1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, you could have, you just did not want to. 

Thanks for that stunning insight. 

On 6/5/2025 at 2:23 AM, grumpyoldman said:

We'll give you Trump ! He'll make big talk of solving everything in a couple weeks. We're shipping those illegal immigrants out (yea, so far .0000000005% of them) see that, keep your eyes there, meanwhile don't look over here, tax cuts for the rich, cuts in health care for the poor, 2.6 trillion added to an already out of control deficit.

 

Bear in mind that the Democrat-Marxists go Judge-shopping to find a district court judge who will block the deportations. That's the problem. The US justice system is controlled too much by the Far Left Marxists and Communists.

On 6/5/2025 at 1:26 AM, Kinnock said:

... instead of just saying "this isn't true" and down voting others ..   how about proving you are right?

 

He doesn't need to prove himself right. You have done it for him in your previous post.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't go back the UK for all the rice in china. I give it 10 to 15 years and British white people will be a minority. It was a dump when I left 30 years ago and the only thing it has been good for since, is just getting worse. There was once a time people could look forward to the future. All they can do now is look back on a once glorious past, with envy.

I live in north Manchester and I'm afraid his description is a mirror of how areas have become ghettoes of crime drugs begging.  There are about 80% of the shops either Kabab curry or Turkish barbers far to many to sustain profit legally . The car washes get raided all the time by immigration. Not withstanding that the local Jewish areas have now been taken over by the Asian population and the Jewish population have moved further North. I want to move permanently to Thailand but my thai wife loves the UK so it's three months in the winter in Udon Thani .

so his description isn't racist but a fair description of what it's like living under a Trotsky government and previously under a failed Tory one.

On 6/4/2025 at 11:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

I arrived in Bangkok from Isaarn the day before and stayed at Novotel Sukhumvit 4 area of Nana. Good hotel, but it's still Nana plaza, and no getting away from that.

 

Plush rooms, but I think I will revert to Nana hotel in the future, as I say, you can't escape the area.

 

I left Thailand, and I am on retirement extension, but left using the e gates without a hitch.

 

I was actually on a free flight this time using Avios points with Qatar and able to choose seats free of charge, due to Gold membership.

 

Not only that, but I was on the A380 as far as Doha and opted for the front seat 40A downstairs with loads of legroom. I was then on the A350, Doha to Manchester, again a decent seat with good legroom.

 

I was travelling alone as my other half chose not to come even though she has a 10-year tourist visa (more later).

 

Both flights were very good, great attentive staff and decent planes. I was a bit worried as Qatar have been in the news lately for not so good reviews. I found everything to be great, to be honest.

 

The weather in the UK for my three weeks was amazing, and I was very fortunate to have caught a good spring.

 

Now the bad stuff.

 

Supermarket prices have gone through the roof since my visit last year, and prices were very noticeable and much higher than previous visits. Drinking in decent places, unless you want to spend three weeks in Wetherspoon's, which I didn't, you don't get much change from a fiver for a pint.

 

Outside the supermarkets, I visited about three different store brands from Tesco to Asda during my time there, plenty of beggars asking for change, These were white British people, many on drugs. It was like rough areas of the USA we see on TV.

 

I drove past and saw queues outside food banks. I was told by my son, that many were not desperate, they were begging food then selling it cheap to buy drugs,

 

We drove through an area where I was brought up as a child, which has now become a Pakistani stronghold, and they have built a large mosque. It was unrecognizable. Litter everywhere on the streets, as well as discarded sofas, fridges, just dumped anywhere and everywhere. It was like a filthy slum. There were rats scurrying around and these were visible in the daytime. Overflowing rubbish bins from takeaway shops, the towns are full of them, not sealed and food waste on the floor.

 

The town centres and city centres have been overrun by drug addicts aggressively asking people for money in the streets and not a policeman in sight.

 

I was also stopped by shoplifters selling everything from cheap perfume to bulk packs of washing powder.

 

There were groups of East Europeans on street corners, leering at passers-by. They were obviously up to no good.

 

The city centres, I visited a few, are now full of vape shops or alleged '  TURKISH BARBER SHOPS '  which are not Turkish, they are Pakistani money laundering shops that only take cash.

 

All the shops of yesteryear are gone. Everybody buys online. Town and city centres are no longer family friendly.

 

I saw women in the towns with children and babies, holding and waving bottles of booze and drunk at 11am in the morning.

 

A couple of what used to be good hotels in the centre are now fully occupied with migrants.

 

I was told the government is offering HMO owners, (houses for multiple occupancy) 50 GBP per room per night to house migrants on a 5-year contract.

 

I did take a trip out and up to North Yorkshire, and I was in the England of old, and it was refreshing. Those people are living in a different universe. Horse riders out for a canter, lovely food based pubs with staff with impeccable manners and clean streets and no migrants.

 

I must state I was there for business reasons, but I have never been as happy to get on a plane back to Thailand.

 

Now, do you wonder why my other half said she didn't want to go and thought it better I went alone, and she would look after the farmstead and her mother. I don't blame her, nor can I understand any Thai wanting to visit the UK. 

 

The trip was heartbreaking.

 

However, Kier Starmer and his millionaire lefties cabinet colleagues are not seeing any of this. They are living far away in leafy suburbs, driving around in police convoys with armed bodyguards, oblivious as to what is going on in the North of England.

 

On 6/5/2025 at 1:59 AM, it is what it is said:

 

tbh, living in issan would seriously do my head in. but as they say, horses for courses.

I am in issan, and it's seriously boring, and seriously nothing to see. Maybe a visit to dinosaur museum.  Where they have alot of plastic dinosaur 🦕 bones, and of course the farrang have to pay a donation with your photograph taken. (Give it a miss).

4 minutes ago, willip said:

 

I am in issan, and it's seriously boring, and seriously nothing to see. Maybe a visit to dinosaur museum.  Where they have alot of plastic dinosaur 🦕 bones, and of course the farrang have to pay a donation with your photograph taken. (Give it a miss).

Each to their own!!

What are you looking for?

I have lived in Issaan 15 years, maybe I can help you 

On 6/4/2025 at 11:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

I arrived in Bangkok from Isaarn the day before and stayed at Novotel Sukhumvit 4 area of Nana. Good hotel, but it's still Nana plaza, and no getting away from that.

 

Plush rooms, but I think I will revert to Nana hotel in the future, as I say, you can't escape the area.

 

I left Thailand, and I am on retirement extension, but left using the e gates without a hitch.

 

I was actually on a free flight this time using Avios points with Qatar and able to choose seats free of charge, due to Gold membership.

 

Not only that, but I was on the A380 as far as Doha and opted for the front seat 40A downstairs with loads of legroom. I was then on the A350, Doha to Manchester, again a decent seat with good legroom.

 

I was travelling alone as my other half chose not to come even though she has a 10-year tourist visa (more later).

 

Both flights were very good, great attentive staff and decent planes. I was a bit worried as Qatar have been in the news lately for not so good reviews. I found everything to be great, to be honest.

 

The weather in the UK for my three weeks was amazing, and I was very fortunate to have caught a good spring.

 

Now the bad stuff.

 

Supermarket prices have gone through the roof since my visit last year, and prices were very noticeable and much higher than previous visits. Drinking in decent places, unless you want to spend three weeks in Wetherspoon's, which I didn't, you don't get much change from a fiver for a pint.

 

Outside the supermarkets, I visited about three different store brands from Tesco to Asda during my time there, plenty of beggars asking for change, These were white British people, many on drugs. It was like rough areas of the USA we see on TV.

 

I drove past and saw queues outside food banks. I was told by my son, that many were not desperate, they were begging food then selling it cheap to buy drugs,

 

We drove through an area where I was brought up as a child, which has now become a Pakistani stronghold, and they have built a large mosque. It was unrecognizable. Litter everywhere on the streets, as well as discarded sofas, fridges, just dumped anywhere and everywhere. It was like a filthy slum. There were rats scurrying around and these were visible in the daytime. Overflowing rubbish bins from takeaway shops, the towns are full of them, not sealed and food waste on the floor.

 

The town centres and city centres have been overrun by drug addicts aggressively asking people for money in the streets and not a policeman in sight.

 

I was also stopped by shoplifters selling everything from cheap perfume to bulk packs of washing powder.

 

There were groups of East Europeans on street corners, leering at passers-by. They were obviously up to no good.

 

The city centres, I visited a few, are now full of vape shops or alleged '  TURKISH BARBER SHOPS '  which are not Turkish, they are Pakistani money laundering shops that only take cash.

 

All the shops of yesteryear are gone. Everybody buys online. Town and city centres are no longer family friendly.

 

I saw women in the towns with children and babies, holding and waving bottles of booze and drunk at 11am in the morning.

 

A couple of what used to be good hotels in the centre are now fully occupied with migrants.

 

I was told the government is offering HMO owners, (houses for multiple occupancy) 50 GBP per room per night to house migrants on a 5-year contract.

 

I did take a trip out and up to North Yorkshire, and I was in the England of old, and it was refreshing. Those people are living in a different universe. Horse riders out for a canter, lovely food based pubs with staff with impeccable manners and clean streets and no migrants.

 

I must state I was there for business reasons, but I have never been as happy to get on a plane back to Thailand.

 

Now, do you wonder why my other half said she didn't want to go and thought it better I went alone, and she would look after the farmstead and her mother. I don't blame her, nor can I understand any Thai wanting to visit the UK. 

 

The trip was heartbreaking.

 

However, Kier Starmer and his millionaire lefties cabinet colleagues are not seeing any of this. They are living far away in leafy suburbs, driving around in police convoys with armed bodyguards, oblivious as to what is going on in the North of England.

 

On 6/4/2025 at 11:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

I arrived in Bangkok from Isaarn the day before and stayed at Novotel Sukhumvit 4 area of Nana. Good hotel, but it's still Nana plaza, and no getting away from that.

 

Plush rooms, but I think I will revert to Nana hotel in the future, as I say, you can't escape the area.

 

I left Thailand, and I am on retirement extension, but left using the e gates without a hitch.

 

I was actually on a free flight this time using Avios points with Qatar and able to choose seats free of charge, due to Gold membership.

 

Not only that, but I was on the A380 as far as Doha and opted for the front seat 40A downstairs with loads of legroom. I was then on the A350, Doha to Manchester, again a decent seat with good legroom.

 

I was travelling alone as my other half chose not to come even though she has a 10-year tourist visa (more later).

 

Both flights were very good, great attentive staff and decent planes. I was a bit worried as Qatar have been in the news lately for not so good reviews. I found everything to be great, to be honest.

 

The weather in the UK for my three weeks was amazing, and I was very fortunate to have caught a good spring.

 

Now the bad stuff.

 

Supermarket prices have gone through the roof since my visit last year, and prices were very noticeable and much higher than previous visits. Drinking in decent places, unless you want to spend three weeks in Wetherspoon's, which I didn't, you don't get much change from a fiver for a pint.

 

Outside the supermarkets, I visited about three different store brands from Tesco to Asda during my time there, plenty of beggars asking for change, These were white British people, many on drugs. It was like rough areas of the USA we see on TV.

 

I drove past and saw queues outside food banks. I was told by my son, that many were not desperate, they were begging food then selling it cheap to buy drugs,

 

We drove through an area where I was brought up as a child, which has now become a Pakistani stronghold, and they have built a large mosque. It was unrecognizable. Litter everywhere on the streets, as well as discarded sofas, fridges, just dumped anywhere and everywhere. It was like a filthy slum. There were rats scurrying around and these were visible in the daytime. Overflowing rubbish bins from takeaway shops, the towns are full of them, not sealed and food waste on the floor.

 

The town centres and city centres have been overrun by drug addicts aggressively asking people for money in the streets and not a policeman in sight.

 

I was also stopped by shoplifters selling everything from cheap perfume to bulk packs of washing powder.

 

There were groups of East Europeans on street corners, leering at passers-by. They were obviously up to no good.

 

The city centres, I visited a few, are now full of vape shops or alleged '  TURKISH BARBER SHOPS '  which are not Turkish, they are Pakistani money laundering shops that only take cash.

 

All the shops of yesteryear are gone. Everybody buys online. Town and city centres are no longer family friendly.

 

I saw women in the towns with children and babies, holding and waving bottles of booze and drunk at 11am in the morning.

 

A couple of what used to be good hotels in the centre are now fully occupied with migrants.

 

I was told the government is offering HMO owners, (houses for multiple occupancy) 50 GBP per room per night to house migrants on a 5-year contract.

 

I did take a trip out and up to North Yorkshire, and I was in the England of old, and it was refreshing. Those people are living in a different universe. Horse riders out for a canter, lovely food based pubs with staff with impeccable manners and clean streets and no migrants.

 

I must state I was there for business reasons, but I have never been as happy to get on a plane back to Thailand.

 

Now, do you wonder why my other half said she didn't want to go and thought it better I went alone, and she would look after the farmstead and her mother. I don't blame her, nor can I understand any Thai wanting to visit the UK. 

 

The trip was heartbreaking.

 

However, Kier Starmer and his millionaire lefties cabinet colleagues are not seeing any of this. They are living far away in leafy suburbs, driving around in police convoys with armed bodyguards, oblivious as to what is going on in the North of England.

We drove through an area where I was brought up as a child, which has now become a Pakistani stronghold,   Kensington in Liverpool, By any chance M8...??

25 minutes ago, sirhowie said:

I live in north Manchester and I'm afraid his description is a mirror of how areas have become ghettoes of crime drugs begging.  There are about 80% of the shops either Kabab curry or Turkish barbers far to many to sustain profit legally . The car washes get raided all the time by immigration. Not withstanding that the local Jewish areas have now been taken over by the Asian population and the Jewish population have moved further North. I want to move permanently to Thailand but my thai wife loves the UK so it's three months in the winter in Udon Thani .

so his description isn't racist but a fair description of what it's like living under a Trotsky government and previously under a failed Tory one.

so his description isn't racist but a fair description of what it's like living under a Trotsky government...Who are Doing SFA To make it any better !!.......Starmer OUT !!!

On 6/5/2025 at 12:49 AM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    That isnt true . 

Maybe it's NOT, They just put The Migrants in 4* & 5* Hotels with 3 Meals a DAY, Fook Me, They are getting MORE Than the Natives..

1 minute ago, Blueman1 said:

Maybe it's NOT, They just put The Migrants in 4* & 5* Hotels with 3 Meals a DAY, Fook Me, They are getting MORE Than the Natives..

Don't be so greedy

On 6/5/2025 at 1:20 AM, Kinnock said:

I don't understand why some posters feel compelled to defend the obvious decline of the UK?  Unless you choose a few specific areas, such as the Cotswolds, North Yorkshire or the Lake District, most UK towns and cities are depressing wastelands of closed businesses, porn brokers, pound shops and illegal immigrant hostels.

 

And when travelling via the Islamic Borough of Heathrow, the issues are really highlighted.  Have you ever arrived into Suvarnabhumi and been greeted by a Pakistani Immigration Officer welcoming you to Thailand?

 

I only go to the UK for essential visits, it's too depressing.

 

 porn brokers....It's PAWN......And when travelling via the Islamic Borough of Heathrow  555 " Love It "

Have you ever arrived into Suvarnabhumi and been greeted by a Pakistani Immigration Officer welcoming you to Thailand? No, Can't say I Have.....

On 6/5/2025 at 1:59 AM, it is what it is said:

 

tbh, living in issan would seriously do my head in. but as they say, horses for courses.

I've been Here for 9 Years now, It's NOT Really that bad Yeno.....

1 hour ago, Red Forever said:

No it wasn’t. What I read of it was an increasingly racist rant.

 I bet you believe that all of your perceived misery in UK began on July 4th 2024.

 

Backpedalling and trying to justify your nonsense post, which was entirely without basis.

 

The thread was certainly not racist. Point out the racism in the post? Or is it, you just don't like factual reports?

 

Why would my misery have begun on July 4th 2024?

 

BTW, Where does it say in my post as you incorrectly asserted that I flew into Heathrow and was met by a Pakistani immigration officer?

 

You are just a clown who cannot read, aren't you?

 

You then refuse to acknowledge your mistake like a typical Labour lefty 

2 hours ago, Stocky said:

I moved to SE Asia for work 

So did I ..... but chose to stay after the contract ended.  I think people only go back to their home country if they have to for financial, family or health reasons.

1 hour ago, Surasak said:

He doesn't need to prove himself right. You have done it for him in your previous post.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't go back the UK for all the rice in china. I give it 10 to 15 years and British white people will be a minority. It was a dump when I left 30 years ago and the only thing it has been good for since, is just getting worse. There was once a time people could look forward to the future. All they can do now is look back on a once glorious past, with envy.

Unfortunately I have to agree .... successive governments have destroyed the country.

47 minutes ago, Blueman1 said:

I've been Here for 9 Years now, It's NOT Really that bad Yeno.....

 

I've been up here in isaarn since 2006, believe me, there was NOTHING here then.

 

I like it. And I came from a full on life with businesses in Pattaya.

5 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Unfortunately I have to agree .... successive governments have destroyed the country.

 

Well,

 

You are right there, most of them spend more time undoing the policies of the previous government than they do focussing on the important things of the day.

 

Blair was the one who swamped the country with uncontrolled immigration.

48 minutes ago, Blueman1 said:

 porn brokers....It's PAWN......And when travelling via the Islamic Borough of Heathrow  555 " Love It "

Have you ever arrived into Suvarnabhumi and been greeted by a Pakistani Immigration Officer welcoming you to Thailand? No, Can't say I Have.....

I'm sticking with Porn Brokers 😃  Have you seen those seedy, high street 'sex shops' selling videos and toys? 

 

In Thailand a sex shop would have attractive young women behing a glass screen, in UK they have strap-ons and vibrating rubber pussies. .... I heard this from a friend 🤫

 

1 minute ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Well,

 

You are right there, most of them spend more time undoing the policies of the previous government than they do focussing on the important things of the day.

 

Blair was the one who swamped the country with uncontrolled immigration.

Let's not forget what roll the press and academia plays. It is significant. 

1 hour ago, willip said:

 

I am in issan, and it's seriously boring, and seriously nothing to see. Maybe a visit to dinosaur museum.  Where they have alot of plastic dinosaur 🦕 bones, and of course the farrang have to pay a donation with your photograph taken. (Give it a miss).

 

I took some visitors there the other month and there were no donations required.

 

In Isaarn, which covers a vast area with many provinces, you have to get out there and get proactive to see what's going on.

 

There's no Soi 6 or Nana plaza up here, and long may that continue.

 

We do have women's bars, but they aren't in your face screaming "' Hello' hansom man "

 

It's very peaceful and laid back where I live and if a person wants more action, there is Khonkaen, Maha Sarakham, Nakhon Panom, Buri Ram to name but a few.

 

I have just gone 63, and I enjoy my house, the new Gym that has opened, we have a great lake in the centre of town with a running track around it and picnic areas, The lake has some very good clean hotels there at 500 baht a night, it Has restaurants on the lake with live entertainment.

 

We have the rocket festivals, there are all the other festivals throughout the year from Songkran to Loy Krathong,

 

Roi Et airport is the gateway to be in Bangkok in an hour and the ability to fly anywhere in Asia.

 

We live in a great climate, it's laid back.

 

It beats Wigan or Liverpool on a wet Wednesday!.....😁

On 6/5/2025 at 12:43 AM, DonniePeverley said:

What a load of nonsense. 

 

Get yourself of to a racist forum. 

New nickname ; Donny Doo Doo

Get a reality check Doo Doo.

England has always been a brutal place for most of its populace with the exception of the post-war period ending sometime in the 1970s.

Can anyone else think of a golden age? 

The Victorians despite incredible progress most peoples life was a grind (slum conditions, gin alley). People going on about the Irish & Jews and longing for Georgian times.

The inter-war years when the promise of a better life was soon forgotten. People still going on about the Jews & Irish and thinking about Edwardian times.

Since the 1970s we in the west have grabbed as much as we can for ourselves. With some being a lot better at it than others. We then tell those that have not done well that even though your share of the pie is less than before you have to share it with more people.

Sadly you are completely correct, I have been in Shoreditch for a while working and the east end is pretty much as you described.

 

the people commenting that this is not true are incorrect. It is absolutely true - I see it with my own eyes every day.

 

This is the result of Tony Blair’s “integrated society” and opening of the borders, and successive governments doing nothing about it as they don’t want to be branded “racist” as people are doing here to the OP.

 

If people don’t understand that this is not “racist”, it is the truth. Many of the immigrant communities, such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, have a different style of living. It’s not “racist” to realise this.

 

The UK as I remember it from ghe 90s is gone.

On 6/4/2025 at 11:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

Drinking in decent places, unless you want to spend three weeks in Wetherspoon's, which I didn't, you don't get much change from a fiver for a pint.

 

I come from one of the poorer parts of the UK (South Wales) and beer's been that price and above in the nicer pubs since before Covid, nothing new there. 

Whilst not suggesting the UK is great, this description of life in the UK is rubbish.

 

Of course there are cities etc full of immigrants, but you do not have to live there! My town area of Hayling Island Has it's quota of immigrants but they work and get on with life.

 

It's clean and.services work fine 

 

A good choice of pubs at prices relatively unchanged over past years, a pint costs about £3.50 to £5.

 

The weather has been great this year, obviously not like Thailand though 

 

The police never hassle you and are civil when spoken to.

 

I think the issue with some returning for a visit is "rose tinted glasses and memories".

Ike Thailand there is good and bad 

 

I do think though that despite huge price rises and coming taxation changes that I prefer Thailand.

29 minutes ago, Pdavies99 said:

Whilst not suggesting the UK is great, this description of life in the UK is rubbish.

 

Of course there are cities etc full of immigrants, but you do not have to live there! My town area of Hayling Island Has it's quota of immigrants but they work and get on with life.

 

It's clean and.services work fine 

 

A good choice of pubs at prices relatively unchanged over past years, a pint costs about £3.50 to £5.

 

The weather has been great this year, obviously not like Thailand though 

 

The police never hassle you and are civil when spoken to.

 

I think the issue with some returning for a visit is "rose tinted glasses and memories".

Ike Thailand there is good and bad 

 

I do think though that despite huge price rises and coming taxation changes that I prefer Thailand.

 

In my view, the North of England has increasingly and unfairly been burdened with the challenges of rapid migration and limited support infrastructure.

 

This includes both asylum seekers and economic migrants, many of whom have arrived without adequate long-term integration plans in place from the government.

 

Alongside this, some local communities — including sections of the White working class — appear to have lost hope, contributing to a broader sense of decline in certain areas.

 

Someone from the South — for instance, from Hayling Island in Hampshire — may not fully grasp the daily realities or the social and economic shifts happening in towns across the North. But that doesn't mean these issues aren't real or worth discussing.

 

Regarding your immigrant quota, those who work and contribute in Hayling Island, I can assure you that is not the case up North with hotels full of non-working migrants.

 

My family has deep roots in the region.

 

My sons, siblings, and extended family live and work there — they're part of the community, with homes, jobs, and children of their own. I'm still actively involved myself, including through building housing locally, so this isn't a nostalgic or detached perspective. I'm witnessing real, accelerating decline.

 

Where should they move to?   You think it would be that easy to uproot?

 

I'd also like to see the police return to their core function: policing crime. With serious issues like knife and gun violence rising in some areas, it can feel frustrating to see resources diverted to activities that, while symbolic, don't address the growing concerns of safety and law enforcement. Prioritising public protection must come first.

 

On 6/5/2025 at 11:22 AM, lanng khao said:

Just bypass Kensington, anfield, and county road Walton and its happy days,, up the toffees....

Yes M8.....UTFT......

On 6/4/2025 at 11:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

stayed at Novotel Sukhumvit 4 area of Nana. Good hotel,

 

Agreed. One of my favorites. With the Nana Plaza excitement at one end and Benjakiti Park down at the other.

 

Would you mind telling me how you got from there to the airport? Taxi? Hotel taxi? Meter or fixed fare? Price? Novotel shuttle to Nana and BTS/ARL? 

 

I'm looking at the same trip in a week or so and although familiar have never gone Novotel - Swampy.

 

Cheers.

Wetherspoons have some decent pubs. Just got to filter out the bad ones, usually in city centres. Try ones in the suburbs and the countryside.

On 6/4/2025 at 5:42 PM, Scouse123 said:

 

I drove past and saw queues outside food banks. I was told by my son, that many were not desperate, they were begging food then selling it cheap to buy drugs,

 

 

If that is the attitude then us British that still live here don't want you here. For Gods sake nurses are paid so badly they have to go to food banks. Your son doesn't know what he is talking about. May be a few do but "many" is simply rubbish.