Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

IMO, a REALLY "dumbed down and simple minded terms" would be Oct 7!

Incoherent statement.

Okay, how about... "IMO, I think it is really dumb and simple-minded to think that this entire conflict started on Oct 7. There is a lot more history behind the conflict than the horrible events that occurred on just that day." And most of the Israeli-supporters on this topic do just that. 

[Bkk Brian]

Regardless who's the political leader, the aims remain. 

 

Poll: 75% of Jewish Israelis back Rafah operation

A new poll finds that around three-quarters of Jewish Israelis support an expansion of IDF operations in Gaza’s southernmost city of Rafah, where more than half of the Strip’s 2.3 million people are sheltering in the area amid the ongoing war with Hamas, while two-thirds of Arab respondents disagree.

A political orientation breakdown in the Israel Democracy Institute survey shows that 45 percent of Jewish respondents who identify as left-wing support such a move, while the center and right-wing back it to a much greater extent.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, how about... "IMO, I think it is really dumb and simple-minded to think that this entire conflict started on Oct 7. There is a lot more history behind the conflict than the horrible events that occurred on just that day." And most of the Israeli-supporters o this topic do just that. 

NO!

Who said this entire conflict started on October 7?!? You made that up.

 

This current WAR started then. Hamas started this current WAR.

The conflict of course is very long lasting. 

I really don't appreciate your lie here. You either have very poor comprehension or are toxically disingenuous.

Try harder if you want to be taken seriously.

[rabas]

51 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So Bkk Brian, please answer me just one question:
- If you think that Arab journalists who seem to be pro-Hamas/anti-Israel on social media cannot be impartial, do you think Jewish journalists who seem to be pro-Israel/anti-Hamas on social media can be impartial?

 

Bad faith comparison. Seeks to establish a false equivalence between disparate entities using a binary view of something with a great degree of variability.  Kind of like did you ever lie? So your as bad as Putin.

 

Common tactic in support of hard line terrorists. 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, how about... "IMO, I think it is really dumb and simple-minded to think that this entire conflict started on Oct 7. There is a lot more history behind the conflict than the horrible events that occurred on just that day." And most of the Israeli-supporters o this topic do just that. 

Your problem is you think we are all daft and don't know any history of any conflicts.

 

Your problem is you live in the past, have a cloud over your head, do you still have one for German folk......?  

On top of that, you openly make excuses for the 100% murderers on 7/10....😬

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Regardless who's the political leader, the aims remain. 

 

Poll: 75% of Jewish Israelis back Rafah operation

A new poll finds that around three-quarters of Jewish Israelis support an expansion of IDF operations in Gaza’s southernmost city of Rafah, where more than half of the Strip’s 2.3 million people are sheltering in the area amid the ongoing war with Hamas, while two-thirds of Arab respondents disagree.

A political orientation breakdown in the Israel Democracy Institute survey shows that 45 percent of Jewish respondents who identify as left-wing support such a move, while the center and right-wing back it to a much greater extent.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation

This was in Dec 2023, but after the Israeli terrorists had started bombing Gaza. 
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, rabas said:

53 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So Bkk Brian, please answer me just one question:
- If you think that Arab journalists who seem to be pro-Hamas/anti-Israel on social media cannot be impartial, do you think Jewish journalists who seem to be pro-Israel/anti-Hamas on social media can be impartial?

 

Bad faith comparison. Seeks to establish a false equivalence between disparate entities using a binary view of something with a great degree of variability.  Kind of like did you ever lie? So your as bad as Putin.

 

Common tactic in support of hard line terrorists. 

So, your answer would be "yes." 

And, no, it's not the same as you noted above. That's a false equivalency. The equivilency would depend on the ramifications of the lies. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

This was in Dec 2023, but after the Israeli terrorists had started bombing Gaza. 
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters

"Israeli terrorists", it is obvious where you are coming from, you are an antisemite, so don't deny it, you embarrass yourself, actually, daily.....🤔

[rabas]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

So, your answer would be "yes." 

And, no, it's not the same as you noted above. That's a false equivalency. The equivilency would depend on the ramifications of the lies. 

 

I gave no answer but did provide reasons why I and most unbiased people can't. 

 

How did you miss all that?

 

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Your problem is you think we are all daft and don't know any history of any conflicts.

 

Your problem is you live in the past, have a cloud over your head, do you still have one for German folk......?  

On top of that, you openly make excuses for the 100% murderers on 7/10....😬

I don't think you're all "daft," but I do think you are all biased and blinded by that.

I don't live in the past, but I don't discount what was done in the past as being a large part of what is causing this current, ongoing conflict.

I have never made any excuses for the terrorist activities of Hamas on Oct 7. I've only tried to put it in perspective for those who think that attack came suddenly out of nowhere. I also don't make any excuses for the indiscriminate revenge bombing of Gaza that has occurred since.

[rabas]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

This was in Dec 2023, but after the Israeli terrorists had started bombing Gaza. 
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters

Last line from your referenced article.

 

"Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, has ruled Gaza since splitting with the Palestinian Authority (PA) in 2007. The PA exercises limited governance in the West Bank."

 

There's the problem with much of your argument. 

 

 

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

I gave no answer but did provide reasons why I and most unbiased people can't. 

 

How did you miss all that?

 

I asked a question, and all you did was try to run around it.

My answer would be If a publisher believes their Arab journalists who show pro-Hamas/anti-Israeli sentiments on social media can't be trusted, then they should also use that same scrutiny on their Jewish journalists who have shown to be pro-Israel/anti-Hamas on social media. 

[rattlesnake]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I asked a question, and all you did was try to run around it.

My answer would be If a publisher believes their Arab journalists who show pro-Hamas/anti-Israeli sentiments on social media can't be trusted, then they should also use that same scrutiny on their Jewish journalists who have shown to be pro-Israel/anti-Hamas on social media. 

 

A common sense statement indeed.

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, rabas said:

Last line from your referenced article.

 

"Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, has ruled Gaza since splitting with the Palestinian Authority (PA) in 2007. The PA exercises limited governance in the West Bank."

 

There's the problem with much of your argument. 

 

 

No, because that is exactly the goal of Netanyahu and his right-wing, nationalistic cronies (I can't use a certain word I normally use here anymore - I've been warned about that). They want total control of what they believe to be the "Promised Land." 

That's the entire argument. Both sides want full control of the land that used to be called "Palestine."

[Wobblybob]

16 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't think you're all "daft," but I do think you are all biased and blinded by that.

I don't live in the past, but I don't discount what was done in the past as being a large part of what is causing this current, ongoing conflict.

I have never made any excuses for the terrorist activities of Hamas on Oct 7. I've only tried to put it in perspective for those who think that attack came suddenly out of nowhere. I also don't make any excuses for the indiscriminate revenge bombing of Gaza that has occurred since.

Accuse the other side of which you yourself are extremely guilty!

[Wobblybob]

Just now, rattlesnake said:

 

I can't remember seeing any babies celebrating.

Hanging on to the words of terrorists and blaming Israel for a conflict that Hamas undeniably started.

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

23 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't think you're all "daft," but I do think you are all biased and blinded by that.

I don't live in the past, but I don't discount what was done in the past as being a large part of what is causing this current, ongoing conflict.

I have never made any excuses for the terrorist activities of Hamas on Oct 7. I've only tried to put it in perspective for those who think that attack came suddenly out of nowhere. I also don't make any excuses for the indiscriminate revenge bombing of Gaza that has occurred since.

Accuse the other side of which you yourself are extremely guilty!

No, I can see the pro-Israeli side of this conflict. It is, IMO, based on the fervent belief that Jews have been "promised" that land by "God," so they are entitled to it. And, again, IMO, Palestinians believe that since their forefathers lived there, they too are entitled to it. And then on and on it goes. 

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I can see the pro-Israeli side of this conflict. It is, IMO, based on the fervent belief that Jews have been "promised" that land by "God," so they are entitled to it. And, again, IMO, Palestinians believe that since their forefathers lived there, they too are entitled to it. And then on and on it goes. 

Total garbled gibberish gobbledygook!

[Nick Carter icp]

4 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'd do...if I were Hamas. As soon as they turn over all the hostages, Israel will invade Gaza, killing everyone they think is or has been connected with Hamas while killing many more that are civilians in the process. And then they will probably do something similar, only probably not so outlandish, in the West Bank.

 

   Hamas are war criminals, terrorists rapists and child abductors and killers , yes they need to face justice .

The Hamas leadership and members will be wiped out sooner or later , looks like thry ant to take the hostages with them when they go 

[rattlesnake]

20 minutes ago, rabas said:

Last line from your referenced article.

 

"Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, has ruled Gaza since splitting with the Palestinian Authority (PA) in 2007. The PA exercises limited governance in the West Bank."

 

There's the problem with much of your argument. 

 

 

 

But given (as I demonstrated earlier in this thread and as is also well explained in the below article) that this attack would not have happened if Hamas had not been purposefully engineered by the Israeli establishment, a rational and objective observer can only be wary of the unilateral portrayal of Hamas as an independent threat, inherently embedded into the Palestinian civilisation, with the subsequent implied justification/tolerance of indistinct annihilation (cf. Jordan Peterson's infamous tweet "give 'em hell Netanyahu" which is quite representative of this trend). Nothing is farther from the truth: without the Likud's active and Messianic-driven interference, a two-state solution would have happened a long time ago and Hamas would not exist.

 

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

[...]

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip—money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I can see the pro-Israeli side of this conflict. It is, IMO, based on the fervent belief that Jews have been "promised" that land by "God," so they are entitled to it. And, again, IMO, Palestinians believe that since their forefathers lived there, they too are entitled to it. And then on and on it goes. 

 

  Don't forget that the Jews ancestors also lived on the land 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

But given (as I demonstrated earlier in this thread and as is also well explained in the below article) that this attack would not have happened if Hamas had not been purposefully engineered by the Israeli establishment, a rational and objective observer can only be wary of the unilateral portrayal of Hamas as an independent threat, inherently embedded into the Palestinian civilisation, with the subsequent implied justification/tolerance of indistinct annihilation (cf. Jordan Peterson's infamous tweet "give 'em hell Netanyahu" which is quite representative of this trend). Nothing is farther from the truth: without the Likud's active and Messianic-driven interference, a two-state solution would have happened a long time ago and Hamas would not exist.

 

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

[...]

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip—money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

 

   Hamas were quite reasonable to begin with , carried out numerous social duties .

Problems arose when the military wing took over the Hamas group

[Bkk Brian]

52 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

This was in Dec 2023, but after the Israeli terrorists had started bombing Gaza. 
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters

No it was not, the link I provided was a poll dated 10th March

 

10 March 2024, 2:55 pm. A new poll finds that around three-quarters of Jewish Israelis support an expansion of IDF operations in Gaza’s southernmost city of Rafah, where more than half of the Strip’s 2.3 million people are sheltering in the area amid the ongoing war with Hamas

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation

 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No it was not, the link I provided was a poll dated 10th March

 

10 March 2024, 2:55 pm. A new poll finds that around three-quarters of Jewish Israelis support an expansion of IDF operations in Gaza’s southernmost city of Rafah, where more than half of the Strip’s 2.3 million people are sheltering in the area amid the ongoing war with Hamas

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation

 

I was referring to the link I posted. That poll was taken in Dec of 2023.

[Bkk Brian]

22 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

But given (as I demonstrated earlier in this thread and as is also well explained in the below article) that this attack would not have happened if Hamas had not been purposefully engineered by the Israeli establishment, a rational and objective observer can only be wary of the unilateral portrayal of Hamas as an independent threat, inherently embedded into the Palestinian civilisation, with the subsequent implied justification/tolerance of indistinct annihilation (cf. Jordan Peterson's infamous tweet "give 'em hell Netanyahu" which is quite representative of this trend). Nothing is farther from the truth: without the Likud's active and Messianic-driven interference, a two-state solution would have happened a long time ago and Hamas would not exist.

 

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

[...]

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip—money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

Nonsense, this has been discussed numerous times in previous topics. Hamas was receiving the same money from Qatar years before the Israeli gov helped facilitate it along with the knowledge of the US and is still to this day receiving it from Qatar. Hamas has plenty of other streams of cash, there's whole topics on it right here. Its false to say Hamas would not have been around without Netanyahu although its true he bolstered their presence.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I was referring to the link I posted. That poll was taken in Dec of 2023.

Irrelevant to the one from the 10th March then..................jeez or is this a competition to see how many polls we can find from the last 5 months

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

No, because that is exactly the goal of Netanyahu and his right-wing, nationalistic cronies (I can't use a certain word I normally use here anymore - I've been warned about that). They want total control of what they believe to be the "Promised Land." 

That's the entire argument. Both sides want full control of the land that used to be called "Palestine."

 

 

  It was never called Palestine, that's a untruth that you keep saying , you have said it so often, that you probably believe yourself

[rattlesnake]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Nonsense, this has been discussed numerous times in previous topics. Hamas was receiving the same money from Qatar years before the Israeli gov helped facilitate it along with the knowledge of the US and is still to this day receiving it from Qatar. Hamas has plenty of other streams of cash, there's whole topics on it right here. Its false to say Hamas would not have been around without Netanyahu although its true he bolstered their presence.

 

I did not say Hamas would not exist without Netanyahu, I said it would not exist without the Israeli establishment.

 

Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s, told the New York Times that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”).

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

 

I did not say Hamas would not exist without Netanyahu, I said it would not exist without the Israeli establishment.

 

Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s, told the New York Times that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”).

 

   Israel did help Hamas , but even if Israel didn't help . Hamas would still have existed from Arabs Countries help

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

 

I did not say Hamas would not exist without Netanyahu, I said it would not exist without the Israeli establishment.

 

Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s, told the New York Times that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”).

Hamas was created by the Muslim Brotherhood since 1987. Nothing to do with this war started on the 7th Oct