No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[Bruce1]

Short-sighted nationalism dressed up as patriotism can be found in any country, including both Oz and Thailand. With a military government obsessed with border security what do you expect? After all, the Thais (Tai ethnic group as Siam) have been fighting their neighbours for independence for about a thousand years, so what's new? Its not surprising they're unhappy about all those illegal immigrants. They see foreigners as a threat and a burden, not as a chance to incorporate them and make their nation stronger.

Personally, it doesn't affect me at the moment, but it's one more reason to never invest in this place beyond the minimum required to get by comfortably.

Love the people, but the governments are very immature.

I keep humming John Lennon's 'Imagine' and thinking how great the world would be if there were no nations and people could just live where they liked, and contribute to whichever place they chose. Thailand would actually be better off than it is now, I think.

[JohnBKKK]

Wonder what would happen if the British, German, US imigratons would suddenly amend the rules for Thai's to match the rules here exactly including land ownership - what an outcry there would be in the Thai press about the hundreds of thousands of Thais who are being descriminated against, living in those countries - having lived with my Thai family in Europe, there was no problem obtaining a permanent residence for the wife - back here since some years I can't help but feeling any future here threatened by a gouvernment that seems to becoming more and more hostile towards foreigners, even those who live here honestly.

Isn't it about time our foreign ministries/embassies start interveening against all this?

One should always keep in mind, there are now more Thai's living in Europe and the US than foreigners living in Thailand and those Thai's enjoy all the freedom of our countries while we are being screwed here!

[tim77]

I am amazed at all of this. This ruling dismisses any possibility whatsoever the notion that Thai's are firm believers in the family unit and reinforces without question the idea that foreigners are wanted only for their money. Shame on you Thailand. And no, it doesn't effect me personally.

I endorse your comment wholeheartedly. This is a shameful day for Thailand.

Entice people under one set of rules - rules for visa, home ownership, ability to own shares in a company, etc. - and then after human beings have committed and altered their status . . . . change the rules again. For shame.

I will be writing to my Embassy and will be asking for an official protest and for trade sanctions.

[aznyron]

this new law does not affect me but Malaysia is looking awfull good to me

I went to Penang few years ago for visa when I arrived in Malaysia without a visa they gave me 90 days at the airport.

Amazing here in LOS you only get 30 days

and another thing I do not see the ringitt going up or down like the thai baht

and you can take a train ride to BKK from Penang if you choose to do so

now if I can get my pick up truck which is financed to Malaysia with out any problems

I am out of here asap

[nyles]

If a foreigner has been granted a extension of stay based on retirement, until now as per 7.19 of the Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 his or her foreign dependent ( Wife or husband, child, father, mother) could get a extension of stay by being a dependent. As of Sept 1st, no more dependent extension of stay permits will be issued

Some more ones sorted!

Next!

This includes any “grandfather” cases where the dependent applicant had the extension of stay before Sept 1st 2007.

[...]

This National Police Order will be dated Sept 1st 2007 and will be published in the Gazette in the next 10 days. However this order is effective immediately.

These are the most important and telling parts and this is what even those who aren't affected at all should carefully think about...

It doesn't surprise those of us who have long understood Thailand and the Thais, of course.

If you are applying for the extension of stay based on retirement. You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

Typical third world!

Typical third world!

Well - no wonder that they try to get rid of us!

[howard251]

Over the last ten years I've noticed that every time farangs get worked up over a perceived change in any aspect of life here in Thailand, there is a "henny penny the sky is falling mentality" and a rush to predict a mass exodus, forced or voluntary, from Thailand. Life goes on, and more and more farang keep coming. I really don't see anything but more farang in our future here. My advice is to be patient and pleasant and enjoy some aspect of nature and fellow man and watch how things just sort of resolve themselves.

Bravo!!!

[Penkoprod]

The Malaysians with their "Retire to Malaysia" program must be laughing their heads off

You might wish to rethink that view, in the light of the article below...................

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/wmalay101.xml

Malaysia considers switch to Islamic law

By Thomas Bell in Kuala Lumpur

Last Updated: 1:56am BST 01/09/2007

Hardline Islamic law could be introduced across Malaysia under reforms proposed by the country's chief justice.

As the nation in south-east Asia celebrated 50 years of independence from Britain yesterday, its government was preparing to discuss a plan that would revolutionise the legal system put in place by its former colonial administrators.

As Kuala Lumpur witnessed celebrations that included parades, fireworks and a fighter-jet fly-by attended by the Duke of York, the proposal pointed to the deep differences which locals say are poisoning social relations beyond the glitter and skyscrapers of Malaysia's modern capital city.

Ahmad Fairuz, the chief justice, told an Islamic conference in Kuala Lumpur that 50 years of independence had failed to free Malaysia from the "clutches of colonialism". Sharia law should be "infused" into the gaps created by abolishing common law, he said.

Malaysia's non-Muslim Chinese and Indian communities, who form 40 per cent of the population, are alarmed at creeping Islamisation.

Abdul Badawi, the prime minister, this month joined other leaders for the first time in denying what the British-authored constitution has said for 50 years - that Malaysia is a secular state.

Sharia law already operates in some Malaysian states and is occasionally applied to non-Muslims, as in July when Islamic officials forcibly separated a Hindu-Muslim couple with six children after 21 years of marriage.

The majority ethnic Malays are defined as Muslim by law and forbidden from converting.

Racial tensions are already high due to official discrimination in favour of Malays, who enjoy better employment opportunities, preferential loans and lower house prices.

Dr Mohd Hatta, of the Islamic Party, welcomed the latest proposal in principle, but said: "The chief justice should be enforcing laws, not making them."

Meanwhile, dissent is increasingly harshly repressed. Journalists and bloggers say they are tailed by police and their phones are tapped.

Penkoprod

[capt_canada42]

Wonder what would happen if the British, German, US imigratons would suddenly amend the rules for Thai's to match the rules here exactly including land ownership - what an outcry there would be in the Thai press about the hundreds of thousands of Thais who are being descriminated against, living in those countries - having lived with my Thai family in Europe, there was no problem obtaining a permanent residence for the wife - back here since some years I can't help but feeling any future here threatened by a gouvernment that seems to becoming more and more hostile towards foreigners, even those who live here honestly.

Isn't it about time our foreign ministries/embassies start interveening against all this?

One should always keep in mind, there are now more Thai's living in Europe and the US than foreigners living in Thailand and those Thai's enjoy all the freedom of our countries while we are being screwed here!

Yes its time to put pressure on our countries to put pressure on Thai's living abroad but frankly it will only hurt the people living in our countries and the Thai government will not give a sh*t !

The old saying turn about is fair play will not help as the government here does not care, this is the problem of a military coupe government.

Notice foreign investment in Thailand is the lowest in the developed nations in Asia right now and it doesn't seem to bother the military government at all.

[itsbill]

I am one of those who will be affected by this as I was planning to retire here in a couple of years with my farang wife, now that will have to be seriously re-considered, I am not one of these people who attack everything the Thai authorities do and can usualy see some kind of sense behind the thoughts , and I can even see some here but there seems to be a slow drip, drip, drip of changes that in the end will make it impracticle for many farangs to live here, each time they make these changes peoples thoughts seem to be ok I can live with this but what next? will I be able to deal with the next change? all this causes a lack of stability in farangs plans for buying condo's, bars, cars, retiring in Thailand and so on. And presumably big international business must also be looking at this in the same way. What next?

[nemo38]

Yes. Their country, their choice.

and from Martin

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Every population has their view given to them by the media. Politicians and power brokers surf this wave to their own ends. If you believe that decisions by governments, especially in Thailand, express the soverign will of the prople you are brain dead.

Isn't it just Western arrogance that we should assume that The Thais care about the ups and downs of westerners trying to stay here?

No, it isn't arrogance. It is an evaluation of the intention of Thai authorities to deal fairly with our citizens. We make the same evaluation of other countries around the world without it being arrogant.

I will be watching the condo prices ..........

Quite. But this won't be a buying opportunity. Foreigners have pushed up prices to unrealistic levels. Who is going to buy those Condos with crazy Thais pushing so many foreigners out of the country?

The new policy will probably prompt emigration of retirees to Malaysia...and will certainly impact negatively on local Thai business.

Or to the Philippines, Malaysia, or Vietnam. They are all good places to live.

I wonder when we, the married to a Thai woman will be sent out?

They might not see it as a legitimate marriage. Many foreigners marry Thai prostitutes.They may see these marriages as more of a lease of facilities than a genuine coupling. I am sorry to say they may not respect your marriage and the way they treat you could be impacted by their attitude.

They don't care about the money we bring. They've all got their own personal fortunes and they couldn't give two hoots what happens to the Thai economy.

Right. Look at neighbouring countries. Ruling parties are happy to suppress the local population while enjoying great wealth themselves. Countries like Burma may not have Starbucks but the wealthy elite can afford to take a trip to a 1st world country to enjoy the pleasures in life. If the economy tanks in Thailand it is to the advantage of these people. They are going to be in a position to buy monopolies in any business which is still viable.

I shall enjoy reading about the implosion of Pattaya.

But think about those foreigners who have settled there. Even blokes who have Thai wives and kids often rely on the business of other foreigners. If there are less foreign residents that is going to hit business. Not to mention the knock on effects of people world wide knowing Thais hate foreigners. What is going to happen to tourism? Enough people are wound up over this to flood travel message boards world wide with an anti Thai message. Lonely planet could mean lonely Thailand. Amazingly dumb Thailand.

Make all the laws that apply to foreigners in Thailand apply to Thai people in the countries foreigners have come

from. There is nothing special about Thailand...Nothing at all. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

In the UK you can start an online petition which, when signed, gets delivered to the the prime minister. Advertise your petition here and other sites and you can have your say.

[tim77]

I am in no way adversely affected by any of the Thai actions over the last year. I am deeply saddened by the harm being dealt out to my countrymen and to other foreign citizens.

I live in another Asian country and for the past year have been buying Thai goods and exporting them for resale. For the past several weeks we have been working on a purchase of Thai goods. This purchase was to close today. In support of my countrymen, I will cancel this purchase and will boycott Thailand as a prospective source of future goods.

Edited September 1, 2007 by tim77

[capt_canada42]

Wonder what would happen if the British, German, US imigratons would suddenly amend the rules for Thai's to match the rules here exactly including land ownership - what an outcry there would be in the Thai press about the hundreds of thousands of Thais who are being descriminated against, living in those countries - having lived with my Thai family in Europe, there was no problem obtaining a permanent residence for the wife - back here since some years I can't help but feeling any future here threatened by a gouvernment that seems to becoming more and more hostile towards foreigners, even those who live here honestly.

Isn't it about time our foreign ministries/embassies start interveening against all this?

One should always keep in mind, there are now more Thai's living in Europe and the US than foreigners living in Thailand and those Thai's enjoy all the freedom of our countries while we are being screwed here!

Yes its time to put pressure on our countries to put pressure on Thai's living abroad but frankly it will only hurt the people living in our countries and the Thai government will not give a sh*t !

The old saying turn about is fair play will not help as the government here does not care, this is the problem of a military coupe government.

Notice foreign investment in Thailand is the lowest in the developed nations in Asia right now and it doesn't seem to bother the military government at all.

So the best thing is to try and relax and live our lives as best we can, getting up set is not going to change things, but its also not going to help change things if people don't say anything also.

The thing that amazes me is that people who have been my friends here for 30 years and enjoyed the rights in my country when they went to school there example to buy land and be treated as an equal feel that its okay not to give falangs rights here.

There is a lot to be said about one world one family, nationalism sucks, but people don't want to see each other as brothers and sisters they continue to live in their heads as Thai's, Malay's, Singaporeans, Brits and on and on, stupidity.

[tim77]

Over the last ten years I've noticed that every time farangs get worked up over a perceived change in any aspect of life here in Thailand, there is a "henny penny the sky is falling mentality" and a rush to predict a mass exodus, forced or voluntary, from Thailand. Life goes on, and more and more farang keep coming. I really don't see anything but more farang in our future here. My advice is to be patient and pleasant and enjoy some aspect of nature and fellow man and watch how things just sort of resolve themselves.

Bravo!!!

I am very familiar with Thailand. What are these changes over the last ten years that you are so familiar with. Nothing like the present changes to visas, companies, or home ownership has ever occurred. Please be so kind as to present your list of "perceived changes".

[realitymanagement]

Sunbelt – it would be appreciated if you could give your idea about the direct or indirect reasons behind these changes. I assume there is a specific group of people Immigration want to target.

I was thinking that too. Does anyone know what the thinking behind this madness might be? Why are they targeting the dependants?

[fortuner]

No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

and

Map required

One times more the thai goverment has proven, that they dont really worry about the macroeconomic environment and they seems to be only short time oriented ( maybe to bring themself in a positive light for the coming votes ??? ).

What other reason to kick out of the country one of the most important consumer groups of the near future. If they would study only ones the statistics about "demographic of ages" especially in europe, they could recognise, that this will be one of the most important and richest consumer groups for the future.

This is only the economical point of view, a part of the human behavior, following the thais principal : foreign investors are very welcome, but after they deposited their money they should go home.

A step further to demage the standing of thailand and force foreigners to choose other locations to spend their money.

Best regards

[tim77]

Sunbelt – it would be appreciated if you could give your idea about the direct or indirect reasons behind these changes. I assume there is a specific group of people Immigration want to target.

I was thinking that too. Does anyone know what the thinking behind this madness might be? Why are they targeting the dependants?

The target is "all foreigners".

[nemo38]

I am in no way adversely affected by any of the Thai actions over the last year. I am deeply saddened by the harm being dealt out to my countrymen and to other foreign citizens.

I live in another Asian country and for the past year have been buying Thai goods and exporting them for resale. For the past several weeks we have been working on a purchase of Thai goods. This purchase was to close today. In support of my countrymen, I will cancel this purchase and will boycott Thailand as a prospective source of future goods.

Good on you Tim. I just canceled my flight to Thailand for October and switched to the Philippines. I'm making another investment in Asia and Thailand was a country I was considering. But past, and very recent, developments make it far too scary a place.

Of course, since I'm not choosing Thailand for investment my investment can't be important for Thailand. Cue Thai patriots....

[retiredusn]

what is the max overstay payment????per year

[ProThaiExpat]

Over the last ten years I've noticed that every time farangs get worked up over a perceived change in any aspect of life here in Thailand, there is a "henny penny the sky is falling mentality" and a rush to predict a mass exodus, forced or voluntary, from Thailand. Life goes on, and more and more farang keep coming. I really don't see anything but more farang in our future here. My advice is to be patient and pleasant and enjoy some aspect of nature and fellow man and watch how things just sort of resolve themselves.

Bravo. Well said. There are a very few non-Thai bashing posts in this thread, but that is about the norm for T.V.

It is human nature to look at the world, in this case Thailand, from your own narrow point of view, ie. falang in Thailand, when if fact, the Thai government has to look at many immigration issues that affect the future of Thailand as a whole.

There is a very big frog sitting on the edge of our small Thai pond, who maybe crouching to jump in, much to Thailand's harm. While that large frog may have been prevented from jumping previously due to a totalitarian government that did not permit emigration and widespread poverty, now that economy is the wonder of the world and the number of middle and upper classes with money have exponentially increased.

If only 10 percent of brits want to retire in Thailand you are looking at a far lower number of potential retirees that 10 % of a billion or more.

As one sage poster pointed out, the greatest number of retirees to be affected by this new regulation are Chinese, who presently are the largest number of new retirees. Lets determine who the target is before we pin that target on ourselves!!

[nemo38]

What other reason to kick out of the country one of the most important consumer groups of the near future. If they would study only ones the statistics about "demographic of ages" especially in europe, they could recognise, that this will be one of the most important and richest consumer groups for the future.

Costa Rica undertook a study on the economic contribution of foreign retirees about ten years ago. Costa Rica has a very open policy for retirees. They found that foreigners who retired to Costa Rica brought a great deal of capital and often opened a small or medium sized business which employed a good number of local people. Their businesses were large foreign exchange earners. They were also very innovative and brought many new services and industries to the country.

[farang prince]

Over the last ten years I've noticed that every time farangs get worked up over a perceived change in any aspect of life here in Thailand, there is a "henny penny the sky is falling mentality" and a rush to predict a mass exodus, forced or voluntary, from Thailand. Life goes on, and more and more farang keep coming. I really don't see anything but more farang in our future here. My advice is to be patient and pleasant and enjoy some aspect of nature and fellow man and watch how things just sort of resolve themselves.

Time to switch hands.

[bikerlou47]

Thailand can make any rules they see fit no matter how foolish they seem to be, BUT

To change the rules for those folks that already live here and were following the rules of the day is a heartless act.

Think about it we are not talking about single guys in this latest ruling we are talking about family people! They have come here to start a new life invested their money their time and even their heart and now Thailand wants to CHANGE the rules.

What a shame that Thailand does not see the cruelty of the new rule applying to those who have already settled here.

[nycjoe]

No matter what our status, we are all subject to these brainstorming sessions, I won't buy here and keep a packed suitcase by the door. My wife wants me to go to mexico, where you can own your own house.

[JohnBKKK]

Well considering that a Thai political party was called "Thai's love Thai's" should give a certain message. The old saying still seems to be appropiate:

We love you foreigners - come to our country - leave you money at the airport and get the hel_l out of our country

Having been here some 20 years (somehow got stuck here - family & business) I find myself researching the internet for other places to live. Tried 2 years in the UK recently and most say "NO thank you" - Labour has managed this once great country into the ground - back here, things are getting worse ... Malaysia ?? again NO thank you - I recon within a year or two this will be fully gouverned by islamic law and any modern thinking person would find it as appealing as living in Riad or to take a trip on a time machine and get stuck in the dark ages - in short, the world is getting smaller and decent places to live are becoming rare - well unless you have a ton of money in which case the south of France would be appealing in Summer and Curasao in the winter .....

I guess its a case of hoping that these things will as they alsways have sort themselves out and the best thing is not to bother and just get on with life and that they may be a day when Thailand is going to realize that they need foreigners - which should be quite obvious, considering that all decent roads were build by foreign contractors, so were all decent bridges, the sky train and since the Thais love the money coming in from the tourist industry, somehow things will work out..... hopefully

[hilly]

This is appalling and about the worst example of a government who really does not give a ###### but is trying to stamp its mark to show that it has managed to do something useful in its short term of office. Someone in the military really does hate falangs and before they leave they are going to get some personal satisfaction.

I would hazard a guess that this new rule will either be over turned quickly or at the very least renounced after the next election. There must be thousands living here with non Thai wives who are going to be affected by this and they are likely to make things pretty uncomfortable.The newspapers are going to have a field day also both Thai and foreign. This amounts to nothing short of cruel and inhumane treatment of the vast majority of non Thai couples that live and have settled here. I really don't think that many educated Thai people will be in favour of this either.

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one. Then of course she has to leave for visa runs every 3 months and most husbands with their 1 year (do not have to leave retirement visas) are likely to have to or want to go out with their wives. Visa runs do nothing to add to the economy and in fact quite the reverse. I have never understood visa runs that make us spend our hard earned elsewhere when flying abroad.

Then doubling the 800,000 Baht for wives or even husbands over 50 makes no sense when if you are married to a Thai wife or husband you get a 50% discount (ie 400,000 Baht all in). Maybe they think that Thai wives are not so worthy of having good incomes.

So I have the answer for all of you with this problem. Divorce your spouse and get married to Thais. I am sure that marriages of convenience would be easy to arrange for a small fee. Divorce here is a piece of cake and so is marriage. You can then carry on living in bliss with your real partner as this trick is most unlikely to be forced on Thai/falang marriages. Imagine the uproar if they did that.

Well done Thailand you might just have got thousands more of your people married to falangs with a nice little scam.

"Thai logic" that great contradiction in terms.

[britmaveric]

Well sounds like perhaps separate bank accounts for a farang married couple. I think more red tape, but I think this measure can be maneuvered around.

[Rdrokit]

Look folks, get one thing straight.

They don't care about foreigners - in fact many derive a diverse pleasure from pissing us off.

They don't care about the money we bring. They've all got their own personal fortunes and they couldn't give two hoots what happens to the Thai economy.

If every retired farang was kicked out of Thailand tomorrow, it would take years, if ever, for it to have even the slightest effect on the Thai economy.

Get real - they don't want you here, and you aint as important to Thailand as you think you are.

Sorry, all you dreamers out there....

Mobi is quite right. The Thai goverment does not care about foreigners living in Thailand. This policy is called "Isolationsim" and was practiced by many goverments in the past., like the US and Australia. (I can remember the time if you were black the chances of immagrating to Ausralia were nill). The only money the goverment cares about is the export money from products like rubber, rice, salt, etc. If countries were to boycot these exports because of this isolationism policy then the policys might change but don'y hold your breath as I think it can olny get worse

[cathyy]

"Affected" is too mild a word for me and my husband. We do the retirement/dependent visa thing. Our visas expire in two weeks. We HAD all our paperwork in order to extend another year. Now? It looks like Malaysia. Even if our local office isn't up on the rules and gives it to us (going in Monday) we will only use the time to make a more leisurely move. It's an event we never hoped to experience, but we did see the potential and laid basic plans.

We're aware of the ramifications of Islamic law. We'd miss pork and ham a lot, and that's about the only negative effect it would have on us. I expect a trip to Malaysia will be on the calendar very soon.

Look at the bright side. Malaysia has Ikea, and speaks English, and lets you import your car and household goods duty-free if you get that 10-year MM2H visa. For which we do qualify.

[otton]

Bravo. Well said. There are a very few non-Thai bashing posts in this thread, but that is about the norm for T.V.

It is human nature to look at the world, in this case Thailand, from your own narrow point of view, ie. falang in Thailand, when if fact, the Thai government has to look at many immigration issues that affect the future of Thailand as a whole.

[...]

As one sage poster pointed out, the greatest number of retirees to be affected by this new regulation are Chinese, who presently are the largest number of new retirees. Lets determine who the target is before we pin that target on ourselves!!

Can you or the other sages believing that tell me why they don't apply the new regs only to the Chinese then?

In case you sages didn't know, Thailand's immigration and labour laws are ALREADY DIFFERENT for different nationalities (for example, Chinese only get 15 days VOA) so if their target were the Chinese they could have easily applied those laws only to the Chinese...

There is a very big frog sitting on the edge of our small Thai pond, who maybe crouching to jump in, much to Thailand's harm. While that large frog may have been prevented from jumping previously due to a totalitarian government that did not permit emigration and widespread poverty, now that economy is the wonder of the world and the number of middle and upper classes with money have exponentially increased.

If only 10 percent of brits want to retire in Thailand you are looking at a far lower number of potential retirees that 10 % of a billion or more.

If retirees "with money" are a burden and a problem for Thailand, why does Thailand have a "retirement visa" at all?

Curiously, they lowered the min required age (and, amongst other things, temporarily upped the allowed condo farang percentage to 100%...) during their last financially troubled time...

[sonnyJ]

Tai people in the region have been given a very bad impression of farangs over the centuries.

The Brits took neighbouring Burma and Malaya, and the French took neighbouring Laos and Cambodia.

The Brits forced themselves upom Siam with the Bowring Treaty.

Their underlying view of farangs is:"Farang's are aggressive and we are not, and so we are vulnerable to them."

We farangs really do have to accept that the praiseworthy view of our nations, with which we were brainwashed in our childhood, is not held by the people of this region.

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Its THAI and not Tai

The Tai were an ethnic group who were driven out of southern China a long time ago and settled in among other places the country which we now know as Thailand

Lets say a huge ethnic group. At least thats what the linguistics are telling us. I'll just give it a guess, about 200 languages still alive, but not for long.