Just goes to show that the old saying "Mum knows best" is totally correct in this case................

 

The strange man behind the curtain will give you a brain.

On 3/11/2025 at 6:47 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Yup, Trump doing exactly what Putin wants.

 

Again.

 

 

You mean just like Obama when Putin took Crimea right?

 

 

On 3/11/2025 at 12:34 PM, Social Media said:

Ukraine must give up land to Russia as part of any agreement to end the war, US secretary of state Marco Rubio has suggested.

Stating the flaming obvious. When Russia is winning, it's not going to agree to give it all up.

On 3/12/2025 at 3:33 AM, dinsdale said:

Trump: "Excuse me Dictator Putin will you please leave Ukraine so we can end this war." Dictator Putin: "Sure. Happy to oblige." Chances of this happening? ZERO.

Seems some posters live in a bubble of unreality, in which they imagine Russia will give up, just because they should.

Real life doesn't work that way.

On 3/12/2025 at 3:34 AM, frank83628 said:

As opposed to a keyboard warrior like yourself who wants to keep the war going, people dying, all from the safety of his laptop tucked away far from the bullets or missiles, you weak half man, pussy.

Well said.

On 3/12/2025 at 6:08 AM, TedG said:

I want to be the tip of the spear when Trump invades Canada. 

You're grabbing the tip of something else...

On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 AM, dinsdale said:

As for the deluded they have of course added the laughing emojis to my post saying the Kursk incursion is collapsing.

Seems the fat lady is singing in Kursk. No doubt the usual suspects will keep telling us that Ukraine is winning in Kursk. They can't claim that Ukraine is winning in the east as they are losing ground there.

3 hours ago, TedG said:

Can someone decode this?  I don't speak leftie 

 

 

Since you asked:

 

Quote

What action did the 45th president of the USA carry out against the occupation of the Crimea and the Ukrainian oblasts of Donetsk and Luhansk2during 2014-2022? As far as I know: absolutely nothing, as he was under the influence of his master Putin

 

2017:

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/politics/trump-crimea-russia-twitter-obama/index.html

 

Quote

(The) President......has made it very clear that he expects the Russian government to deescalate violence in the Ukraine and return Crimea.

 

 

Quote

 

In July on the campaign trail, Trump had said that the Ukraine crisis was “more of a Europe problem,” and that the US should only step in on Crimea if European countries asked for help.

In July, Trump said Russian President Vladimir Putin wouldn’t make a military move into Ukraine – even though the country had already done so by seizing the Crimean peninsula.

“He’s not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. He’s not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want,” Trump said in a July interview with ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos on “This Week.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/20/ukraine-ambassador-attacks-trump-aides-secret-peace-plan

Quote

 

A secret attempt to persuade Donald Trump to strike a deal that would involve Moscow keeping Crimea in return for ensuring peace in eastern Ukraine must be seen off, the Ukrainian ambassador to London has said.

The New York Times reported on Sunday that Trump’s personal lawyer and a former business associate met privately in New York last month with a member of the Ukrainian parliament to discuss a peace plan that could give Russia long-term control over territory it seized in 2014 and lead to the lifting of sanctions against Moscow.

The report added to concerns that people close to Trump are manoeuvring to bring about a strategic shift in US relations with Moscow, using Ukraine as a key bargaining chip.

The meeting with Andrii Artemenko, the Ukrainian politician, involved Michael Cohen, a Trump Organisation lawyer since 2007, and Felix Sater, a Russian immigrant to the US who has worked on real estate projects with Trump’s company.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40350065

 

Quote

 

In televised comments, President Trump described Ukraine "a place that we've all been very much involved in and we've been seeing it and everybody has been reading about it".

He added that "a lot of progress has been made" between Ukraine and the US, without providing any further details.

Meanwhile, Mr Poroshenko said America was "one of the most reliable supporters" of Ukraine.

The "drop-in" meeting was described by a number of Russian analysts as a diplomatic snub for the Ukrainian leader.

But observers in Ukraine stressed on the importance of it coming before expected talks between Mr Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin at a G20 gathering in Germany in July.

The US administration is facing claims of Russian meddling in the 2016 election and of possible links between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin.

 

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/03/trumps-objections-russia-sanctions-law-suggest-might-trade-crimea-away/

 

Quote

 

After President Donald Trump reluctantly signed a bill on Wednesday that makes it harder for him to lift sanctions on Russia, the White House issued a curious statement in his name, complaining that the new law includes “a number of clearly unconstitutional provisions.”

Specifically, the president complained about sections 253 and 257 of the legislation, which state that the United States “does not recognize territorial changes effected by force,” and will “never recognize the illegal annexation of Crimea by the Government of the Russian Federation or the separation of any portion of Ukrainian territory through the use of military force.”

Since those statements simply reiterate nine decades of U.S. policy about not recognizing borders changed by force — which has been in effect since the Hoover Administration and was restated by Vice President Mike Pence on Wednesday — Trump’s objection to it seems to indicate that he is open to negotiating new borders for Ukraine as part of his stated desire to “make a deal with Russia.” What, if anything, Trump would get from Russia, in exchange for lifting sanctions related to its occupation of Crimea and support for separatist rebels in the east, remains unclear.

 

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-poroshenko-ukraine-good-progress-un-russia/28749439.html

 

Quote

 

U.S. President Donald Trump has praised Ukraine for making "good progress" amid difficult conditions sparked by Russia’s annexation of the Crimea Peninsula.

Trump met his Ukrainian counterpart, Petro Poroshenko, on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York on September 21.

"I wouldn't say it's the easiest place to live" but "it's getting better and better on a daily basis. I do hear very good things. Ukraine is coming along pretty well," Trump told Poroshenko in front of reporters before the start of their private meeting.

 

 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-presented-47m-deal-arm-ukraine-russia/story?id=51235203

 

Quote

 

President Donald Trump will be presented with the recommendation to finance and sell anti-tank missiles to the Ukrainian government — a move aimed at deterring aggression from pro-Russian separatists, a State Department official told ABC News.

The National Security Council decided during a meeting on Tuesday to greenlight the presentation of a $47 million grant package to the Ukrainian government to purchase American defense arms, including the powerful Javelin anti-tank missiles.

The president and Congress must approve the sale of anti-tank missiles. The Javelin, a portable missile with a steep price-tag, has been described as "The American Military's Anti-Tank Killer."

 

 

2018

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fact-check-administration-actions-russia-tougher-trumps-words/story?id=53223453

 

 

Quote

 

Under heavy criticism for still not condemning Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election, President Donald Trump is defending his record on Russia - and claiming he's been tougher than his predecessor, President Barack Obama.

"I have been much tougher on Russia than Obama, just look at the facts. Total Fake News!" the president tweeted Tuesday morning.

But despite Trump's rhetorical embrace of the autocratic leader and his regime, his administration has taken some big steps to push back on Russia, including some steps that Obama avoided.

In December, his administration decided to arm Ukraine with lethal weapons, and his State Department has consistently criticized Russia for leading, arming, and supporting separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine. While the Obama administration increased aid to Ukraine, and rallied European partners to slap Russia with international sanctions, it never crossed the line into providing lethal support.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://ru.usembassy.gov/statement-by-secretary-pompeo-crimea-declaration/

 

Quote

As we did in the Welles Declaration in 1940, the United States reaffirms as policy its refusal to recognize the Kremlin’s claims of sovereignty over territory seized by force in contravention of international law. In concert with allies, partners, and the international community, the United States rejects Russia’s attempted annexation of Crimea and pledges to maintain this policy until Ukraine’s territorial integrity is restored.

 

 

https://rollcall.com/2018/08/14/trump-wont-follow-congressional-directives-on-russia-and-crimea/

 

Quote

 

President Donald Trump objects to an effort by Congress to prevent his administration from recognizing Crimea as part of Russia.

Crimea is a region in Ukraine that has been occupied by Russia for several years, with the Russian Federation having claimed to have annexed the region in March 2014. Russian President Vladimir Putin has claimed the territorial matter is settled, but many in Washington disagree.

Language in the fiscal 2019 defense authorization, which Trump signed into law Monday during a ceremony at Fort Drum in upstate New York, purported to impose a funding blockade on the Pentagon acting on recognition of Crimea as part of Russia.

 

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-blames-obama-regime-for-ukraine-s-loss-of-crimea/29588249.html

 

Quote

 

U.S. President Donald Trump blamed the “regime” of former President Barack Obama for Ukraine’s loss of its Crimean Peninsula, which was seized and annexed by Russia in 2014.

Trump made the comments during a wide-ranging and sometimes hostile news conference at the White House on November 7 to comment on the U.S. midterm election results.

When asked about his relations with Russia, Trump reminded reporters of the face-to-face meeting he had with President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki in July.

“The fact is I had a very, very good meeting with President Putin," he said. “A lot was discussed -- about Syria, about security, about Ukraine.”

“About the fact that President Obama allowed a very large part of Ukraine to be taken [by Russia]," he added.

When a reporter stated that “it was President Putin who annexed Crimea,” Trump responded by saying, “That was President Obama’s regime. That was during President Obama. Right?

“It was President Obama that allowed it to happen,” he said.

U.S. and other Western countries criticized Moscow and imposed sanctions on Russia over its annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region in March 2013 and its backing of separatists in eastern Ukraine, where fighting has killed more than 10,300 people since April 2014.

 

 

2019

 

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2019/09/pentagon-caught-middle-trump-ukraine-scandal/160188/

 

Quote

 

The president has conceded that he halted the delivery of nearly $400 million in congressionally-mandated security assistance funds to Ukraine over the summer, at the same time that he pressed the new Ukrainian president to investigate one of Trump’s potential 2020 rivals. Trump has offered shifting explanations for the freeze, at times claiming he delayed the funds because European countries were not giving enough aid to Ukraine and on other occasions blaming the freeze on broad concerns about corruption in Ukraine. 

"We want to make sure that country is honest," Trump said again on Tuesday. "It's very important to talk about corruption. If you don't talk about corruption, why would you give money to a country that you think is corrupt?"

On Wednesday, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., claimed that the Pentagon specifically was “concerned about the package going to a new administration we didn’t know anything about.” The new Ukrainian president, former TV star Volodymyr Zelensky, “came from nowhere, and there was a lot of concern would this aid wind up being beneficial to the Russians,” Graham said. 

 

 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-16/as-ukraine-waited-for-u-s-assistance-death-toll-on-eastern-front-line-grew

 

Quote

 

Democrats accuse Trump of holding Ukraine’s allotted military aid hostage in exchange for promises from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate the dealings of Trump’s political rival, Joe Biden.

Although there is no way to link Markiv’s or the dozens of other deaths directly to the lack of aid, military officials and other Ukrainians say they felt exposed, vulnerable and, at least temporarily, abandoned by their foremost ally: Washington.

“U.S. aid to Ukraine has been very complex and fluid, alternating between more economic aid in the 1990s to more civil society support after 2004 to more military assistance after 2014,” said Rory Finnin, a professor of Ukrainian studies at Cambridge University in the United Kingdom. “Holding [aid] hostage to political whim risks more casualties and undermines decades of American support for this strategically important country,”

 

 

https://publicintegrity.org/national-security/trump-administration-officials-worried-ukraine-aid-halt-violated-spending-law/

 

Quote

 

When President Donald Trump ordered a halt to aid to Ukraine last summer, defense officials and diplomats worried first that it would undermine U.S. national security. Ukraine is, as some of them later testified before Congress, on the front lines of Russian aggression, and only robust American support would fend off aggressive Moscow meddling in the West. This worry eventually helped galvanize congressional support for one of the two impeachment articles approved by the House of Representatives on Dec. 18.

But there was also a separate, less-noticed facet of the internal administration uproar set off by Trump’s July 12 order stopping the flow of $391 million in weapons and security assistance to Ukraine. Some senior administration officials worried that by defying a law ordering that the funds be spent within a defined period, Trump was asking the officials involved to take an action that was not merely unwise but flatly illegal.

 

 

 

2020

 

https://www.courthousenews.com/independent-audit-says-trump-freeze-on-ukraine-aid-was-illegal/

 

Quote

 

A federal watchdog concluded Thursday that the White House broke the law by allowing President Donald Trump to freeze U.S. aid to Ukraine so that he could put his own policy priorities before congressional ones.

The 9-page report from the independent Government Accountability Office states that the Office of Management and Budget improperly withheld $214 million in military assistance appropriated by the Defense Department for Ukraine.

As well as being unauthorized, the report says the hold violated the Impoundment Control Act.

 

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-fire-vindman-sondland-after-impeachment-inquiry-testimony/30423541.html

 

Quote

Two top officials who gave damaging testimony in the U.S. House of Representatives' impeachment hearings of President Donald Trump have been ousted from their positions following Trump’s acquittal in a Senate trial.

U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who testified about a controversial phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian president, was fired from his job on February 7 as the National Security Council’s (NSC) expert for the former Soviet republic in what his lawyer said was an act of “revenge.”

Meanwhile, Gordon Sondland, a major donor to the Trump inaugural committee, said in a statement that he has been advised that Trump plans to recall him as the U.S. ambassador to the European Union.

Both men answered House subpoenas and gave testimony that was considered damaging to the president’s argument that he did nothing wrong in his relations with Ukraine, the key matter behind the Democratic-led House's decision to impeach Trump.

 

https://archive.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/bolton-memoir-trump-talks-profanely-about-ukraine-zelensky.html

 

 

Quote

 

In his new memoir, former U.S. National  Security Advisor John Bolton confirms what others have concluded: President Donald J. Trump doesn’t like Ukraine, had no interest in meeting Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and fawned over Russian President Vladimir Putin as well as other authoritarian leaders.

And Bolton quotes Trump in all the profane detail, although Trump has dismissed his former top aide as a “wacko” and “grossly incompetent, and a liar.”

“I don’t want to have any <deleted> thing to do with Ukraine,” Bolton quotes Trump as saying, citing his deputy’s account of a meeting. “They f**king attacked me. I can’t understand why… They tried to f**k me. They’re corrupt. I’m not f**king with them.”

As for Zelensky, Trump said, “I have no f**king interest in meeting with him.”

The two presidents still haven’t met in the White House, nearly a year after the infamous July 25, 2019, phone call leading to Trump’s impeachment by the U.S. House and acquittal by the U.S. Senate. Trump, in the conversation, tried to get Zelensky to investigate his Democratic rival, ex-U.S. Vice President Joseph Biden, as the Republican president withheld nearly $400 million in military and other aid to Ukraine.

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52885178

 

Quote

 

The UK and Canada have opposed Russia's return to the G7, deepening a rift over US President Donald Trump's wish for the country to rejoin.

Mr Trump said on Saturday he would postpone the G7 summit scheduled to take place this month until September.

The president said the G7's "outdated group of countries" should be expanded to include others, including Russia.

On Sunday, Mr Trump told Russian President Vladimir Putin of his plan to invite him to the summit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/26/putin-rejects-donald-trumps-criticism-of-biden-family-business

 

Quote

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Sunday that he saw nothing criminal in Hunter Biden’s past business ties with Ukraine or Russia, marking out his disagreement with one of Donald Trump’s attack lines in the US presidential election.

Putin was responding to comments made by Trump during televised debates with Democratic challenger Joe Biden ahead of the November 3 election.

Trump, who is trailing in opinion polls, has used the debates to make accusations that Biden and his son Hunter engaged in unethical practices in Ukraine.

No evidence has been verified to support the allegations, and Joe Biden has called them false and discredited.

Putin, who has praised Trump in the past for saying he wanted better ties with Moscow, has said Russia will work with any US leader, while noting what he called Joe Biden’s “sharp anti-Russian rhetoric”.

 

 

In 4 years, the 45th President's action on Ukraine appears to be authorizing a recommendation to send Javelins, then trying to block that. Then trying to get sanctions dropped against Russia as well as reversing long standing US government policy on recognition of conquered territories. A $45m transfer that included Javelins would have shipped a maximum of 200 systems, more likely 100 systems. About 50 of those would have been used in training.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems the fat lady is singing in Kursk. No doubt the usual suspects will keep telling us that Ukraine is winning in Kursk. They can't claim that Ukraine is winning in the east as they are losing ground there.

Kursk salient is gone. Troops now surrounded and withdrawing. I said this may happen last week and got the usual vacuous laughing emojis. Nobody had the balls to challenge me though. The only card albeit a small one that Zelensky had has folded. Always was a strategic error and has now proven to be the case.  

1 hour ago, NumbNut said:

You're grabbing the tip of something else...

Jealous?

25 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Kursk salient is gone. Troops now surrounded and withdrawing. I said this may happen last week and got the usual vacuous laughing emojis. Nobody had the balls to challenge me though. The only card albeit a small one that Zelensky had has folded. Always was a strategic error and has now proven to be the case.  

Do you know if this is being reported in western msm? Or will they just simply ignore it so that the sheeple still thinks that their side is winning?

51 minutes ago, MicroB said:

In 4 years, the 45th President's action on Ukraine appears to be authorizing a recommendation to send Javelins, then trying to block that. Then trying to get sanctions dropped against Russia as well as reversing long standing US government policy on recognition of conquered territories. A $45m transfer that included Javelins would have shipped a maximum of 200 systems, more likely 100 systems. About 50 of those would have been used in training.

 

Gotta give you an A for effort, explaining why it's Trump's fault that Putin took Crimea during Obama's term and Donbass during Biden's term. 

 

Steely Dan had an album whose title described it.  Pretzel Logic.

 

On 3/11/2025 at 8:16 AM, impulse said:

 

Are you claiming that they weren't so feckless and weak that they emboldened Putin?

 

You're blaming Trump because you don't like the way he's cleaning up their mess.  Better to just say thanks for stopping the killing and walking the world back from Armageddon that their disastrous policies allowed to start.

 

 

Let me see, you want people to say thanks for stopping the killing when in fact trump stopped giving aide funding, intelligence and arms to Ukraine tp defend themselves while allowing Russia to increase bombing and shelling and killing?  Have I got that straight?   Hmmmm and what planet do you live on?

40 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Do you know if this is being reported in western msm? Or will they just simply ignore it so that the sheeple still thinks that their side is winning?

Just from a quick search the main MSM outlets are not reporting it but it is being reported.

40 minutes ago, MicroB said:

How many opposed to defending Ukraine now were fist pumping in October 2001 when Bush sent in the special forces to support the North Alliance in Afghanistan,

Not I. They should have bombed the Taliban into non existence and left. History, which I knew, tells us that foreign armies do not do well in Aghanistan.

 

41 minutes ago, MicroB said:

or cheered when that US Army  soldier climbed up on that statue of Saddam Hussein to attach a tow rope in front of a rapturous crowd?

Not I. I was sure the entire WMD was a Bush lie, and not having any of it.

The allies made a huge mistake letting Bush fool them, and the French had the right idea.

44 minutes ago, MicroB said:

The brave person breaks up the fight, defends the weak.

These days, the brave person is more likely to be in court than getting a medal- western society has gone mad, IMO.

4 hours ago, TedG said:

 

Sorry dude.  Biden made the final call. 

All agreed, signed and sealed by trump and co.........I can explain it for you but I can't understand it for you. Try a little harder dude.

21 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Do you know if this is being reported in western msm? Or will they just simply ignore it so that the sheeple still thinks that their side is winning?

They'll probably ignore it till it's too obvious to cover up.

14 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Gotta give you an A for effort, explaining why it's Trump's fault that Putin took Crimea during Obama's term and Donbass during Biden's term. 

 

Steely Dan had an album whose title described it.  Pretzel Logic.

 

Didn't you know that it's always Trump's fault, even when he had nothing to do with it? They are probably looking for a way to blame Trump for climate change.

On 3/11/2025 at 8:29 AM, dinsdale said:

Ok. So what's your genius solution? I continue to say that Ukraine is losing more ground daily, in fact last week I posited that Ukrainian troops in Kursk may be in danger of being cut off and surrounded. This is now appearing to be on the cards. So come on. What's your solution? All you do is say Trump is Putin's lackey. Analysts and people in the know knew this would be the case, indeed some posters on here including myself have been saying Ukraine will have to give up land. This is the realty of the situation. My guess is your response to this post will be calling me a Putin sympathizer.

 

No you do not appear to be a Putin sympathizer (though you might be), more a weak morally incoherent appeaser like Britain's Neville Chamberlain who thought that wickedness could be brought off by (someone else's) sacrifice. It couldn't then and it can't now.

 

 

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

No you do not appear to be a Putin sympathizer (though you might be), more a weak morally incoherent appeaser like Britain's Neville Chamberlain who thought that wickedness could be brought off by (someone else's) sacrifice. It couldn't then and it can't now.

 

 

Are insults all you have? Apparently.

So go ahead and insult me- I'll enjoy the comedy.

On 3/11/2025 at 2:57 PM, Harrisfan said:

Trump is a billionaire. 

They are probably too full of hate to care about reality. They've been making it up since he announced his candidacy. Lefty propaganda at it's most effective.

16 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Let me see, you want people to say thanks for stopping the killing when in fact trump stopped giving aide funding, intelligence and arms to Ukraine tp defend themselves while allowing Russia to increase bombing and shelling and killing?  Have I got that straight?   Hmmmm and what planet do you live on?

 

What?  Funding that allowed Ukrainians to keep fighting and dying, but didn't come close to allowing them to actually win?  That would take foreign boots on the ground and risk WW3 and Armageddon.

 

The sooner the money dries up, the sooner the killing will stop.  On both sides.  Then they can start spending that money on rebuilding.

 

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

No you do not appear to be a Putin sympathizer (though you might be), more a weak morally incoherent appeaser like Britain's Neville Chamberlain who thought that wickedness could be brought off by (someone else's) sacrifice. It couldn't then and it can't now.

 

 

What I'm not is an idiot. The fact that Russia is steadily moving west and the Kursk salient has collapsed has nothing to do with appeasement. It's reality which is something some on here have seem to have completely lost sight of.

52 minutes ago, TedG said:

Jealous?

Nah, I don't want to grab your tip

On 3/11/2025 at 6:07 PM, BexMan said:

If the aim is to save lives, stopping the flow of information to Ukraine will have the opposite effect. Stopping the supply of defensive Patriot missiles to protect against incoming missiles will also cost lives. The Russians are now going after the Patriot launch systems, so Ukraines ability to defend itself, and save lives, is now being permanently degraded.

It'll stop as soon as Zelensky agrees to negotiate. That he will be at a disadvantage compared to prior to the invasion is his fault.

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It'll stop as soon as Zelensky agrees to negotiate. That he will be at a disadvantage compared to prior to the invasion is his fault.

Zelenky's not the problem. He'll negotiate he has no choice. Putin is the problem. He wants an end to the war not a ceasefire and wants most of the territory he's captured.

34 minutes ago, xylophone said:

All agreed, signed and sealed by trump and co.........I can explain it for you but I can't understand it for you. Try a little harder dude.

Dude…you are wrong.  Biden made the final call.  

16 minutes ago, NumbNut said:

Nah, I don't want to grab your tip

You sure? 

5 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Zelenky's not the problem. He'll negotiate he has no choice. Putin is the problem. He wants an end to the war not a ceasefire and wants most of the territory he's captured.

Putin's winning. Would the US have just stopped after Coral Sea ( they won ) and let the Japanese carry on elsewhere?