Two New Zealand Men Arrested in Phuket for Alleged Brutal Assault on Traffic Cop

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, ryandb said:

Thanks, I agree I'm wasting my time, it's just sad to see how many are happy to impose a sentence based on their initial feelings. They might be right and they are a pair of T#ats and did everything the police said. Can you imagine these people serving on a jury, scary.

fortunately most of them are too old for jury service, Something weird happens to some blokes when they get to a certain age, 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

I think its a bit strange that they are actually charging them with attempting to bribe a police officer,    That would be equivalent of the police shooting themselves in the foot. It would certainly have a negative effect on their day to day business model if it became common knowledge that doing so could get one into serious trouble.  But I guess they want to throw as much as they can at these to guys and the police will have little problem informing everybody else that for the rest of the population it will be business as usual   

Didn't they try the "cash get out of jail card" at the police station, cos they knew they were cooked....

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

13 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

As far as the photo is connected - that only shows one NZ Guy subduing the police officer and the other making the weapon safe, as to why he felt the need to do that is the part of this issue which IMO is of greatest significance...

 

More significant than farangs evading a traffic stop?

 

Since when does a farang, evading a traffic stop and participating in the assault of a Thai cop have the right to make the cop's weapon "safe"?

 

There's a lot of jumping around there NanLeaw...

 

Firstly, no action of another gives anyone any rights...    What I and a couple of others are suggesting is that there is more to the story than we are being fed...   

 

This issue is clearly multifaceted: 

- There is no right for anyone to evade the stop. 

- There is no right for the NZ guys to exacerbate any potential issues by fleeing.

 

BUT there are a lot of unanswered questions as to how the situation escalated....  we're not sure of events, the reports are contradictory and in parts somewhat questionable.

 

 

- Did the NZ guys attack the Police officer to an attempt to avoid arrest after fleeing ??...  Or

- Were the NZ guys fighting for their lives (or they thought they were) after the Policeman drew his weapon in anger ??

 

 

[ryandb]

Just now, Bday Prang said:

fortunately most of them are too old for jury service, Something weird happens to some blokes when they get to a certain age, 

Yeah I have a feeling most of the guys who jumped to the lynch mob are more pissed off by any younger person living in Thailand, than what they did, not the ones who are living comfortably here, they are usually a joy to talk to, but the ones surviving on a minimal pension.

[richard_smith237]

13 hours ago, ravip said:

REALLY, if the cop was a nut case, he would have shot both of them dead, isn't it?

 

Would he ??  He wouldn't have been able to if the NZ guys were quick enough to react.

 

It was reported that shot was fired in the tussle for the gun... But...

- Was the shot fired by the Policeman in anger which triggered the tussle for the gun, and the story is whitewashing those actions ?.... OR

- Are the reports true and the NZ guys attacked the Policeman and tried to steel his gun at which time it went off ?

 

 

13 hours ago, ravip said:

Why wait for the NZ idiot to get on top of him? A nut cop with a weapon in hand waiting for a monkey to get on top of him????

 

Who knows....    the Policeman was clearly poorly trained.

 

 

13 hours ago, ravip said:

Its very obvious who the nut cases are.

 

It is obvious if we are going to take the media reports as 100% fact.....       

 

 

13 hours ago, ravip said:

OK keep justifying the two NZ nut cases... I am done! Enough time wasted.

 

You have failed to comprehend my point - I don't think the reports we are reading are factually correct (reports such as this rarely are).

 

 

Your position and opinion is quite clear though: You don't want to think any more deeply about this issue, its easier to take the media reports as fact and 'hang em high'....   

... Do you really believe the story in the media is factually correct ?

 

 

We have a long history of police lies and corruption in Thailand - it would not surprise me at all that spin has been applied to make the NZ actions of the NZ to appear a lot more severe and paint the BiB as a victim, its quite possible the NZ guys have just saved there own lives, unfortunately potentially at great expense to their freedom.

 

There is still no public statement from them: Additionally so, I'd only believe a statement from them once they were outside of Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

13 hours ago, Smokin Joe said:

The photo does not show the one with the gun making it safe. Although that MAY have been what he was doing, the photo, in know way, shows that. The photo would be the same if he was racking the slide to make sure it had a round in the chamber so it would be ready to fire.

 

While I disagree with this possibility, its still a possibility - the photo shows numerous possibilities.

 

As you mention - the 2nd NZ guy could be ensuring the weapon was 'ready' rather than ensuring it was 'safe'....

 

The picture speaks a thousand words is incorrect - the saying should be, a picture can be highlighy misleading. 

 

 

IMO: The picture and video shows the NZ Guy 1 subdue and disarm the BiB them hand NZ Guy 2 the gun. 

At no point does NZ Guy 2 point the gun at the Policeman.

At no point do any of the NZ guys hit or strike the policeman. 

 

- IMO this implies the Immediate goal of the NZ guys was to subdue the Policeman rather than attack him.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

18 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

What 'facts' do you have ?

 

We see a video of one NZ guy disarming and subduing a police officer, then handing the gun over to his friend who makes it safe - those are the visual facts. 

 

These facts are enough to convict them for assaulting a police man, stealing his weapon and illegal firearm possession.

All the made-up stories to try to shift blame won't change that.

To me all these feeble excuses are quite pathetic.

 

IMO - they are not 'facts' the video is evidence not fact as it is still open to interpretation as the video does not show the whole event. 

 

The only fact we have is that one male NZ Guy1 subdued and disarmed a Thai Policeman, while another NZ Guy2 stood by and took the disarmed gun from NZ Guy1. 

 

 

These are not feeble excuses to exonerate the NZ guys - the comments made by myself (and a few others) are to highlight that the story we are getting through Thai and social media may be very one sided and there may well be more to this story than some are blindly and naïvely buying into just because its in print somewhere. 

 

 

[Smokin Joe]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

While I disagree with this possibility, its still a possibility - the photo shows numerous possibilities.

 

As you mention - the 2nd NZ guy could be ensuring the weapon was 'ready' rather than ensuring it was 'safe'....

 

The picture speaks a thousand words is incorrect - the saying should be, a picture can be highlighy misleading. 

 

 

IMO: The picture and video shows the NZ Guy 1 subdue and disarm the BiB them hand NZ Guy 2 the gun. 

At no point does NZ Guy 2 point the gun at the Policeman.

At no point do any of the NZ guys hit or strike the policeman. 

 

- IMO this implies the Immediate goal of the NZ guys was to subdue the Policeman rather than attack him.

 

 

 

Exactly. Without the video the picture alone proves nothing except that he was holding a gun.

[ryandb]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

IMO - they are not 'facts' the video is evidence not fact as it is still open to interpretation as the video does not show the whole event. 

 

The only fact we have is that one male NZ Guy1 subdued and disarmed a Thai Policeman, while another NZ Guy2 stood by and took the disarmed gun from NZ Guy1. 

 

 

These are not feeble excuses to exonerate the NZ guys - the comments made by myself (and a few others) are to highlight that the story we are getting through Thai and social media may be very one sided and there may well be more to this story than some are blindly and naïvely buying into just because its in print somewhere. 

 

 

 

The lack of ability of people to understand the difference between evidence, conjecture, and statements with facts/proof is quite scary.

 

You are 100% correct.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

2 hours ago, ryandb said:

 

- Cop attacks first

- Cop is unlawfully detaining

- Cop is sexually assaulting you

- Cop is acting on behalf of a tyrannical government implementing oppressive laws

- Cop is threatening to kill you

- Cop is drunk/high and handling his weapon

 

All these would justify restraining or even assaulting and stopping the threat to you, just because you wouldn't have the balls to stand up to a cop doesn't mean that there are zero circumstances where a non cuck wouldn't

Expand  

All hypothetical situation of which there is zero proof that happened in this case but still you keep pushing the agenda that something like this happened.

Your silly also unfounded remark that I don't have the balls to stand up to a cop, proofs you live in a phantasy world.

 

A close friend has been in an extremely difficult situation:

 

He was picking his Wife up from an Bangkok Hotel (5*), she is a business lady (with a very well known international brand, I assume her salary is somewhere in the region of 300,000 baht per month... (I write this to point out her position in the Thai pecking order which may be relevant to events).

 

Mate met his wife at the hotel, valet parked the car, they decided to walk 200m to a neighbouring hotel for a coffee (or lunch).

 

While walking a (lone) Thai Policemen stopped the couple and was quite rude in his tone, demanded to know what they were doing where they were going.

My Friend's Wife didn't hold back and told him it was none of his business. 

The Policeman slapped my mates wife across the face (a full on slap).

My Friend (quite a large lad) was a split second from knocking out the Police officer but managed to control himself.

I'm not sure many of us would have that level of self control after our wife is attacked like that.

 

 

The point of this story is to highlight that the BiB are far from the consummate professionals that the media is painting them to be in this story and the Policeman may be responsible for the trigger which led to an escalation of events (to the gun tussle).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[transam]

Were they drug tested..............😋

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Taboo2 said:

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

The Policeman had a gun...   

 

Did the NZ guys grab the gun from the Policemans holster and the gun went off ?

Or...

Did the Policeman point the gun at the NZ guys and they felt they had little choice but to disarm him ? (i.e. was the policeman so angry they thought he would shoot them ?).

 

 

There's more to this story, I wouldn't be so quick to blindly believe any media report on this at the moment, all reports are quite varied and we have not read of the NZ guys side of this, only the side of the Policeman and the media pushing the 'bad-farang' rhetoric. 

What part of disoberying a cop you do not get?

 

 

What part of dumbed down over simplification of an issue to the point of naïve ignorance are you trying to prove ??? - seemingly all of it. 

 

 

Question for you: 

Do you believe 100% of every part of a Coconuts or Thaiger article ??...   other articles ?

Do you believe the more the same story is perpetuated the greater the probability of it being correct ?

 

 

We only have the BiB's story that the two blew through the Police stop... there is plenty of scope for altenative possibiliites. 

i.e. 

The Two NZ guys rode past the police and did not see or identify a signal to stop. 

The Policeman gives chase

The Two NZ riding quickly didn't realise the were being chased. 

The Policeman catches the NZ guys, heightened adrenaline, angry, pulls his gun and accidentally fires (or deliberately).

The NZ guys have no idea why this Policeman is flipping out but they know they are in danger. 

The NZ guys stop and the Policeman is furious, the one of the NZ guys suspects he is in grave danger as the BiB has gun in hand.

The NZ makes a grab for gun and subdues the Policeman. 

Immediate threat to wellbeing over, the NZ guys allow further police at the scene to take over when they arrive. 

It is later found the NZ guys have no license.

NZ guys knowing how much trouble they are in attempt to bribe their way out of it. 

BiB don't care, massive loss of face for disarming a police officer..

 

 

 

People will of course say this is a made up story and it is made up... BUT after decades of being here and seeing how the Police behave (and Thai men in General) it is perfectly believable that dumb mistakes led to grave escalation but the story we see in the media is whitewashed and heavily bias. 

 

 

 

[transam]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

Were they drug tested..............😋

Somebody is confused by my question, tell me why you are confused, because I cannot think of a reason why these lawbreakers just didn't put their hands up if they were cornered by one weee cop...........😋

I mean, is there a long history of traffic cops gunning down folk over a traffic stop...🤔

[couchpotato]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

What part of dumbed down over simplification of an issue to the point of naïve ignorance are you trying to prove ??? - seemingly all of it. 

 

 

Question for you: 

Do you believe 100% of every part of a Coconuts or Thaiger article ??...   other articles ?

Do you believe the more the same story is perpetuated the greater the probability of it being correct ?

 

 

We only have the BiB's story that the two blew through the Police stop... there is plenty of scope for altenative possibiliites. 

i.e. 

The Two NZ guys rode past the police and did not see or identify a signal to stop. 

The Policeman gives chase

The Two NZ riding quickly didn't realise the were being chased. 

The Policeman catches the NZ guys, heightened adrenaline, angry, pulls his gun and accidentally fires (or deliberately).

The NZ guys have no idea why this Policeman is flipping out but they know they are in danger. 

The NZ guys stop and the Policeman is furious, the one of the NZ guys suspects he is in grave danger as the BiB has gun in hand.

The NZ makes a grab for gun and subdues the Policeman. 

Immediate threat to wellbeing over, the NZ guys allow further police at the scene to take over when they arrive. 

It is later found the NZ guys have no license.

NZ guys knowing how much trouble they are in attempt to bribe their way out of it. 

BiB don't care, massive loss of face for disarming a police officer..

 

 

 

People will of course say this is a made up story and it is made up... BUT after decades of being here and seeing how the Police behave (and Thai men in General) it is perfectly believable that dumb mistakes led to grave escalation but the story we see in the media is whitewashed and heavily bias. 

 

 

 

Stories don't really matter anymore. The videos have have put them in a very tight spot....doesn't matter what our views are. 

They are now in the cells without bail. The Court will fine them heavily plus compensation for the policemans anxiety (sic). Then into the Immigration cells and deported/blacklisted.

The story has been covered extensively in NZ, so I'm sure their homecoming won't be very pretty with their families.

[Mr Meeseeks]

14 hours ago, ravip said:

REALLY, if the cop was a nut case, he would have shot both of them dead, isn't it? Why wait for the NZ idiot to get on top of him? A nut cop with a weapon in hand waiting for a monkey to get on top of him????

 

I have met a lot of Thai police in my time here, and a lot of them are nutters.

 

Won't go into the gun for hire services (allegedly) and other stuff they get involved with. 

[Mr Meeseeks]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

My wife confirms that there's a lot of gossip about farangs right now. Not sure if it's fuelled by anger or suspicion, or the fact that they can't gossip openly about the things that are SERIOUSLY wrong with Thailand.

 

This is exactly what I was warning about when the mobs were gathering to lynch Swissman David.

 

The dirty Chinese gangster is back in control and so is the rampant xenophobia and anti-farang sentiment that accompanied his first term in office in the early 00's.

[Mr Meeseeks]

2 hours ago, mstevens said:

If they fight the charges they can expect a much stiffer sentence, maybe 4 or 5 years. And it does seem, at this early stage, that they wish to fight the charges.

 

That would indicate that they believe they are in the right. 

 

Bizarre, but there's a lot we don't know that happened prior to the video.

 

From experience, Thais will absolutely lie to save face or avoid taking responsibility for their behaviour. Maybe that is what happened here?

[Ohyesuare]

3 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

That would indicate that they believe they are in the right. 

 

Bizarre, but there's a lot we don't know that happened prior to the video.

 

From experience, Thais will absolutely lie to save face or avoid taking responsibility for their behaviour. Maybe that is what happened here?

 

No, it would indicate that's what their very high paid lawyer is telling them to do. 

 

From experience, Thais will very frequently immediately admit to their crimes once caught because it halves their sentence.

[Mr Meeseeks]

1 minute ago, Ohyesuare said:

 

No, it would indicate that's what their very high paid lawyer is telling them to do. 

 

From experience, Thais will very frequently immediately admit to their crimes once caught because it halves their sentence.

 

No Thai lawyer is going to tell them to stand their ground.

 

Thais admitting their guilt to reduce their punishment is nothing new, and has nothing to do with them lying to save face or refusing to take responsibility.

[Jackbenimble]

23 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Any tourist, wishing to return after a first visit to Thailand needs to get his head examined. Thailand 2024 has very little in common with Thailand 2009 and nothing with Thailand 1980.

 

So many greater and welcoming places to visit. Even Malaysia has a lot more attraction.

have to agree, arrived in 2009 on a full time basis and it has changed - a lot. It's still a great place to live providing you have disposable income to enjoy it. But, there are genuine alternative options now whereas there didn't used to be 

[Bday Prang]

13 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

No Thai lawyer is going to tell them to stand their ground.

 

Thais admitting their guilt to reduce their punishment is nothing new, and has nothing to do with them lying to save face or refusing to take responsibility.

Absolutely , if I remember correctly the conviction rates by Thai courts ( for normal run of the mill people at least)    is somewhere around 95%   possibly even more, so generally  speaking  if one is  unfortunate to be appearing in court its pretty much a certainty that one will be found guilty anyway.  Pleading guilty regardless of actual guilt is the only way to reduce what sentence one would inevitably receive.   A no brainer in anybodies book, unless one is suffering from "principles" and is prepared to cut one,s nose off to spite one's face 

[Bday Prang]

25 minutes ago, Ohyesuare said:

From experience, Thais will very frequently immediately admit to their crimes once caught because it halves their sentence.

from  genuine real  "experience" or simply  from what you have heard ?    Have you any Idea what the conviction rate is by Thai courts for "normal" people ?  That would explain their willingness to plead guilty regardless of whether they actually are or not

[Ohyesuare]

27 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

No Thai lawyer is going to tell them to stand their ground.

 

Thais admitting their guilt to reduce their punishment is nothing new, and has nothing to do with them lying to save face or refusing to take responsibility.

 

They are the sons of multi-millionaires and I have no doubts they are doing exactly what they have been told is in their best interest to do right now by the highest paid legal help money can buy.

 

Your generalization of Thais has nothing to do with this topic either way. Humans in general will lie and refuse to take responsibility when being accused of a crime.

[richard_smith237]

22 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

50 minutes ago, Ohyesuare said:

From experience, Thais will very frequently immediately admit to their crimes once caught because it halves their sentence.

from  genuine real  "experience" or simply  from what you have heard ?    Have you any Idea what the conviction rate is by Thai courts for "normal" people ?  That would explain their willingness to plead guilty regardless of whether they actually are or not

 

He already quoted that the conviction rate is about 95%... 

 

... This is general knowledge and widely backed up.

 

 

https://thaipolitics.leeds.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/87/2022/01/McCargo-Punitive-Processes-AJLS-2021.pdf

 

 

[Bday Prang]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

He already quoted that the conviction rate is about 95%... 

 

... This is general knowledge and widely backed up.

 

 

https://thaipolitics.leeds.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/87/2022/01/McCargo-Punitive-Processes-AJLS-2021.pdf

 

 

apologies,  if i have spoken out of turn or been misquoted, I am a bit confused now,   However I did claim a conviction rate of around 95%  I'm guessing the link you provided kind of confirms that but to be honest I started reading it but gave up after the first few paragraphs, 

[Nip]

4 hours ago, ryandb said:

 

Again you are guessing what happened, hey you could be right they may have just attacked the cop, but you might be pretty wrong and the cop went on an ego trip and threatened to shoot or even, as we know one shot was fired, fired a shot and they took him down

That’s it then they are innocent. I’m living in Thailand 25 years. If I’ve nothing to hide or fear because I abide by the law of the land. There was a reason they went on the run. Now they are aware at most they were looking at a 500 baht fine. But they legged it. Then when caught they tried to bribe the police officer. So you’re suggesting this was a good reason for the cop to shoot the two bucks? I think not. I think if the cop drew his gun he felt threatened. Soon their pink bums are gonna be red raw and sore. Idiots. More to come about them soon. Watch the Daily Mail. 

[ryandb]

1 minute ago, Nip said:

That’s it then they are innocent. I’m living in Thailand 25 years. If I’ve nothing to hide or fear because I abide by the law of the land. There was a reason they went on the run. Now they are aware at most they were looking at a 500 baht fine. But they legged it. Then when caught they tried to bribe the police officer. So you’re suggesting this was a good reason for the cop to shoot the two bucks? I think not. I think if the cop drew his gun he felt threatened. Soon their pink bums are gonna be red raw and sore. Idiots. More to come about them soon. Watch the Daily Mail. 

 

You are drooling at the thought of 2 guys being raped in prison (or by the cops, it's not clear). Seek some therapy.

 

Nowhere have I said the cop would be justified in drawing his weapon for a traffic offense, which would be dangerous and would pretty much say the cop is a hothead.

[ryandb]

52 minutes ago, Ohyesuare said:

 

They are the sons of multi-millionaires and I have no doubts they are doing exactly what they have been told is in their best interest to do right now by the highest paid legal help money can buy.

 

Your generalization of Thais has nothing to do with this topic either way. Humans in general will lie and refuse to take responsibility when being accused of a crime.

 

Just the same as cops who handle a situation terribly/illegally will lie and their colleagues and higher ups (and unions in nations with Police Unions) will cover it up. 

[Bday Prang]

59 minutes ago, Ohyesuare said:

 

They are the sons of multi-millionaires and I have no doubts they are doing exactly what they have been told is in their best interest to do right now by the highest paid legal help money can buy.

 

Your generalization of Thais has nothing to do with this topic either way. Humans in general will lie and refuse to take responsibility when being accused of a crime.

                 

    Not here they won't pal  we are not talking "in general" we are specifically discussing Thailand, and things are done differently here

   The best legal advice would be telling them to plead guilty,it is their only way of reducing whatever sentence they will  receive when they are invariably found guilty !     unless some serious irrefutable  further evidence appears, which in this case is very very unlikely   even if it did exist it would never be made public

                     Just recently there was an event in Sa kaew were a woman was murdered by a teenage gang. Her husband was the initial suspect and he confessed to the crime despite having nothing to do with it. It was effectively an open and shut case as they say and his fate was sealed   Only the investigative skills of  a TV journalist  who  unearthed  some cctv footage saved him from a long stretch in prison  and  caused the real suspects to be apprehended.  Amazingly he was still admitting to the murder for a while after the new evidence was discovered and swore he had not been pressured by the police. 

                       You can totally forget any comparisons to the legal process here and what may occur in any other civilised western country, the same goes for the concept of justice.  When you are in the $hit here you will be in it up to your neck and it will be impossible to claw your way out regardless of innocence, and regardless of what legal help you may think you have bought.   

                        probably not that much different than north korea in real terms

 

Edited March 19 by Bday Prang

[Bday Prang]

3 minutes ago, ryandb said:

 

You are drooling at the thought of 2 guys being raped in prison (or by the cops, it's not clear). Seek some therapy.

 

Nowhere have I said the cop would be justified in drawing his weapon for a traffic offense, which would be dangerous and would pretty much say the cop is a hothead.

A common fantasy for many on here is men getting bummed in prison, like i said earlier some blokes get a bit weird when they reach a certain age,  some are weird from birth