Despite U.S. pressure, the idea of a Palestinian state seems farther away than ever

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Do you mean the Yasser Arafat who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994? 

Not before this episode.

 

 Israel PM Ehud Barak offered Arafat a series of far-reaching concessions as part of a comprehensive peace arrangement. In return, Arafat was asked to end the conflict. The PLO summarily rejected the Israeli proposals and never offered a counterproposal. Instead, the PLO-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) initiated a massive premeditated wave of violence. Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered.

https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/#

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I suppose the Zionists could have various sub-factions that have different ideas as to how to succeed in the "development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel." I've never heard of any that would accept a two-state solution. If there are, I hope they start speaking up more firmly, especially right now when the negotiations for a temporary ceasefire and return of some hostages/prisoners are being discussed.

That's painfully stupid.

Do you think Yitzhak Rabin wasn't a Zionist? 

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not before this episode.

 

 Israel PM Ehud Barak offered Arafat a series of far-reaching concessions as part of a comprehensive peace arrangement. In return, Arafat was asked to end the conflict. The PLO summarily rejected the Israeli proposals and never offered a counterproposal. Instead, the PLO-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) initiated a massive premeditated wave of violence. Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered.

https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/#

"Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered."

I guess that's no longer "unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its... attacks on ...civilians." it's now estimated that over 30,000 have been killed in Gaza, or 20,000 civilians if you assume about 1/3 of those were actual Hamas militants. 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered."

I guess that's no longer "unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its... attacks on ...civilians." it's now estimated that over 30,000 have been killed in Gaza, or 20,000 civilians if you assume about 1/3 of those were actual Hamas militants. 

Well considering this was about 2 state solutions. The point is Israel does not carry all the blame as another poster suggested

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered."

I guess that's no longer "unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its... attacks on ...civilians." it's now estimated that over 30,000 have been killed in Gaza, or 20,000 civilians if you assume about 1/3 of those were actual Hamas militants. 

Only a fifth of the Chinese killed in WW2 were combatants, so a third seems acceptable. 

[ThaiFelix]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:23 PM, Bkk Brian said:

No  comment on the Hamas terrorist's statement then?

 

The population in prison camps?

 

 

 

A one day killing and raping spree?  Are you for real?

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Well considering this was about 2 state solutions. The point is Israel does not carry all the blame as another poster suggested

Oh, I agree with that! Both sides, IMO, are to blame. Neither side's right-wing, nationalistic factions want anything but a one-state solution. But now, hopefully, with pressure from the UN (and the US), they will try to come up with some kind of two-state solution that will be, if not "desireable," at least "tolerable" for both.

[WDSmart]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Only a fifth of the Chinese killed in WW2 were combatants, so a third seems acceptable. 

No! Many people here have a flawed logic. They think that because some historical events were violent and unjust, and the victors wrote the history books, we should accept them now. That is wrong. For instance, in the history of my country, our ancestors killed many native Indians. We also dropped two atomic bombs on Japan to end the war faster and claimed that it was a "life-saving" decision. That was a terrible thing to do, and we should never condone it now.

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, ThaiFelix said:

A one day killing and raping spree?  Are you for real?

Who are you talking to?

[Yellowtail]

32 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No! Many people here have a flawed logic. They think that because some historical events were violent and unjust, and the victors wrote the history books, we should accept them now. That is wrong. For instance, in the history of my country, our ancestors killed many native Indians. We also dropped two atomic bombs on Japan to end the war faster and claimed that it was a "life-saving" decision. That was a terrible thing to do, and we should never condone it now.

Four Iraqi civilians for every one combatant. How many civilian casualties do you think are acceptable in a war? 

 

[WDSmart]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Four Iraqi civilians for every one combatant. How many civilian casualties do you think are acceptable in a war? 

 

None.

[scottiejohn]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Four Iraqi civilians for every one combatant. How many civilian casualties do you think are acceptable in a war? 

 

Are you suggesting that atrocities/wars should be scored like a league table?

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

You're missing understanding what Zionism is.

 

Pretty sure I just quoted from a book to explain what I think it is. Where is this church of zionism?

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

That's painfully stupid.

Do you think Yitzhak Rabin wasn't a Zionist? 

 

He was raised in a zionist family and did ascribe to a homeland. The modern zionist movement is to the old one what the modern GOP is to the old one. Rabin was a realist, totally unlike the take all at any cost zealots that run Israel now.

 

Rabin would not let Israel slide into a binational reality — one state for two people — the antithesis of a Jewish and democratic homeland. These were the twin engines of Zionism that he fought to safeguard. Only partitioning the land, which later became known as the two-state solution, would do this.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yitzhak-rabin-was-always-a-realist-how-would-he-have-handled-the-2020-mideast/

 

btw: Did a zionist shoot Rabin or not?

 

 

Edited March 4 by ozimoron

[Yellowtail]

26 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Are you suggesting that atrocities/wars should be scored like a league table?

No

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

None.

Then you should be calling for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. 

[WDSmart]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Then you should be calling for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. 

I could call for that, but Hamas will not listen to me. I could also call for Israel to implement a ceasefire, but they will not listen to me either. The hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. They will not release them without receiving something in return. Military superiority is the main bargaining chip Israel has. They, too, will not cease fire without receiving something in return.

I've detailed my suggestions on an agreement many times before, and I hope I am seeing something like what I've been suggesting starting to develop now. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but whatever happens will be in the next week, before Ramadan. 

[Yellowtail]

38 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I could call for that, but Hamas will not listen to me. I could also call for Israel to implement a ceasefire, but they will not listen to me either. The hostages are the only bargaining chip Hamas has. They will not release them without receiving something in return. Military superiority is the main bargaining chip Israel has. They, too, will not cease fire without receiving something in return.

I've detailed my suggestions on an agreement many times before, and I hope I am seeing something like what I've been suggesting starting to develop now. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but whatever happens will be in the next week, before Ramadan. 

Well, let's hope Israel is able to eradicate Hamas as quickly as possible, while minimizing the number of civilian casualties.  

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

No

 I have removed my post as you posted just ahead of me!

 

Edited March 4 by scottiejohn

[scottiejohn]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Well, let's hope Israel is able to eradicate Hamas as quickly as possible, while minimizing the number of civilian casualties.  

For once I agree with you!

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Are you suggesting that atrocities/wars should be scored like a league table?

No

[ezzra]

From a UN findings of the 7th of October attack:

 

5. Information received by the mission team indicates that on the morning of 7 October 2023, at about 6:30 AM and under the cover of an unprecedented barrage of rockets, a coordinated attack by Hamas joined by other armed groups, which reportedly included the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, other armed elements and armed and unarmed civilians, breached the Gaza perimeter fence at multiple points, entered the Gaza periphery and attacked military and civilian targets, including surrounding villages and towns, music festivals 1 and adjacent roads. The complexity and modus operandi of the attacks, which seem to have occurred over three cumulative waves, appear to demonstrate a significant level of planning, coordination and detailed prior knowledge of the targets selected.

 

6. The attacks resulted in approximately 1,200 fatalities 2 and thousands of injuries, predominantly among civilians. Based on information reviewed by the team, people were shot, often at close range; burnt alive in their homes as they tried to hide in their safe rooms; gunned down or killed by grenades in bomb shelters where they sought refuge; and hunted down on the Nova music festival site as well as in the fields and roads adjacent to the festival ground. Other violations included sexual violence, abduction of hostages and corpses, the public display of captives, both dead and alive, the mutilation of corpses, including decapitation, and the looting and destruction of civilian property. A total of 253 individuals, including some deceased, were taken as hostages.

 

13. At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped. Credible sources described finding 5 murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were naked from their waist down – and some totally naked – tied with their hands behind their backs, many of whom were shot in the head. On Road 232, credible information based on witness accounts describe an incident of the rape of two women by armed elements. Other reported instances of rape could not be verified in the time allotted. The mission team also found a pattern of bound naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down, in some cases tied to structures including trees and poles, along Road 232. In kibbutz Re’im, the mission team further verified an incident of the rape of a woman outside of a bomb shelter and heard of other allegations of rape that could not yet be verified...

 

The full UN report here:

 

https://ynet-pic1.yit.co.il/picserver5/wcm_upload_files/2024/03/04/r1PKanXpp/20240304_Israel_oWB_CRSV_report.pdf

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, ezzra said:

The bottom line is that Israel will not going to give any land away, and for the Palestinian, right or wrong,

The problem with that is that the West Bank and Gaza land does not belong to israel. Didn't in 1947 and still doesn't. Israel illegally occupies stolen land, and there is no getting around that.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, WDSmart said:

And, I've suggested a third-party (like the UN) peacekeeping force be put into place to prevent or deal with agreement violations

I wouldn't bother with the UN. Their force in the north has been impotent to prevent the attacks from either side.

However, wherever it is formed from, it should have no American involvement, as they have proven themselves to be biased to israel and not to be trusted as an impartial force.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:04 PM, Skipalongcassidy said:

There will never be a two state solution because muslims will never stop hating and terrorizing... the koran requires jihad.

As you appear to consider yourself an authority on the Koran, perhaps you can quote the part that says a jihad is required against israel.

[ThaiFelix]

13 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Who are you talking to?

Those with the utterly gross exaggerations

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ThaiFelix said:

Those with the utterly gross exaggerations

What were? you need to clarify what I said or what you claim I said

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, WDSmart said:

The order of events is unclear, but the 100 people mentioned above were either shot or run over by trucks or the mob -- or all three. The gunshots were a crucial factor, as they not only took lives but also triggered the panic that made the trucks drive away and the crowds stampede, running over and trampling people in the process.
 

We seem to be having a case of "victim blaming" where trucks were running over people for no apparent reason other than they are Palestinians.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, ezzra said:

You'll want to know that not all Jews and Israelis are Zionists, so i call you post an inflammatory BS...

I can think of a few posters that do what you just said and they ain't on the Palestinian side.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, ezzra said:

Are you asking me as an Israeli or a Palestinian? I'm sure that some have died needlessly, but let's not forget

that there's a war raging on, not a garden party, and in such times, as a soldier, you're out there protecting

yourself in order to come out alive...

If it was the other way around I'm certain you wouldn't be so accepting of it.