1 minute ago, sharot724 said:

 Total BS but at least you went wacky Great joke comment

When you are wrong about Putin invading Europe, think about me still laughing at your absolute idiocy.

Likewise, you do the same about mine if he does invade.

Time will tell who is the nutter/whacker. 

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

When you are wrong about Putin invading Europe, think about me still laughing at your absolute idiocy.

Likewise, you do the same about mine if he does invade.

Time will tell who is the nutter/whacker. 

He's already invaded, Einstein, Happened on 24 February, 2022. You might have missed it.

28 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Trump gave up negotiating unilaterally - he started doing it one at a time - separately with each.  He sent staff to ask Russia what they wanted and then sent staff to ask Ukraine what they wanted. That has now been added together and has been put in front of both of them separately to see what if any common ground exists.  Do not believe anything the media states - both Western aligned and Russian aligned - they both spew propaganda.  

 

IMO Trump will not permit NATO to get involved - he does not want WW3 to start over Ukraine - and the vast majority of People in USA agree that they do not want Americans dying in a war in Europe/China.  If you think China (and India) will not support Russia against the Europeans, then IMO you are very mistaken.  

 

I agree, especially with the reference to media propaganda. This hopeful subject line of "Ukraine peace-plan-written-by Russia" does not yield direct supporting links in any MSM news items that I can find. I'm not sure why these "social" X media posts are accepted as valid links so easily here.

 

Unfortunately, Ukraine may have to trade some ground for peace. I say that because I would expect that Trump has been advised that, if the US backs NATO action in Europe, which looks to be the only way to fully defeat and remove Russia, then that distraction would put regions in very weak positions in other parts of the world. The risks and consequences of a WW3 are far too great right now. 

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I agree, especially with the reference to media propaganda. This hopeful subject line of "Ukraine peace-plan-written-by Russia" does not yield and direct supporting links in any MSM news items that I can find. I'm not sure why these "social" X media posts are accepted as valid links so easily here.

 

Maybe you didn't look hard enough, buddy.

 

'U.S. senators say Marco Rubio told them Trump's Ukraine peace plan is Russia's 'wish list''

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-administration/us-senators-say-secretary-state-marco-rubio-told-trumps-ukraine-peace-rcna245396

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-officials-meeting-with-russian-miami-spurs-questions-about-latest-ukraine-2025-11-22

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I agree, especially with the reference to media propaganda. This hopeful subject line of "Ukraine peace-plan-written-by Russia" does not yield direct supporting links in any MSM news items that I can find. I'm not sure why these "social" X media posts are accepted as valid links so easily here.

 

Unfortunately, Ukraine may have to trade some ground for peace. I say that because I would expect that Trump has been advised that, if the US backs NATO action in Europe, which looks to be the only way to fully defeat and remove Russia, then that distraction would put regions in very weak positions in other parts of the world. The risks and consequences of a WW3 are far too great right now. 

Remember Germany? 

 

Remember Napoleon? 

 

There is no other recipes than fight back on the terms allowed for now. Ukraine is doing that job for all of us, do not forget that.

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I agree, especially with the reference to media propaganda. This hopeful subject line of "Ukraine peace-plan-written-by Russia" does not yield and direct supporting links in any MSM news items that I can find. I'm not sure why these "social" X media posts are accepted as valid links so easily here.

 

Unfortunately, Ukraine may have to trade some ground for peace. I say that because I would expect that Trump has been advised that, if the US backs NATO action in Europe, which looks to be the only way to fully defeat and remove Russia, then that distraction would put regions in very weak positions in other parts of the world. The risks and consequences of a WW3 are far too great right now. 

Good points - take a look below at the last full and free President election results in Ukraine.

Half the country (Eastern) supports Russia and half (Western) supports the West/Europe.

The EU/NATO backed Putin into a corner after over-throwing the elected pro-Russian President. 

Putin annexed Crimea but should have invaded back then - he took far too long - EU/NATO kept pushing.

 

 

Now take a look below at the last full and free Government Election in Ukraine.

This 'war' was inevitable and the warmongers like Cheney in EU/NATO thought it would destroy Russia.

They got that all wrong - just like their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

It is time USA walked away from wars that do not affect them - and Trump is doing just that. 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, BLMFem said:

 

Maybe you didn't look hard enough, buddy.

 

'U.S. senators say Marco Rubio told them Trump's Ukraine peace plan is Russia's 'wish list''

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-administration/us-senators-say-secretary-state-marco-rubio-told-trumps-ukraine-peace-rcna245396

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-officials-meeting-with-russian-miami-spurs-questions-about-latest-ukraine-2025-11-22

 

Meeting with sanctioned Russian resulted in 28-point plan, sources say? Senators say. 

 

All a lot of hearsay. Go away, I say.

 

 

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Meeting with sanctioned Russian resulted in 28-point plan, sources say? Senators say. 

 

All a lot of hearsay. Go away, I say.

 

 

 

Here we go, MAGA head-in-sand time. Nothing to see here, move along!😆

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Remember Germany? 

 

Remember Napoleon? 

 

There is no other recipes than fight back on the terms allowed for now. Ukraine is doing that job for all of us, do not forget that.

 

I am not forgetting anything. The only way Russia could conquer western Europe is by use of unconventional large-scale horror weapons, That's what people should not forget.

Just now, BLMFem said:

 

Here we go, MAGA head-in-sand time. Nothing to see here, move along!😆

 

I bet you can't tag a valid link that bull either.

This 

10 minutes ago, BLMFem said:

Putin invading Europe

 

and this 

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Ukraine is doing that job for all of us

 

are one of the biggest psyop lies ever. Created by all the warmongering groups altogether with mass media to keep people in fear. Every time I see someone repeating this bs I can't believe how easy it to brainwash and manipulate people minds.

42 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If you think China (and India) will not support Russia against the Europeans, then IMO you are very mistaken.  

You're very mistaken if you think China and India will get involved if NATO decided to send troops. 

This says it all.....

4 minutes ago, t0mt0m said:

This 

 

and this 

 

are one of the biggest psyop lies ever. Created by all the warmongering groups altogether with mass media to keep people in fear. Every time I see someone repeating this bs I can't believe how easy it to brainwash and manipulate people minds.

And I have thoughts on people who claim to see what the great unwashed masses can't, but I shall refrain from describing them because I'm a considerate person.

Hope this is appreciated, buddy!

Last week some funky general of 3rd "Republic" scared poor citizens with Russian invasion in the near future. Why? What is so special about that "Republic"? Extra tasty frogs? Croissants and coffee? That Tower? or maybe invaders from Afrika? Dude obviously hides something, otherwise he won't like a rabid baboon in heat: "Russians are coming!" 

1 minute ago, NativeBob said:

Last week some funky general of 3rd "Republic" scared poor citizens with Russian invasion in the near future. Why? What is so special about that "Republic"? Extra tasty frogs? Croissants and coffee? That Tower? or maybe invaders from Afrika? Dude obviously hides something, otherwise he won't like a rabid baboon in heat: "Russians are coming!" 

What????

6 minutes ago, t0mt0m said:

Every time I see someone repeating this bs I can't believe how easy it to brainwash and manipulate people minds.

Easy! Just follow the bouncing balls money. 
a Tip: How was COVID vaccines ordered by von der leign resolved? Supposed to be a very big scandal yet - silence. Money love silence. 

10 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You're very mistaken if you think China and India will get involved if NATO decided to send troops. 

This is probably correct. China and India and the US/Europe ulimately have too much to lose economically to go for it against each other to the max. If they do disagree then they will do things on the sly... not openly.

You also have to remember that China and India hate each other with a passion, so they will not call a truce to gang-up openly and officially against their greatest trading partners... no way.

In the future, it will all descend into grey-zone tactics and trying to do stuff without anyone noticing or there's no evidence. These days, it's all the 4D chess stuff going on... and open conflict between big players is unlikely unless it really hits the fan. The media loves to scare everyone, but all the players know what the stakes are and are reluctant to risk destruction of everything... tend to see a lot of brinksmanship and bullying/threats now.

 

12 minutes ago, t0mt0m said:

This 

 

and this 

 

are one of the biggest psyop lies ever. Created by all the warmongering groups altogether with mass media to keep people in fear. Every time I see someone repeating this bs I can't believe how easy it to brainwash and manipulate people minds.

What you saying, Ukraine should just roll over? Nice try Ivan, nice try 

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You're very mistaken if you think China and India will get involved if NATO decided to send troops. 

 

Well, it is a nice opportunity to take South China sea while Nato is busy up North.

Ain't it the truth...

14 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Easy! Just follow the bouncing balls money. 
a Tip: How was COVID vaccines ordered by von der leign resolved? Supposed to be a very big scandal yet - silence. Money love silence. 

I just love how you conspiracy nutters connoisseurs just bombard us with credible links to support your (in)credible claims.

Respect!👍

The Polish PM has questions.😂

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

This is probably correct. China and India and the US/Europe ulimately have too much to lose economically to go for it against each other to the max. If they do disagree then they will do things on the sly... not openly.

You also have to remember that China and India hate each other with a passion, so they will not call a truce to gang-up openly and officially against their greatest trading partners... no way.

In the future, it will all descend into grey-zone tactics and trying to do stuff without anyone noticing or there's no evidence. These days it's all the 4D chess stuff going on... and open conflict between big players is unlikely unless it really hits the fan. The media loves to scare everyone, but all the players know what the stakes are and are reluctant to risk destruction of everything... tend to see a lot of brinksmanship and bullying/threats now.

 

 

How much more do India hate China than Europe? Stranger things have happened before. Taliban had support from USA when Soviet invaded, and then support from Russia when Nato invaded. 

This!👇

 

 

https://x.com/Microinteracti1/status/1992486412881465784?s=20

 

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

 

How much more do India hate China than Europe? Stranger things have happened before. Taliban had support from USA when Soviet invaded, and then support from Russia when Nato invaded. 

Is that your crystal ball talking? All speculation and there is nothing to support that line of thinking at the moment.

24 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I am not forgetting anything. The only way Russia could conquer western Europe is by use of unconventional large-scale horror weapons, That's what people should not forget.

This is what some people beleive here. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good points - take a look below at the last full and free President election results in Ukraine.

Half the country (Eastern) supports Russia and half (Western) supports the West/Europe.

The EU/NATO backed Putin into a corner after over-throwing the elected pro-Russian President. 

Putin annexed Crimea but should have invaded back then - he took far too long - EU/NATO kept pushing.

 

 

Now take a look below at the last full and free Government Election in Ukraine.

This 'war' was inevitable and the warmongers like Cheney in EU/NATO thought it would destroy Russia.

They got that all wrong - just like their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

It is time USA walked away from wars that do not affect them - and Trump is doing just that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Without a link those are just random images.

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

This is what some people beleive here. 

 

 

 

This is who some people believe here.

 

Trump is frustrated with both sides refusal to commit to a peace agreement. His staff has gained from both sides what they want in a peace agreement, and he is seeking them to reach an agreement by listing all those things and asking them to negotiate from there. It is in a state of flux and it will change as things progress - there is no  set in concrete 'deal' with a 'take it or leave it' on the table.  Here is the list of things that Trump's Team has put together - based on what they think is a great starting point from which to negotiate. Trump has NOT made a plan and handed it to Zelensky - unlike what some of the media is saying lying.  Too many people here on this forum automatically believe any media stroy stating that as fact - it is not fact.  Here is the full list - read them and then you will understand the truth about what has been put on the table. 

 

1. Ukraine's sovereignty will be confirmed.

2. A comprehensive non-aggression agreement will be concluded between Russia, Ukraine and Europe. All ambiguities of the last 30 years will be considered settled.

3. It is expected that Russia will not invade neighboring countries and NATO will not expand further.

4. A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.

5. Ukraine will receive reliable security guarantees.

6. The size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be limited to 600,000 personnel.

7. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution that it will not join NATO, and NATO agrees to include in its statutes a provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future.

8. NATO agrees not to station troops in Ukraine.

9. European fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. The U.S. guarantee:

• The U.S. will receive compensation for the guarantee;
• If Ukraine invades Russia, it will lose the guarantee;
• If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a decisive coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be reinstated, recognition of the new territory and all other benefits of this deal will be revoked;
• If Ukraine launches a missile at Moscow or St. Petersburg without cause, the security guarantee will be deemed invalid.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will receive short-term preferential access to the European market while this issue is being considered.

12. A powerful global package of measures to rebuild Ukraine, including but not limited to:

• The creation of a Ukraine Development Fund to invest in fast-growing industries, including technology, data centers, and artificial intelligence.
• The United States will cooperate with Ukraine to jointly rebuild, develop, modernize, and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, including pipelines and storage facilities.
• Joint efforts to rehabilitate war-affected areas for the restoration, reconstruction and modernization of cities and residential areas.
• Infrastructure development.
• Extraction of minerals and natural resources.
• The World Bank will develop a special financing package to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia will be reintegrated into the global economy:

• The lifting of sanctions will be discussed and agreed upon in stages and on a case-by-case basis.
• The United States will enter into a long-term economic cooperation agreement for mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, artificial intelligence, data centers, rare earth metal extraction projects in the Arctic, and other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
• Russia will be invited to rejoin the G8.

14. Frozen funds will be used as follows:

 

• $100 billion in frozen Russian assets will be invested in US-led efforts to rebuild and invest in Ukraine;
• The US will receive 50% of the profits from this venture. Europe will add $100 billion to increase the amount of investment available for Ukraine's reconstruction. Frozen European funds will be unfrozen. The remainder of the frozen Russian funds will be invested in a separate US-Russian investment vehicle that will implement joint projects in specific areas. This fund will be aimed at strengthening relations and increasing common interests to create a strong incentive not to return to conflict.

15. A joint American-Russian working group on security issues will be established to promote and ensure compliance with all provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will enshrine in law its policy of non-aggression towards Europe and Ukraine.

17. The United States and Russia will agree to extend the validity of treaties on the non-proliferation and control of nuclear weapons, including the START I Treaty.

18. Ukraine agrees to be a non-nuclear state in accordance with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

19. The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant will be launched under the supervision of the IAEA, and the electricity produced will be distributed equally between Russia and Ukraine — 50:50.

20. Both countries undertake to implement educational programs in schools and society aimed at promoting understanding and tolerance of different cultures and eliminating racism and prejudice:

• Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
• Both countries will agree to abolish all discriminatory measures and guarantee the rights of Ukrainian and Russian media and education. (Note: Similar ideas were incorporated into Trump's 2020 Israel-Palestine peace plan).
• All Nazi ideology and activities must be rejected and prohibited.

21. Territories:

• Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk will be recognized as de facto Russian, including by the United States.
• Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the line of contact, which will mean de facto recognition along the line of contact.
• Russia will relinquish other agreed territories it controls outside the five regions.
• Ukrainian forces will withdraw from the part of Donetsk Oblast that they currently control, and this withdrawal zone will be considered a neutral demilitarized buffer zone, internationally recognized as territory belonging to the Russian Federation. Russian forces will not enter this demilitarized zone.

22. After agreeing on future territorial arrangements, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply in the event of a breach of this commitment.

23. Russia will not prevent Ukraine from using the Dnieper River for commercial activities, and agreements will be reached on the free transport of grain across the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve outstanding issues:

• All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on an 'all for all' basis.
• All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children.
• A family reunification program will be implemented.
• Measures will be taken to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections in 100 days.

26. All parties involved in this conflict will receive full amnesty for their actions during the war and agree not to make any claims or consider any complaints in the future.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by the Peace Council, headed by President Donald J. Trump. Sanctions will be imposed for violations.

28. Once all parties agree to this memorandum, the ceasefire will take effect immediately after both sides retreat to agreed points to begin implementation of the agreement.

 

What does seem clear to me in regards to Trump's position, is that his team has told Zelensky that his continued refusal to demand that Russia leave and hand back all territory to Ukraine, including Crimea, is not an acceptable position if he wants the ongoing support of USA.  Ukraine must negotiate from reality - if they and Europe were going to remove Russian forces they would have done so already.  It has been almost 4 years and it is time to negotiate a deal - the world has had enough and wants this war to end. 

 

I think if Zelensky refuses a deal that Trump thinks is reasonable, he will walk away from Ukraine completely.

 

I also think if Putin refuses a deal that Trump thinks is reasonable, he will double down on Russia and destroy their economy.  Trump will impose huge tariffs on all countries that trade with Russia, and send in a military blockage to stop all trade vessels leaving or arriving in Russia - with the full support of EU, NATO and the UN.  Trump will not use military force (unless the USA blockade is attacked), but he will use every economic means at his disposal.