No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[tim77]

Because the dependent based on retirement, in their opinion is against the Immigration Act and Ministerial Regulations ( which is superior to the National Police Oder 606). Bkk Immigration feels any permit granted before by them should never have been approved and the Police Order was wrong in allowing it. Immigration cannot allow someone to get a extension even if they have been granted one before as a dependent, as the superior law states they must not allow it. Immigration is not changing the law when they denied someone the permit, in their opinion, they now are just using the correct interpretation of the Immigration Act and Ministerial Regulations and ignoring in this case the National Police Order in regards to dependents based on retirement.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

But . . . unless I am reading the Ministerial Regulation incorrectly . . . the use of dependent visa based on retirement is not prohibited by the Ministerial Regulation . . .it is simply not addressed.

And yes . . . I do notice that you correctly and diplomatically used the phrase "in their opinion" twice.

Funny times in Thailand.

[Sunbelt Asia]

But . . . unless I am reading the Ministerial Regulation incorrectly . . . the use of dependent visa based on retirement is not prohibited by the Ministerial Regulation . . .it is simply not addressed.

It is prohibited because in the Ministerial Regulations and Immigration Act, the dependent on retirement is not stated as one of the ways a foreigner can stay in Thailand.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Thailand]

But . . . unless I am reading the Ministerial Regulation incorrectly . . . the use of dependent visa based on retirement is not prohibited by the Ministerial Regulation . . .it is simply not addressed.

It is prohibited because in the Ministerial Regulations and Immigration Act, the dependent on retirement is not stated as one of the ways a foreigner can stay in Thailand.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Sunbelt

It was mentioned in an earlier post re a farang couple doing the split year renewals, at least three months apart and simply transferring the 800K between one and others bank for renewal of retirement visa - is that viable for the future?

I know of one couple here that already do it, simply because they arrived at different times.

[Guest #1man]

[News-1]

It’s best to make your enquiries at Pattaya immigration office for the latest visa information and related matters

Chat rooms not always reliable The ministry of foreign affairs has now cancelled its instruction that the letters issued by foreign embassies to “guarantee” the income necessary for one year retirement visas must be submitted to its Bangkok office for verification. The ministry had earlier announced that applicants for this particular visa from October 1 upcoming would need to journey to its office in Bangkok at 123 Chaeng Watthana Road in order for officials there to rubber-stamp the embassy letter. Expats aged over 50 with retirement visas were overjoyed at the news as the looming requirement was causing confusion and it was not clear whether the pensioner would need to go to Bangkok in person or could send someone else with power of attorney.

The ministry did not cite any reasons for its change of heart, but the sheer volume of applications and the unpopularity of the move have been suggested. However, immigration officials stated that the embassy letters now had a validity of only 12 months and could not be reused. This means effectively that retirees will now need an embassy letter every year unless they choose to keep 800,000 baht in cash in an accessible account in a Thai bank. In this case, there is no requirement to show income via an embassy letter, provided the 800,000 baht was deposited not less than three months before the first application was made. There is no time constraint on subsequent applications. But other categories of one year visa holders, such as those holding the “married man’s” extension or foreigners with work permits issued by the labour office may still need some documentation stamped by the ministry of foreign affairs in Bangkok. They are advised to consult their local immigration bureau or their legal advisers if they are in doubt about their individual status and the documentation required. In recent days, a separate matter has been posted by individuals on some internet sites and chat rooms. It has been claimed variously that the foreign wives or foreign dependants of a retirement visa applicant will now need to submit their own separate applications and no longer be able to “piggy-back” the main retiree. The suggestion on the internet was that even the foreign wife of an applicant for a retirement visa would need her own income or cash lump sum in her own right. But immigration sources say they have no information on any new ruling. As of mid September, Pattaya immigration office was processing such applications in the normal way and without any changes. “We have had no new instructions,” said one officer who handles visas for retirees. In other words, foreign wives of applicants for retirement visas can continue to “piggy-back” provided they can show their marriage certificate and have a valid non-immigrant visa at the time of application for the extension. An immigration source said “To put it simply, there appear to be no changes to retirement visas at present except that embassy letters now need renewing every year on the instruction of the ministry of foreign affairs.” People who are applying for one year extensions because they are married to a Thai or have Thai dependants, or those who have Thai work permits issued by the Labour office, need to check their personal position with the immigration bureau to make sure they have their paperwork spot on.

Source : http://www.pattaya2day.com/

[Mobi]

I read this yesterday, and to a large extent, this report of the current attitude/thinking by Pattaya immigration was dealt with on this thread many pages ago.

We will have to wait and see what is really going down, but I would rather trust the inside information from Sunbelt than this report from Pattaya Today.

Frankly I wouldn't trust Pattaya immigration further than I could throw a passport.

However, I did find a little snippet in the article quite interesting:

.....provided the 800,000 baht was deposited not less than three months before the first application was made. There is no time constraint on subsequent applications.

I wonder what this means? if anything? It seems to be suggesting that once you have been issued with a retirement extension by having 800K in the bank for 3, months, on subsequent renewals it is not necessary for the money to have been there for 3 months.

Probably nonsense, but if not, the what does it mean?

Anyone?

Edited September 17, 2007 by Mobi

[BlackJack]

I read this yesterday, and to a large extent, this report of the current attitude/thinking by Pattaya immigration was dealt with on this thread many pages ago.

We will have to wait and see what is really going down, but I would rather trust the inside information from Sunbelt than this report from Pattaya Today.

Frankly I wouldn't trust Pattaya immigration further than I could throw a passport.

However, I did find a little snippet in the article quite interesting:

.....provided the 800,000 baht was deposited not less than three months before the first application was made. There is no time constraint on subsequent applications.

I wonder what this means? if anything? It seems to be suggesting that once you have been issued with a retirement extension by having 800K in the bank for 3, months, on subsequent renewals it is not necessary for the money to have been there for 3 months.

Probably nonsense, but if not, the what does it mean?

Anyone?

I checked around the world at other Thai Embassy's and everything is up for interpretation

ie when applying in another country for a retirement visa you need to have 800k in the bank and a bank letter / or 65K PM

but which bank - the one in the country you are applying from or the bank in Thailand

BUT wait - how can you set up a Thai bank account from the country you are applying for visa from???

NOW i am confused.

[Maestro]

Probably nonsense, but if not, the what does it mean?

As I remember it, Lopburi has already posted a correction to the wrong information in the quote you give. Because you did not link the quote I cannot find the quoted post immediately.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

I checked around the world at other Thai Embassy's and everything is up for interpretation

ie when applying in another country for a retirement visa you need to have 800k in the bank and a bank letter / or 65K PM

but which bank - the one in the country you are applying from or the bank in Thailand

Link, please. If the website of a Thai consulate states that requirement for a visa, then the information is wrong. This is requirement is for an extension of stay, ie after having entered Thailand.

--

Maestro

[Mobi]

I checked around the world at other Thai Embassy's and everything is up for interpretation

ie when applying in another country for a retirement visa you need to have 800k in the bank and a bank letter / or 65K PM

but which bank - the one in the country you are applying from or the bank in Thailand

Link, please. If the website of a Thai consulate states that requirement for a visa, then the information is wrong. This is requirement is for an extension of stay, ie after having entered Thailand.

--

Maestro

Sorry, it's post No.876, 2nd para, line 6 - a quote from the Pattaya Today - but I have no idea where they got it from.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Mobi

[gdhm]

[News-1]

It’s best to make your enquiries at Pattaya immigration office for the latest visa information and related matters

Chat rooms not always reliable The ministry of foreign affairs has now cancelled its instruction that the letters issued by foreign embassies to “guarantee” the income necessary for one year retirement visas must be submitted to its Bangkok office for verification. The ministry had earlier announced that applicants for this particular visa from October 1 upcoming would need to journey to its office in Bangkok at 123 Chaeng Watthana Road in order for officials there to rubber-stamp the embassy letter. Expats aged over 50 with retirement visas were overjoyed at the news as the looming requirement was causing confusion and it was not clear whether the pensioner would need to go to Bangkok in person or could send someone else with power of attorney.

The ministry did not cite any reasons for its change of heart, but the sheer volume of applications and the unpopularity of the move have been suggested. However, immigration officials stated that the embassy letters now had a validity of only 12 months and could not be reused. This means effectively that retirees will now need an embassy letter every year unless they choose to keep 800,000 baht in cash in an accessible account in a Thai bank....

If this report turns out to be true then I personally (and many others I suspect) would probably have preferred the need to visit Bangkok once. The original reporting was saying once done the stamped letter could be used indefinitely.

Now if you are a UK citizen where the UK Embassy requests you have some form of proof of your income before it will do a letter you will need:

1) a yearly letter from your income source assuming they will do one (maybe charged or not)

2) a yearly letter from the UK Embassy. If postal you are looking at 2500 baht (UK Embassy like most have astonishingly profitable Exchange rates)

3) the Visa fee 1,900 baht

4) Photos 100 baht

5) Bank guarantee letter if income form overseas need topping up 180 baht

6) the trip to "local" Imm.Office often not near for many say coach trip return for 2 (they like seeing the wife if married) 1200 baht approx

Total just under 6000 baht EVERY year. Additionally you must also report your address every 90 days with several offices trying to make you do that in person (and not via the post)

My total amounts to not that much under the Thai national monthly wage average and all for JUST a single ONE year Visa.

In my total I have not added any donations or whatever you wish to call them which many have been asked for.

I was told by my best friend in Thailand and his Thai wife today were invited to offer food and an inconspicuous under the table donation after processing their Visa.

I have been told by several other acquaintances that these requests or hints are regretfully much more common than reported or believed. VERY FEW talk officially about their own experiences as they understandably, do not wish to risk the wrath of their local Imm. offices if identified. We all know nothing could ever be proved by the Visa seeker if they reported a request or hint for a donation as we are officially requested to do so by Immigration. The honest amongst us it seems just cannot win whatever we do.

I wish to point out that I am NOT suggesting these requests for donations are in any way officially or unofficially supported, endorsed or are considered the tiniest bit acceptable by the Thai Immigration Authorities.

I suspect an anonymous poll in this Forum would show some very interesting/disturbing statistics and highly educational to the Thai Immigration Authority. I accept polls are not proof but they often indicate a trend.

Happy relaxing retirement in the LOS for all. Soon we will be spending all our time and pensions on being permitted to stay for a year. With 90 day reporting we have work to do in 4 months of the year at least. The rest of the year we increasingly are left worrying whether yet ANOTHER rule change will be invoked before our next application and our lives (and possibly of our Thai families) will be blown out of the water.

Edited September 17, 2007 by gdhm

[Sunbelt Asia]

I read this yesterday, and to a large extent, this report of the current attitude/thinking by Pattaya immigration was dealt with on this thread many pages ago.

We will have to wait and see what is really going down, but I would rather trust the inside information from Sunbelt than this report from Pattaya Today.

Frankly I wouldn't trust Pattaya immigration further than I could throw a passport.

However, I did find a little snippet in the article quite interesting:

.....provided the 800,000 baht was deposited not less than three months before the first application was made. There is no time constraint on subsequent applications.

I wonder what this means? if anything? It seems to be suggesting that once you have been issued with a retirement extension by having 800K in the bank for 3, months, on subsequent renewals it is not necessary for the money to have been there for 3 months.

Probably nonsense, but if not, the what does it mean?

Anyone?

As reported Pattaya is following the National Police Order 606 in regards to dependents on retirement permits. While BKk is following the Immigration Act and Ministerial regulations.

Just like the Thai Embassies/Consulates all have different criteria to grant a visa so does the different Immigration offices inside Thailand.

It was mentioned in an earlier post re a farang couple doing the split year renewals, at least three months apart and simply transferring the 800K between one and others bank for renewal of retirement visa - is that viable for the future?

They would have to transfer the funds out of the country after the 1st permit was granted and then transfer it in the second applicants name. They would have transfer fees and exchange rates to deal with but it could be possible.

One fly in the ointment, they are granting in some cases now, just one month " under consideration" and then the one year permit.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Maestro]

…I have no idea where they got it from.

Actually, Mobi, I was asking BlackJack, not you, because his post made little sense to me.

--

Maestro

[Penkoprod]

Am i reading the latter posts on this thread correctly, and that these are just a "firming up" of regulations already in place?

If so, i wonder what "fun and merriment" the Thai authorities have in store for us on Oct 1st

Penkoprod

[IAMSOBAD]

Please make a list of Thai banks that let you open an accpont on a retirement visa? It is a catch 22. Most banks want a work permit. Any help? I am with SCB now...BUT i am looking for others. Please reply. Does money in the THAI SET count as money in country? Has anyone tried other than a straight savings account? Like a brokerage account?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Please make a list of Thai banks that let you open an accpont on a retirement visa? It is a catch 22. Most banks want a work permit. Any help? I am with SCB now...BUT i am looking for others. Please reply. Does money in the THAI SET count as money in country? Has anyone tried other than a straight savings account? Like a brokerage account?

Best bet is just start going into banks and trying till you find one that will accept you. Money in the SET does not count.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Maestro]

Am i reading the latter posts on this thread correctly, and that these are just a "firming up" of regulations already in place?

Penkoprod, if you are talking about the reports that the Immigration Bureau just discovered that at least two of the rules for extension in Police Order 606/2549 are contrary to an earlier Ministerial Regulation on the same subject my reading of the situation is that the current Police Director General is still trying to find and elegant – read: face-saving – way to rectify these errors in last year’s Police Order, signed by the immediate-past Police Director General. An alternative would be a new Ministerial Regulation to make the extension rules of Police Order 606/2549 legal, which would make one group of people happy (wives of retirees) an another group unhappy (single parents of Thai children younger than 50)

A third issue is the intended requirement for applicants to apply for extensions and other immigration matters at their local immigration office. This would probably fall within the authority of the Immigration Commissioner and thus not need a new Ministerial Order or Police Order.

--

Maestro

[PeaceBlondie]

I've had numerous accounts with two national Thai banks )Bank of Ayuttayha and Kasinkorn) in several provinces, and never had a work permit, just a one year visa such as O or B. Keep shopping. But I'm only referring to straight savings accounts; you don't need a work permit.

[mraitchison]

From the sounds of the report below in the Pattaya News this has been a lot of smoke but not much fire. All that needs to be done is for somebody to verify that this is true and we can all relax.

Latest visa rule updates

Chat rooms not always reliable The ministry of foreign affairs has now cancelled its instruction that the letters issued by foreign embassies to “guarantee” the income necessary for one year retirement visas must be submitted to its Bangkok office for verification. The ministry had earlier announced that applicants for this particular visa from October 1 upcoming would need to journey to its office in Bangkok at 123 Chaeng Watthana Road in order for officials there to rubber-stamp the embassy letter. Expats aged over 50 with retirement visas were overjoyed at the news as the looming requirement was causing confusion and it was not clear whether the pensioner would need to go to Bangkok in person or could send someone else with power of attorney.

The ministry did not cite any reasons for its change of heart, but the sheer volume of applications and the unpopularity of the move have been suggested. However, immigration officials stated that the embassy letters now had a validity of only 12 months and could not be reused. This means effectively that retirees will now need an embassy letter every year unless they choose to keep 800,000 baht in cash in an accessible account in a Thai bank. In this case, there is no requirement to show income via an embassy letter, provided the 800,000 baht was deposited not less than three months before the first application was made. There is no time constraint on subsequent applications. But other categories of one year visa holders, such as those holding the “married man’s” extension or foreigners with work permits issued by the labour office may still need some documentation stamped by the ministry of foreign affairs in Bangkok. They are advised to consult their local immigration bureau or their legal advisers if they are in doubt about their individual status and the documentation required. In recent days, a separate matter has been posted by individuals on some internet sites and chat rooms. It has been claimed variously that the foreign wives or foreign dependants of a retirement visa applicant will now need to submit their own separate applications and no longer be able to “piggy-back” the main retiree. The suggestion on the internet was that even the foreign wife of an applicant for a retirement visa would need her own income or cash lump sum in her own right. But immigration sources say they have no information on any new ruling. As of mid September, Pattaya immigration office was processing such applications in the normal way and without any changes. “We have had no new instructions,” said one officer who handles visas for retirees. In other words, foreign wives of applicants for retirement visas can continue to “piggy-back” provided they can show their marriage certificate and have a valid non-immigrant visa at the time of application for the extension. An immigration source said “To put it simply, there appear to be no changes to retirement visas at present except that embassy letters now need renewing every year on the instruction of the ministry of foreign affairs.” People who are applying for one year extensions because they are married to a Thai or have Thai dependants, or those who have Thai work permits issued by the Labour office, need to check their personal position with the immigration bureau to make sure they have their paperwork spot on. Generally speaking, it is not immigration bureau policy to react to messages posted on the internet.

Pattaya Today News

__________________

[Jingthing]

I mentioned that a few days ago and everyone agrees the part about the 3 month money seasoning rule not being needed for subsequent retirement extensions is totally WRONG. Why would you trust a bush league fish wrap like Pattaya Today or any other local media? If they got that detail so totally wrong, makes one wonder if the entire article is rubbish.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

Chat rooms not always reliable The ministry of foreign affairs has now cancelled its instruction that the letters issued by foreign embassies to “guarantee” the income necessary for one year retirement visas must be submitted to its Bangkok office for verification.

There was no such "instruction" that anyone has been able to provide. The MFA does not regulate immigration. The source of that report seems to have been Pattaya media.

[phuketrichard]

Please make a list of Thai banks that let you open an accpont on a retirement visa? It is a catch 22. Most banks want a work permit. Any help? I am with SCB now...BUT i am looking for others. Please reply. Does money in the THAI SET count as money in country? Has anyone tried other than a straight savings account? Like a brokerage account?

Bangkok Bank here in Phuket will open account for westerners with no trouble. only your passport

as to 800,000 in the bank. I always showed mine and 85% of the money came from in country not from outside and never any problems here in Phuket.

[gdhm]

Please make a list of Thai banks that let you open an account on a retirement visa? It is a catch 22. Most banks want a work permit. Any help? I am with SCB now...BUT i am looking for others. Please reply. Does money in the THAI SET count as money in country? Has anyone tried other than a straight savings account? Like a brokerage account?

I am retired (obviously no work permit). Kasikorn do not require a Work Permit AND they allow Internet banking even when you have savings/ deposit accounts only and no current account (which I believe retirees cannot have at any bank)

Bangkok bank also allowed me to open Savings and Deposit accounts (14 months ago) but would NOT allow Internet banking without a Work Permit so no good for Retirees. They also wanted my Thai wife to sign a document vouching for me in some way. I don't think it was a guarantee letter but may have been. Unfortunately for me at the time of opening my Savings account they told me they would allow me Internet Banking and that I should come back a week after opening my account to set it up. They changed their their story when I returned a week later suggesting I had misunderstood. Neither I nor my wife misunderstand as we were both told the same thing in our own languages. Whether the information given initially was mistaken or deliberate to induce me to open an an account I will never know BUT they knew Internet banking was a prerequisite for me.

Had I been told the truth I would not have opened my Bangkok account and would have found Kasikorn (which I later did as Internet banking is important to me). I have found Kasikorn to very helpful and the twice I asked questions by email via their Internet website they acknowledged within hours and replied IN FULL with very good English within 24 hours.

Just for the record I was advised to try Kasikorn by other satisfied members of my local Forum

Sorry, I am unable to answer your other questions as I have no knowledge or experience on these matters.

Hope this helps,

Dave

[Priceless]

I have without any problems opened accounts with Siam Commercial Bank both in Bangkok, Head Office in Jatujak (on a Tourist Visa) and in Chiang Mai, Prapokklao Street office (on a Non-Imm O-A visa). Both accounts included ATM cards and the latter also gave me Internet banking.

/ Priceless

Edited September 18, 2007 by Priceless

[IAMSOBAD]

anyone ever invest in the Thai SET? anyone have a brokerage account in Thailand? i have retirement visa but want to use the 800,000 during the year. any ideas?

[BlackJack]

To qualify this if I was in UK Thai Embassy applying for a retirement visa then I would have to show money thats in the UK account as I couldnt open a THai bank account from the UK - THEREFORE the money would be safe and sound in a UK bank earning interest and not sitting in some Thai bank account earning little or no interest.

[JetsetBkk]

... a bush league fish wrap like Pattaya Today ...

[PattayaParent]

I've had numerous accounts with two national Thai banks )Bank of Ayuttayha and Kasinkorn) in several provinces, and never had a work permit, just a one year visa such as O or B. Keep shopping. But I'm only referring to straight savings accounts; you don't need a work permit.

We all know that PB, but try telling the bank that when you're sat in front of them and they say no WP no Account! It's just another case of (mis)interpretation of the rules as it makes no sense that you're required to have 800k in the bank in Thailand when it's not possible to open an account in Thailand.

Thr bank just doesn't understand this (il)logic thinking.

[Naam]

We all know that PB, but try telling the bank that when you're sat in front of them and they say no WP no Account!

my advice: don't talk to clowns who don't want to be disturbed and hate to interrupt poking their noses by opening an account for you. bypass them, go straight to the manager be polite and be prepared to conduct some small talk. worked for me each time.

[PeaceBlondie]

If you live where there are many banks, and the manager doesn't let you open an account (as suggested by Dr. Naam), just smile, wai, and go to the next bank, and the next.

[jumnien]

Patience is the quickest way to get things done in the Land of Smiles!