting the UK now will have to be with cash in hand. My Thai bank debit card needs a 6 digit PIN wheras UK cards need 4 digits. I was able to withdraw cash inside a Barclays branch office but the card was not appreciated at service areas  on the M 4. Booking a Uber taxi is now impossible and so it goes on.

[shdmn]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

If you refuse to post links to support your assumptions  and refuse to stop calling assumptions fact, your posts will be removed. I file a tax return here every year which includes overseas pension income and I pay tax on them in Thailand. 

Why don't you post your links that say they are going to be taxed?

 

Let's start with this one.  I can't be bothered to watch whole video again to give you the exact time stamps so you will just have to watch it yourself.

 

 

Or this one.

 

 

Edited January 15 by shdmn

[Des1]

omg .. i dropped off for a couple of days .... I can't keep up now.

Take a breath, it will all be sorted out. I hope.

[Rimmer]

Some unattributed posts and replies have been removed, please always try to post a bona fide link on news topics in order to avoid confusion, Thank you.

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Why don't you post your links that say they are going to be taxed?

 

Let's start with this one.  I can't be bothered to watch whole video again to give you the exact time stamps so you will just have to watch it yourself.

 

 

Or this one.

 

 

In trying to help AN members understand what will be required of the new tax system, a document has been produced that attempts to explain the Personal Income Tax system as simply as possible and this is linked below. The document explains that much is unknown and uncertain about the precise nature and format of the new rules, eg. what items from will be taxed, made exempt, what blanket rules will exist etc. Where facts are known, these are set out in the document, where things are not known, they are listed at the end of the document, awaiting further input from the Revenue Dept.

 

Some of the things that are known at present include the fact that US Social Security payments, a form of old old age pension, is exempt by Treaty and cannot be taxed in Thailand. Conversely, the UK State Pension is not exempt from Thai tax under the dual tax treaty and can be taxed, UNLESS, a rule is introduced that confirms pension income received from countries that have a DTA with Thailand, will be excluded. At this stage, no such rule has been formally announced.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/#comments

[topt]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:01 AM, jayboy said:

It must have been intensely irritating.How much notice did they give you?

 

I don't fully get why these big banks which market themselves to British expatriates become so unreliable when British expatriates actually want to use their services.There must be many British expats who have no UK address but need the services of a UK bank eg to finance costs on visits back to the UK, receive pension and other payments, make payments to UK based contacts, service standing orders for health insurance etc etc.

Not sure where you are from but I was never aware of UK onshore banks marketing themselves to expats. In fact most of the "big banks" as you call them, as well as some smaller ones, have a separate off shore presence specifically for expats and others who need those services. 

 

Most UK banks have clauses about being resident and or UK addresses in their Ts and Cs. Whilst I don't disagree with you that many need the services of a UK bank the offshore subsidiaries can perform that role all be it at a cost....

 

Unfortunately for the poster you replied to Barclays have specifically stated not that long ago that, after a review, they would be closing many of the accounts where residence was not in the UK.

One article -

 https://www.retailbankerinternational.com/news/barclays-to-close-thousands-of-expats-accounts/?cf-view

 

I just consider myself fortunate to be with another bank but who knows........

[DonniePeverley]

At the risk of wafting through 15 pages - can someone give me a summary of whats going on. 

[jayboy]

52 minutes ago, topt said:

In fact most of the "big banks" as you call them, as well as some smaller ones, have a separate off shore presence specifically for expats and others who need those services

 

That is in fact what I was referring to, the separate offshore presences - usually based in the Channel Islands.I assumed the original poster was referring to Barclay's equivalent.

 

Having said that my feeling is that even these off shore entities flirt with debanking customers who don't measure up for one reason or another.

[Adumbration]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:42 PM, sirineou said:

Thank you for that clarification

Our IO in Khon Kaen is also very reasonable and helpful , unlike some of the horror stories that I read from others at other locations, it is actuary a pleasure to work with them here,I bet they would also be acomonationg. I will give them a call and ask.

I am also in the same mindframe as you, who knows what else they will come up in the next month, especially in view of the new tax situation,

So I better get while the getting is good,

 

Just reporting back as promised to bump this thread.  @sirineou I did my non O extension this week 45 days early.  Exactly the same documents as last year.  No mention of tax issues whatsoever.  Also did a residency certificate.  Only changes this year was that they had 3 cute young university girls on work experience in the office.  I managed to make one of them blush.

 

There was some arrogant Russian plonker there who was unaware of the online booking system.  He barged in front of everyone and ranted to the head IO.  That two people had been served before him.  The head IO made short work of him as expected.  In all my visits to this office I have never seen a single Russian customer.  Most of the people waiting this year were Russians.  Must be a *hitload of them here now.  They are migrating up my way now is search of affordable (or available?) accommodation now that Phuket is full up.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

There has been a lot of discussion about if and when Retired/Married Expats (RMEs) have to lodge a tax return in this 'new tax era' of the Thai Revenue Department (TRD)  IMO the vast majority will not need to lodge a tax return - but as always it is best to get your own legal/financial advice on this and any other taxation matter or opinion. 

 

I have been researching and discussing this 'new tax era' since it was first announced in September 2023.  I am still extremely annoyed that Thailand could even think about taxing RMEs, but my initial thoughts that this would screw over all RMEs has turned out to be not as bad as I first thought.

 

Firstly - all Expats who work or own a business in Thailand have to lodge a tax return - my comments below only applies to RMEs who do not work or own a business in Thailand. 

 

The reason I say most RMEs do not need to lodge a tax return, is because my read of the Thai Revenue Code, is that it specifically states that 'assessable income' means 'taxable income'. IMO assessable income is not all the money brought into Thailand, but it is the specific money brought into Thailand that is taxable - and there are lots of exclusions and exemptions.  Therefore IMO if your pension is already taxed (enough to cover any Thai taxes) and/or it is not taxable under a DTA, then it is not taxable income when it is remitted into Thailand. Additionally, all savings from past earnings before 1 Jan 2024, are not taxable income as clearly stated by the Thai Revenue Department.

 

However, IMO any income earned overseas after 1 Jan 2024, from sources such as property rental, investments, etc., is taxable income, and if you bring more than 120K Baht of that type of money into Thailand, then you need to lodge a tax return.  That does not mean you have to pay taxes on that amount - it means you add it all up and then claim whatever allowances and deductions are available. In a separate thread it is detailed how a married Expat over a certain age can get about 500K in deductions - this is something that you must either calculate yourself (and keep records) or get a tax accountant/expert to do that for you. 

 

There is no advice yet from TRD about what happens when a person has non-taxable savings overseas and that money earns interest - and then a portion of the total amount is remitted into Thailand. Obviously it is not all taxable (only the interest portion) - but how much of that interest is actually remitted when only say 10% of the total amount is remitted. Likewise, there are many other 'complications' that until now was not needed to be clarified - which is according to many Thai pundits, why the original rule was in place for almost 30 years (too complicated). 

 

IMO this 'new tax era' is a broadening of the existing tax laws to catch out those people and businesses who have been making money overseas (that is taxable), and then bringing that money back into Thailand in the following tax year, when it is not taxable. Certainy that has implications for Expats whose money being brought into Thailand is from working/earnings overseas, but IMO for the vast majotrty it has no 'deliberate' affect - note the work deliberate.

 

Aside from the potential to be 'audited' in the future, and then fined and severely penalised for not lodging a tax return when TRD thinks you should have, I have one main concern for those RMEs who genuinely believe (like me) that they will not have to pay income taxes. That decision is soley at the decision of the TRD, and if the TRD ever (now or in the future) decide you have to pay income taxes, proving that you dont will be extremely difficult and expensive. TRD is not the Immigration Police - they do not have decades of experience in dealing with Expats, they dont speak much English, they operate only in Thai when appealed/challenged, and they have just as many (if not more) 'diifcult' officials, and they are extremely powerful - they can get you arrested, detained and deported.  While some people have had positive interactions, I personally know 2 people who were 'audited' by TRD (businesses) and it was extremely difficult - without the benefit of a Thai speaking wife/business partner they would have been in serious trouble. A I said right up front, the thing that really worries me about this new tax era is Somchai in the local TRD saying - 'you bring 1 million baht, you pay tax'. 

[sirineou]

9 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

 

Just reporting back as promised to bump this thread.  @sirineou I did my non O extension this week 45 days early.  Exactly the same documents as last year.  No mention of tax issues whatsoever.  Also did a residency certificate.  Only changes this year was that they had 3 cute young university girls on work experience in the office.  I managed to make one of them blush.

 

There was some arrogant Russian plonker there who was unaware of the online booking system.  He barged in front of everyone and ranted to the head IO.  That two people had been served before him.  The head IO made short work of him as expected.  In all my visits to this office I have never seen a single Russian customer.  Most of the people waiting this year were Russians.  Must be a *hitload of them here now.  They are migrating up my way now is search of affordable (or available?) accommodation now that Phuket is full up.

 

Thank you for that, I appreciate your report. 

I took your advice and also did my one year extension last week, and confirm that nothing had changed.

I wanted to post a reply and report my experience but I could not find your post and could not remember the thread title.  I did a search with no success, the search function in this forum at best. sucks vacuum

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Aside from the potential to be 'audited' in the future, and then fined and severely penalised for not lodging a tax return when TRD thinks you should have,

You can't be penalized for not lodging a tax return in Thailand.

You will be fined only if tax was due and you didn't pay.

[Adumbration]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

Thank you for that, I appreciate your report. 

I took your advice and also did my one year extension last week, and confirm that nothing had changed.

I wanted to post a reply and report my experience but I could not find your post and could not remember the thread title.  I did a search with no success, the search function in this forum at best. sucks vacuum

 

My success at Immigration confirms my proposed strategy regarding taxation.

 

I will be doing absolutely nothing in relation to the new laws, unless and Thai authority tells me to.

 

My only interaction with government is Immigration year in year out.

 

I already have enough money here to last me about a decade.

 

I will not transfer a satang more here until the smoke clears.

 

I was going to buy some more houses and land.  But that is cancelled now.  So too is any new vehicle purchase.

 

[Adumbration]

33 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You can't be penalized for not lodging a tax return in Thailand.

You will be fined only if tax was due and you didn't pay.

I have never applied for Thai tax ID.  I already pay tax on my Thai share dividends and on my bank interest.  It is witheld at the relevant rates.  I am here to avoid paperwork so for me I just let them have it.

 

Only thing they could tax me on is if I transfer money in from abroad.  But how would it be even possible to determine if this is income (taxable) or just savings.  This whole thing is like most Thai government (new ideas).  They have zero competency to implement and so it will just fall by the wayside.  Just like land taxation, helmet laws, drunk driven....et al...

[TroubleandGrumpy]

8 hours ago, Yumthai said:

You can't be penalized for not lodging a tax return in Thailand.

You will be fined only if tax was due and you didn't pay.

My understanding was that not lodging a tax return when a tax payment is due, is penalised in Thailand with a 2000 Baht fine per event, plus 2% per month interest charges for all unpaid taxes, and if they decide you deliberately avoided paying tax (tax evasion) the penalty is a 5000 Baht fine and 6 months in jail - per event.

 

If you have some reference or link that officially states otherwise please let me/us know. If you Google 'penalty for not lodging tax returns in Thailand' there are numerous websites providing details - not all the same amounts (as usual in Thailand).  

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

My understanding was that not lodging a tax return when a tax payment is due, is penalised in Thailand with a 2000 Baht fine per event, plus 2% per month interest charges for all unpaid taxes, and if they decide you deliberately avoided paying tax (tax evasion) the penalty is a 5000 Baht fine and 6 months in jail - per event.

 

If you have some reference or link that officially states otherwise please let me/us know. If you Google 'penalty for not lodging tax returns in Thailand' there are numerous websites providing details - not all the same amounts (as usual in Thailand).  

He's saying the same thing, it's just written differently.

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

My understanding was that not lodging a tax return when a tax payment is due, is penalised in Thailand with a 2000 Baht fine per event, plus 2% per month interest charges for all unpaid taxes, and if they decide you deliberately avoided paying tax (tax evasion) the penalty is a 5000 Baht fine and 6 months in jail - per event.

 

If you have some reference or link that officially states otherwise please let me/us know. If you Google 'penalty for not lodging tax returns in Thailand' there are numerous websites providing details - not all the same amounts (as usual in Thailand).  

 

https://sherrings.com/tax-evasion-in-thailand.html

 

The 2,000 Baht fine you mention relates to tax evasion: "Filing false return to evade tax" or "Not filing return to evade tax".

It is implied tax is due. How could you evade tax is no tax is owed?

 

Official information from the Revenue Department:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37745.html

 

I suggest researching (Ctrl+F) the terms "fine", "surcharge" on the page.

 

Section 18 Ter Subject to Section 18 Bis, in the case where an assessment official has made tax assessment, a person liable to tax shall pay such tax with fine and surcharge under the provisions of this Chapter within 30 days from the date of receiving the assessment.

 

Section 20 After proceeding with Section 19, an assessment official shall have the power to adjust an amount of assessed tax or an amount calculated in the tax return base on evidence and shall notify the amount of tax payable to the person liable to tax. In this case, after such person has been notified, the assessment may be appealed.

 

Section 21 If a person liable to tax does not comply with the summons or order of an assessment official under Section 19 or does not answer questions without justifiable reason, an assessment official may assess the amount of tax to the best of his knowledge and notify the amount of tax payable to a person liable to tax. In this case, the assessment shall not be appealed.

 

Section 22 In the assessment under Sections 20 or 21, a person liable to tax shall be liable to fine equal to the amount of tax payable.

 

Section 26 Unless stated otherwise in this Title, in the case of an assessment under Sections 24 or 25, a person liable to tax shall be liable to fine double the amount of tax payable.

 

Section 27 A person failing to pay or remit tax within the time limit prescribed in various Chapters of this Title regarding assessment of tax, shall pay surcharge of 1.5 per cent per month or part of a month of an amount of tax payable or remittable excluding fine.

 

In the case where a Director-General extends the time limit for tax payment or tax remittance, and the tax is paid or remitted within the extended time, the surcharge under paragraph 1 shall be reduced to 0.75 per cent per month or part of a month.

 

The calculation of surcharge under paragraphs 1 and 2 shall begin from the day after the last day of the time limit for tax return filing or tax remittance until the date of tax payment or remittance. However, the amount of surcharge shall not exceed the amount of tax payable or remittable whether or not the amount of tax payable or remittable arising from the assessment or order of an official or decision of Commission of Appeal or Court decision.

 

Section 27 Bis Fine under Sections 22 and 26, and surcharge under Section 27 shall be deemed tax.

 

Fine under paragraph 1 may be waived or reduced in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director-General with an approval from the Minister. Such regulations shall be published in the Royal Gazette.

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23517.html

 

A taxpayer has the duty to file his tax return and pay proper taxes on time. Should he fail to do so, he will be subject to fine and surcharge on top of the tax due.  (It is implied tax is due.)

 

A taxpayer has the following duties : File tax returns and pay proper tax.  (It is implied tax is due.)

 

 

https://www.thephoenixcapitalgroup.com/the-aftermath-of-not-paying-taxes-on-time/

 

Penalties and Surcharge for Personal Income Taxpayers

 

There are two reasons for imposing penalty- filing of inaccurate return and failure to file a return. The penalty rates are as follows:

100% if tax return filed is inaccurate

200% if tax return is not filed

 

The penalty rate may be reduced to 50% if the taxpayer submits a written request to consider and if the assessment officer deems that the taxpayer has no intention of evading tax liabilities and cooperated with the assessment officer during audit.

In addition to the penalty, a person or individual who fails to remit tax payment within the specified time will be imposed a surcharge of 1.5% per month, or fraction thereof, of the taxable total amount subject to a maximum amount equal to the amount of tax to be paid.

 

100% of what? 200% of what?

Answer: of the tax owed amount.

 

My understanding is that fines/penalties arise when, and only when, tax is due as written or implied everywhere in the revenue code.

I found nowhere any fine to pay for just not lodging a tax return when no tax is owed.

 

Again, to each their own interpretation.

 

[Presnock]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:20 PM, CashMoon said:

 

I have 500 acres of citrus garden. We do not file taxes for our earnings. Since we are farmers, we are exempt from taxes up to a certain limit. Most of our savings in the bank were inherited. It is currently being processed in investment funds. This law has become a bit complicated for me. 

I earned my earnings legally, tax-free, in my homeland. Can they tax me here because I don't pay taxes in my home country?

 

That is what they said at the beginning "all" income remitted into Thailand, then as reality started checking in from within and from without, DTA's etc, watching other ASEAN countries how they are handling it etc.  But if you don't pay taxes on your income in your native state due to a national law included in the DTA, I am pretty sure they will try to make you pay here.  It will all boil down to possible law cases against them as well as so many not actually making any "assessible" income for them to count on.  None of us knows for sure what the outcome will be nor when it will become clearer so just hang in there and enjoy whatever you moved to Thailand for.  

[Presnock]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:04 AM, jerrymahoney said:

It doesn't say that. However, if it is less than 100 million baht, doesn't matter anyway.

 

But there are other opinions:

 

Relations Between Inheritance Tax and the New Thai Tax Law
 

Receiving Inheritance from Overseas and Bringing it to Thailand

 

Any individual holding Thai citizenship or a Thai resident residing for 180 days or more who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand is subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

In contrast, an individual who is not a Thai resident (residing 180 days or less), who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand, is not subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relations-between-inheritance-tax-and-the-new-thai-tax-law/

 

On 1/12/2024 at 8:48 AM, pattaya1234was said:

Thank you. They say that if I do not reply they will give the Thai RD any information they have about me. On 31st Dec. my balance was 150 pounds; a week later 0 pounds. Nothing very interesting there for any RD !

IF inheriting a few big $$$ and retirement eligible, just opt for a LTR visa, 50,000 k and then no taxes, no 90-day reports etc.   and all legal

[CashMoon]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

That is what they said at the beginning "all" income remitted into Thailand, then as reality started checking in from within and from without, DTA's etc, watching other ASEAN countries how they are handling it etc.  But if you don't pay taxes on your income in your native state due to a national law included in the DTA, I am pretty sure they will try to make you pay here.  It will all boil down to possible law cases against them as well as so many not actually making any "assessible" income for them to count on.  None of us knows for sure what the outcome will be nor when it will become clearer so just hang in there and enjoy whatever you moved to Thailand for.  

 

I live in Thailand but I think I'm eliminated. Even if I am tax-free in my own country, I have to pay tax here. Let me briefly explain the summary of this law as follows. We reduced our expenses to almost 1/3, even though we didn't plan on staying more than 180. I have nearly 20 friends and 8 of them, including me, decided to move to Bali. The 12 people who could not move could not move due to their work and family. We are moving before our 180 days are up. There's nothing to say damn it.  

 

Let me leave a small note here about the horror of the law. This law prevented a little person like me from investing $200k. I wonder how many million or billion dollars of investments will it prevent? 

[Presnock]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:44 AM, Mike Lister said:

I'll bet you a beer.

yeah and at the same time those broadcasters of the meetings and at least one article in the Thai Examiner indicate that there are still some fairly strong Thai that are against this new tax policy as originally stated.  However, since the initial reports of that, I have not seen anything at all from them or those against the new program nor anything of substance either.  It is great that a couple of folks have researched official documentation and have provide us with that material so that we can formulate possible actions based on what the RD/Govt finally decides which might not be until next March 2025.  Enjoy whatever we came here for until the deadlines are met.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

 

https://sherrings.com/tax-evasion-in-thailand.html

 

The 2,000 Baht fine you mention relates to tax evasion: "Filing false return to evade tax" or "Not filing return to evade tax".

It is implied tax is due. How could you evade tax is no tax is owed?

 

Official information from the Revenue Department:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37745.html

 

I suggest researching (Ctrl+F) the terms "fine", "surcharge" on the page.

 

Section 18 Ter Subject to Section 18 Bis, in the case where an assessment official has made tax assessment, a person liable to tax shall pay such tax with fine and surcharge under the provisions of this Chapter within 30 days from the date of receiving the assessment.

 

Section 20 After proceeding with Section 19, an assessment official shall have the power to adjust an amount of assessed tax or an amount calculated in the tax return base on evidence and shall notify the amount of tax payable to the person liable to tax. In this case, after such person has been notified, the assessment may be appealed.

 

Section 21 If a person liable to tax does not comply with the summons or order of an assessment official under Section 19 or does not answer questions without justifiable reason, an assessment official may assess the amount of tax to the best of his knowledge and notify the amount of tax payable to a person liable to tax. In this case, the assessment shall not be appealed.

 

Section 22 In the assessment under Sections 20 or 21, a person liable to tax shall be liable to fine equal to the amount of tax payable.

 

Section 26 Unless stated otherwise in this Title, in the case of an assessment under Sections 24 or 25, a person liable to tax shall be liable to fine double the amount of tax payable.

 

Section 27 A person failing to pay or remit tax within the time limit prescribed in various Chapters of this Title regarding assessment of tax, shall pay surcharge of 1.5 per cent per month or part of a month of an amount of tax payable or remittable excluding fine.

 

In the case where a Director-General extends the time limit for tax payment or tax remittance, and the tax is paid or remitted within the extended time, the surcharge under paragraph 1 shall be reduced to 0.75 per cent per month or part of a month.

 

The calculation of surcharge under paragraphs 1 and 2 shall begin from the day after the last day of the time limit for tax return filing or tax remittance until the date of tax payment or remittance. However, the amount of surcharge shall not exceed the amount of tax payable or remittable whether or not the amount of tax payable or remittable arising from the assessment or order of an official or decision of Commission of Appeal or Court decision.

 

Section 27 Bis Fine under Sections 22 and 26, and surcharge under Section 27 shall be deemed tax.

 

Fine under paragraph 1 may be waived or reduced in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director-General with an approval from the Minister. Such regulations shall be published in the Royal Gazette.

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23517.html

 

A taxpayer has the duty to file his tax return and pay proper taxes on time. Should he fail to do so, he will be subject to fine and surcharge on top of the tax due.  (It is implied tax is due.)

 

A taxpayer has the following duties : File tax returns and pay proper tax.  (It is implied tax is due.)

 

 

https://www.thephoenixcapitalgroup.com/the-aftermath-of-not-paying-taxes-on-time/

 

Penalties and Surcharge for Personal Income Taxpayers

 

There are two reasons for imposing penalty- filing of inaccurate return and failure to file a return. The penalty rates are as follows:

100% if tax return filed is inaccurate

200% if tax return is not filed

 

The penalty rate may be reduced to 50% if the taxpayer submits a written request to consider and if the assessment officer deems that the taxpayer has no intention of evading tax liabilities and cooperated with the assessment officer during audit.

In addition to the penalty, a person or individual who fails to remit tax payment within the specified time will be imposed a surcharge of 1.5% per month, or fraction thereof, of the taxable total amount subject to a maximum amount equal to the amount of tax to be paid.

 

100% of what? 200% of what?

Answer: of the tax owed amount.

 

My understanding is that fines/penalties arise when, and only when, tax is due as written or implied everywhere in the revenue code.

I found nowhere any fine to pay for just not lodging a tax return when no tax is owed.

Again, to each their own interpretation.

That is an excellent post - thank you for the detailed information - very much appreciated.  I hope that your post has shown people how serious this thing could be. As I have said many times before - Al Capone found out the hard way just how serious the Tax Dept can be.   

 

I will however state that it was 'implied' in my statement/s that tax was due. Let me explain - which I should have done in my post more clearly. If someone (you/me) calculates that they have no income taxes to pay (savings, DTA, allowances, etc) and does not lodge a tax return because of that, BUT Somchai at the local TRD Office does a check and audits you and decides you should have paid income taxes - and you cannot convince him that you did not - there is serious fines and penalties involved.

 

My advice is meant to say that this is a very serious issue - dont panic - but dont ignore it either. It is not a slap on the wrist like a traffic breach or an incorrect/missing form. When any tax office in the world looks into someone who they think did not pay taxes, they are not mucking around. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

23 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

IF inheriting a few big $$$ and retirement eligible, just opt for a LTR visa, 50,000 k and then no taxes, no 90-day reports etc.   and all legal

IMO the Thai RD has not yet responded to the BOI request to clarify whether LTR Visa holders are still exempt under this new rule. 

 

It is also MO that it is in breach of the stated aims of the OECD/CRS to stop money laundering, terrorist fundings and criminal activities, by Thailand offering people a 'special' Visa that they can buy and thus avoid all the stated aims of OECD/CRS.

 

We will never know, but IMO the Thai RD have received a LOT of this type of 'request for clarification' from many sources inside and outside Thailand.  When Malaysia looked to implement this 'new rule' they announbced it and delayed implementation for 5 years because it was far moe complicated than they had initiqally thought.

 

Malaysia Delays Implementation Of Worldwide Tax Regime | Croner-i Tax and Accounting (croneri.co.uk)

 

All Govts and Bureacracies worldwide are looking for more taxes follwing their Covid economic disaster, during which all of them kept their jobs. 

[jonclark]

I guess the elephant in the room now will be if the retirement / married extension of 800'000 is going to be a gross or net figure in the future? 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

32 minutes ago, CashMoon said:

 

I live in Thailand but I think I'm eliminated. Even if I am tax-free in my own country, I have to pay tax here. Let me briefly explain the summary of this law as follows. We reduced our expenses to almost 1/3, even though we didn't plan on staying more than 180. I have nearly 20 friends and 8 of them, including me, decided to move to Bali. The 12 people who could not move could not move due to their work and family. We are moving before our 180 days are up. There's nothing to say damn it.  

 

Let me leave a small note here about the horror of the law. This law prevented a little person like me from investing $200k. I wonder how many million or billion dollars of investments will it prevent? 

I hear you mate - and understand.  We too are looking at Bali as one of the potential places to move to if this thing goes 'belly up'. We intend to stay as long as possible this year and see how things go - hopefully they will follow Malaysia's lead and delay implementation for 5 years.

 

This year for us (and many others) is going to be a test. I brought in extra funds before end Decmber last year, and this year it will only be the pension coming in - with clear documented proof. If I have to pay taxes on that in 2025 - or if during 2024 it becomes very clear that I will have to pay taxes in 2025 - then we are out of here.  We have a detailed busget going out to 2037 and in that time we plan to bring into Thailand about 15 Million Baht - if/when we leave that will be gone. Now I know in the scheme of things that is not much - but when you consider 300K Expats and say half leave because of income taxes be imposed - that is an amount of money they should not be 'throwing away'.

 

I too know a few single blokes living in/around Pattaya - most of them are looking where to move to if their pensions are going to be taxed - plus many are just sick of all the khrapp they have to go though just to stay here - and now being forced to pay income taxes measn they are looking elsewhere. Philippines, Indonesia (Bali) - but maybe Vietnam or Cambodia (if/when they implement fair and resonable retirement Visas). Plus then they can visit Thailand very cheaply - and staying less than 180 days in total here means no income taxes.    

 

[CashMoon]

48 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you mate - and understand.  We too are looking at Bali as one of the potential places to move to if this thing goes 'belly up'. We intend to stay as long as possible this year and see how things go - hopefully they will follow Malaysia's lead and delay implementation for 5 years.

 

This year for us (and many others) is going to be a test. I brought in extra funds before end Decmber last year, and this year it will only be the pension coming in - with clear documented proof. If I have to pay taxes on that in 2025 - or if during 2024 it becomes very clear that I will have to pay taxes in 2025 - then we are out of here.  We have a detailed busget going out to 2037 and in that time we plan to bring into Thailand about 15 Million Baht - if/when we leave that will be gone. Now I know in the scheme of things that is not much - but when you consider 300K Expats and say half leave because of income taxes be imposed - that is an amount of money they should not be 'throwing away'.

 

I too know a few single blokes living in/around Pattaya - most of them are looking where to move to if their pensions are going to be taxed - plus many are just sick of all the khrapp they have to go though just to stay here - and now being forced to pay income taxes measn they are looking elsewhere. Philippines, Indonesia (Bali) - but maybe Vietnam or Cambodia (if/when they implement fair and resonable retirement Visas). Plus then they can visit Thailand very cheaply - and staying less than 180 days in total here means no income taxes.    

 

The point that saddens me is;  i started to plan to escape from the lands where i wanted to live until i died. I love Thailand very much, but now it's really starting to upset my psychology. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, CashMoon said:

The point that saddens me is;  i started to plan to escape from the lands where i wanted to live until i died. I love Thailand very much, but now it's really starting to upset my psychology. 

I feel that too - I married a Thai and also intended to die here.  I am upset by all this, but my wife is 'ropeable'.  She is seriously annoyed that they would try to impose income taxes on my money, and is adamant that 'those corrupt HiSos will not get any of your/our money'. She and all her family have never paid income taxes in their lives - just like the majority of Thais. She has always only every paid the tax that we all pay - VAT - and she says that is enough.  She remembers when VAT started (at 10%) in 1990s and all the complaints made them reduce it to 7%. Thais have since then reluctantly accepted that VAT is the means by which the Thai Govt gets some of their money (and then wastes most of it on corrupted 'deals' and khrapp like submarines, street lamps, etc etc etc). 

 

[Expat68]

11 hours ago, CashMoon said:

 

I live in Thailand but I think I'm eliminated. Even if I am tax-free in my own country, I have to pay tax here. Let me briefly explain the summary of this law as follows. We reduced our expenses to almost 1/3, even though we didn't plan on staying more than 180. I have nearly 20 friends and 8 of them, including me, decided to move to Bali. The 12 people who could not move could not move due to their work and family. We are moving before our 180 days are up. There's nothing to say damn it.  

 

Let me leave a small note here about the horror of the law. This law prevented a little person like me from investing $200k. I wonder how many million or billion dollars of investments will it prevent? 

Tax changes within Thailand are going to change massively (Fact) Is this going to effect expats no!! I have two friends who are married to thais who work in the inland revenue, they have half a ream of paperwork to study (if you do not how much this is Google it!!) They have both said this will not have any effect on expats. Stop all this bull<deleted>!!

 

 

 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, Expat68 said:

Tax changes within Thailand are going to change massively (Fact) Is this going to effect expats no!! I have two friends who are married to thais who work in the inland revenue, they have half a ream of paperwork to study (if you do not how much this is Google it!!) They have both said this will not have any effect on expats. Stop all this bull<deleted>!!

Very dubious advice IMO - not that I disagree.   But taking tax advice from unknown random Thais? who work in the 'inland revenue' (it is called the Thailand Revenue Department), is IMO not a wise thing to do. There are many vloggers and tax consultants in Thailand who have said everything from 'all Expats must now pay taxes' to 'no affect on Expats'.  But they all say one same thing - lets wait until the TRD provides full clarity and all the exemptions in how they will manage this new tax era.   I hope you/they are right - but I aint leaving it at that until I know for sure.  The last TRD 'clarification' attempt in November, lead to even more questions and complaints, so they have 'closed doors' and are working through the issues. The TRD probably want to delay implementation like Malaysia did, but it is clear that the PM/Govt wants more income taxes paid. 

[Gknrd]

So basically you sell your house in the US. Build a house in Thailand. The wife or girlfriend kicks you out , you loose the house then have to pay tax on the money that built the house... hahaha.

You just thought you had heard some horror stories before, just wait...