Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Wobblybob]

57 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Guess what? This conflict did not start on Oct 7. That is just the second-most recent atrocity that has occurred in this at least 85-year-long conflict. When will you accept that? I just don't understand your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the history behind this conflict.

It's not easy to spot an antisemite. Many are very good at concealing their hatred of some of the Semite people. 

I have never demanded a ceasefire without also recommending a reciprocal release of hostages. Many of "you" do demand a return of hostages without a ceasefire. But now that you mention it, I believe if Israel did implement a ceasefire, Hamas would return hostages. And if that ceasefire was promised (with assurances of a 3rd party) to be permanent, I believe Hamas would gladly release all of the hostages. 

Your downfall is believing terrorists, and this war did start on 7/10 because without that incursion by the Palestian terrorists none of this would be happening, however, and which way you try and spin things Hamas actions have cost them dearly. 

You are totally in denial, remember what these thugs did and with a straight face tell me that Israel should just forget about it while the hostages are being sexually abused and tortured on a daily basis.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Yes! Or how my forefathers treated the indigenous American Indians. You seem to think that was wrong. I agree. But now you don't seem to think what Israel is doing is wrong. Why is that? 

Interesting question, considering that what the israelis are doing in Gaza and the West Bank is IMO the same as what was done to the indigenous people of the north American continent couple hundred years ago.

[Wobblybob]

10 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And so have the Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, right? 

How soon will you be giving the land that you're living on back to the Apache, Comanche and the Navarro Indians?

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And so have the Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, right? 

After the Romans destroyed the temple many Jews left Palestine and not many were left. Eventually they became a minority as Arabs moved in hundreds of years ago. It's all documented if one wants to look.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, ezzra said:

 

You want to put forward your legitimate grievances, put them in font of many legal avenues that are there for this purpose

and not  sacrifice 10's of thousands of live and a whole generation just to prove you have a just cause... 

Legitimate grievances have been put in front of the UN for decades and resolutions condemning israel have been ignored by israel for decades.

[Nick Carter icp]

19 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The question that should be really asked is How many Palestinians and Israelis will have to die before the Palestinians

will realise that they're fighting a losing war? I mean there is no way in hell for them to win with the way they do now,

so what is the point to continue? unless of course Palestinians lives don't matter, and by looking at how things

are at the moment, for the people that behind all of this, they don't...

 

   Th big problem is that Palestinians believe that dying in a war against Jews will give then instant access to Heaven , no questions asked , all their previous sins get wiped and 72 virgins here they come .

   They have restrictions in life and they aspire to go to Heaven , so they don't mind dying at all .

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Your downfall is believing terrorists, and this war did start on 7/10 because without that incursion by the Palestian terrorists none of this would be happening, however, and which way you try and spin things Hamas actions have cost them dearly. 

You are totally in denial, remember what these thugs did and with a straight face tell me that Israel should just forget about it while the hostages are being sexually abused and tortured on a daily basis.

I don't deny that Oct 7 was the reason for this most recent armed conflict in this at least 85-year-old conflict.

If Oct 7 hadn't occurred, Israel would just keep on seizing Palestinian land, and the world would not pay much attention to that.

The Israeli response has cost Hamas and Palestinians dearly, but it has put this conflict back in the spotlight of the rest of the world.

Israel should not forget about the treatment of the hostages. They should do everything possible to ensure their quick return, and that would be agreeing to a permanent ceasefire. I'm sure the Palestinians will not forget about the indiscriminate bombing and invasion of Gaza, either. All this is a no-win situation.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Support of zionist views while failing to address any criticisms of zionism is demonstrative. By definition, zionism is extremist. It is not moderate by any measure. Zionism is nationalism and all nationalism is racist, ergo extremist.

 

I knew you'll never answer any of those questions.

You made a defamatory claim and have failed to back it up. You can't because its false, I have never espouse extreme zionist views. You are a liar.

 

You also ignore what I've already said to you and then ask me the same questions again and again. 

 

 

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1321438-‘britain-feels-like-nazi-germany’-the-jewish-people-wanting-to-flee-the-uk-as-antisemitism/page/9/#comment-18741610

 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I can answer them without requiring any evidence...
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Yes

5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes

 

I rest my case. Your position can be appropriately described as extremist.

 

But I will say your answers to q 1 to 3 are seemingly contradictory. You don't deny that Israel intends to own all the land but deny they have a legitimate right to it. Is that correct? It's what you have implied in your answer. Good faith might be demonstrated by some slightly more nuanced answers.

 

I did forget one more question that I have previous asked of you but that you have never deigned to answer.

 

Is the loss of any number of civilians lives justifiable if that's needed to defeat Hamas?

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Not too different to how your great great grandparents treated the Maoris in New Zealand

Absolutely zero to do with this thread, or this conflict, but when you have no answers to criticism, lets deflect away from the subject.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

You made a defamatory claim and have failed to back it up. You can't because its false, I have never espouse extreme zionist views. You are a liar.

 

You also ignore what I've already said to you and then ask me the same questions again and again. 

 

 

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1321438-‘britain-feels-like-nazi-germany’-the-jewish-people-wanting-to-flee-the-uk-as-antisemitism/page/9/#comment-18741610

 

 

I stand by my claim that zionism is an extreme nationalist movement. To rely on your claim that zionism wants only what it achieved 70 years ago is a deflection.

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I don't deny that Oct 7 was the reason for this most recent armed conflict in this at least 85-year-old conflict.

If Oct 7 hadn't occurred, Israel would just keep on seizing Palestinian land, and the world would not pay much attention to that.

The Israeli response has cost Hamas and Palestinians dearly, but it has put this conflict back in the spotlight of the rest of the world.

Israel should not forget about the treatment of the hostages. They should do everything possible to ensure their quick return, and that would be agreeing to a permanent ceasefire. I'm sure the Palestinians will not forget about the indiscriminate bombing and invasion of Gaza, either. All this is a no-win situation.

Jeez, you are justifying 7/10 and you don't even realise it, do you.🥴

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I stand by my claim that zionism is an extreme nationalist movement. To rely on your claim that zionism wants only what it achieved 70 years ago is a deflection.

You never made that claim though, you claimed I espoused extreme zionist views. You are a liar.

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

How soon will you be giving the land that you're living on back to the Apache, Comanche and the Navarro Indians?

To answer your question, we have given a very small fraction of the land back, but I do not want to imply that is justice.

It's much the same as Israel has done/is doing with the Palestinians, forcing them to live in "reservations" like Gaza and the West Bank. 

Do you think what my forefathers (USA) did to the native Indians was wrong? If so, why do you continue to support Isreal? There, at least, both have some claim to the land, so a two-state solution is what I think should be done. But you have already stated you think Israel should own ALL the land, and the Palestinians were either eliminated or kept as second or third-class citizens with limited rights. 

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

In other words Israel can surrender and say Hamas has won? Because that is what Hamas is asking for. A full ceasefire and withdrawal of all troops before any hostages have been released. 

 

Rubbish, nobody wins this war until both sets of protagonists realise the futility of this conflict, but after nearly a century of battles I'll not get my hopes up. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

You espoused zionist views. All zionist views are extreme as they are rooted in the belief that all the land is Jewish and not any of it Palestinian. You never denied that you are a zionist. Do you want to make that denial now?

You can't back up your claims so you make things up.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

After the Romans destroyed the temple many Jews left Palestine and not many were left. Eventually they became a minority as Arabs moved in hundreds of years ago. It's all documented if one wants to look.

 

   The land that Jerusalem  sat on was called Judea in Roman times . 

Judea was the Roman translation of Yehuda , Yehuda being the Son of Jacob and later changed his name to Israel .

   Jerusalem was and is in Judea , which is an Hebrew name dating back thousands of years .

There wasn't a Country called Palestine in Roman times 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Rubbish, nobody wins this war until both sets of protagonists realise the futility of this conflict, but after nearly a century of battles I'll not get my hopes up. 

I prefer not to reply to a poster who claims all Hamas done is in order

[thaibeachlovers]

24 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

That's a good question. I think the Palestinians continue to fight and commit attacks such as Oct 7, to shock the world enough so they will look into this situation and help enforce an equitable settlement. This is just IMO, but I can think of no other reason, except maybe just frustration and revenge.

I think the Hamas leaders undertook the October 7 mission with the understanding that israeli revenge would be brutal and many Gazans would die, but better to die in revolt against the oppressors than live forever under tyranny. I also think that they thought that once the attack went too far, world opinion would turn against israel and a two state solution would be imposed on the israelis.

 

So far that is the way I have described. Many Gazans are dying, but the world is slowly turning en mass against israel, and even the Americans seem to be seriously considering a two state solution.

Once the death toll reaches a critical mass, whether by bombing, bullet, disease or starvation, IMO world revulsion will make the US abandon its unquestioning support of israel and persuade them to force israel to evacuate the West Bank to allow for a two state solution. Whatever the reason for Americans supporting israel, they have to get along with the rest of the western world, and the western world is not supporting israel to any great extent any more. Even the UK abstained at the last UN resolution calling for a ceasefire. That's a big win for the Gazans.

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

To answer your question, we have given a very small fraction of the land back, but I do not want to imply that is justice.

It's much the same as Israel has done/is doing with the Palestinians, forcing them to live in "reservations" like Gaza and the West Bank. 

Do you think what my forefathers (USA) did to the native Indians was wrong? If so, why do you continue to support Isreal? There, at least, both have some claim to the land, so a two-state solution is what I think should be done. But you have already stated you think Israel should own ALL the land, and the Palestinians were either eliminated or kept as second or third-class citizens with limited rights. 

I used it as an example to highlight the ludicrous point you are trying to make, it is hypocritical and disingenuous to even suggest that lands should be returned after long periods of dwelling by invaders. 

Show me where I stated that "Israel should own ALL the land" and "Palestinians were either eliminated or kept as second or third-class citizens with limited rights."  Do you have to be dishonest to try and make a point......if you do, you don't have a point!

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Not too different to how your great great grandparents treated the Maoris in New Zealand

How little you know, to spout such garbage.

My great great grandparents were being oppressed by the English.

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I rest my case. Your position can be appropriately described as extremist.

 

But I will say your answers to q 1 to 3 are seemingly contradictory. You don't deny that Israel intends to own all the land but deny they have a legitimate right to it. Is that correct? It's what you have implied in your answer. Good faith might be demonstrated by some slightly more nuanced answers.

 

I did forget one more question that I have previous asked of you but that you have never deigned to answer.

 

Is the loss of any number of civilians lives justifiable if that's needed to defeat Hamas?

I think you've misunderstood some of my answers: 
1. I don't deny that Israel (Zionists) intend to own all the land.
2. I don't deny "... that the Zionist credo is that all of the "promised lands" belong to Israel." That doesn't mean I think their "credo" is legitimate. I disagree with it. 
6. No. "Is the indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian towns, killing 20,000 people not a war crime?" If you remove the "not" from the question, I'd have answered, "Yes." I do think it was a war crime.
7. No. Same reasoning as 6.
 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Back up what claims? That zionism is nationalism? Is that what you want proved? Do you think it's a religious organisation?

Trolling now, you know what claims because they are lies

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I think you've misunderstood some of my answers: 
1. I don't deny that Israel (Zionists) intend to own all the land.
2. I don't deny "... that the Zionist credo is that all of the "promised lands" belong to Israel." That doesn't mean I think their "credo" is legitimate. I disagree with it. 
6. No. "Is the indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian towns, killing 20,000 people not a war crime?" If you remove the "not" from the question, I'd have answered, "Yes." I do think it was a war crime.
7. No. Same reasoning as 6.
 

 

Oops, intended to ask those questions of Brian.

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Palestinians are the cause of this war , they attacked Israel on Oct 7 th

That is an undeniable fact .

I don't blame Israel for participated in a war started by Palestinians .

Due to the security threat to Israel , terrorists need to be removed from Gaza .

Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel and it seems that the only way to do that is to remove them from the land 

Now just for the sake of equality, let's rewrite this from the opposite direction:

 

Israelis are the cause of this war, they declared a Zionist State of Israel on May 14  1948.

That is an undeniable fact.

I don't blame Palestine for participating in a war started by Israelis.

Due to the security threat to Palestine, terrorists need to be removed from Gaza. Israelis need to stop attacking Palestine and it seems that the only way to do this is to remove them from the land.

 

Now the ridiculous thing is the boots on the other foot. 

[Nick Carter icp]

47 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

The computer my forefathers stole is way out of date, and the party they stole it from now has access to new ones. They do talk about the theft somewhat, but most of the family are not militant about it. Those that are have filed suits, and they are working their way through the legal system. Restitution for the theft has been paid to some, and some claims are still pending.

 

  So that would also be a solution to the Palestinian issue ?

Give Palestinians access to other land , let them file a few suits in Court and that will resolve the issue 

Pay Palestinians restitution money and problem solved .

It worked for your Country and it should work in Israel 

[ezzra]

17 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Legitimate grievances have been put in front of the UN for decades and resolutions condemning israel have been ignored by israel for decades.

Than go complain to the relevant authorities, Or, as Hamas did, went in, burned, looted, mutilated, raped and kidnapped

men, women, babies and foreigners, and now these are the results, they knew very well what they were doing

and what Israel response will be and STILL went in, so be a man, continue to fight and do't go to the world crying 

Wow are us, feel pity on us and give us food...

 

[WDSmart]

16 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Jeez, you are justifying 7/10 and you don't even realise it, do you.🥴

I'm not "justifying" it. I'm telling you why I think Hamas felt "justified" in doing it. Just as I'm sure, you think the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is "justified." I think neither is, but I know there are many on both sides that do. I'm only presenting the other side's perspective. Why can't you accept that? Why do you blame me for that? You can blame them and call them names, but why do that to me?

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Honestly ,  really .

Are you saying that there has been conflict between Israel and Arabs in the past ?

Well I never , learn something new everyday

How did you find out about this .

Thanks for bringing that info to the table 

 

   *Sarcasm*

 

 Lowest form of wit, or in this case, sounds like wit.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How little you know, to spout such garbage.

My great great grandparents were being oppressed by the English.

 

   Are you of Maori descent ?

Are you Maori ?