Pattaya Immigration New Visa Rules Changes

[Guderian]

Question:

Can you just show a COPY of the card? Do you have to also show the ACTUAL card?

And the critical question to which I cannot find an answer "What if you just don't HAVE a credit card, only a local ATM card that doesn't show your name"?

SCB cards are one example and I'm sure there are others.

Weird isn't it? I had over 1.5 million Baht in my SCB SFF account when I went to see Jomtien Immigration 2 months ago. No ghoot, they said. Never mind that it's an account with a Thai bank, with proof that the money was brought in from overseas; never mind that the balance was almost twice the 800K Baht they insist on; the account was evidently the wrong sort. Given this type of pin-headed nit-picking, I don't find it too much of a stretch of the imagination to see them deporting people if they don't have a credit card in their own name, even if they have a couple of million sitting in a Thai bank account.

Does anyone know how difficult (or easy) it is to get a (very low limit, maybe 10,000 Baht say) credit card in your own name with SCB?

Also, there seems to be a clear divide between what the US Embassy has advised on this issue and what Mr. Barry Kenyon is telling us. Plus, as far as I am aware, this is still only an issue in Jomtien. Any more recent experiences in Jomtien from people? Anybody been asked for a credit card outside Pattaya?

[Limbo]

It is reasonable, though, for any Thai immigration officer to request backup for self-declared pension income. The 'certification' by MFA is even more meaningless, because it can only express an opinion that the officer who certified the original self-declaration was an officer at the embassy/consulate. The MFA's certification cannot verify the pension income itself, nor can the officer at some of our embassies.

I believe this is not quite true, PeaceBlondie. At least at the danish embassy they want to see official papers from the danish government or from the pension company, where one´s pension comes from, before they will issue a statement about the yearly pension income.

North

The same for the Embassy of the Netherlands. Without official papers from the pension funds they would not provide you with a declaration of income.

I admire the American Embassy for its trust in its own citizens (which it doesn't seem to extend to people of other nationalities). I thought it were only the communists who didn't believe in the original sin.

Limbo

[longball53098]

Question:

Can you just show a COPY of the card? Do you have to also show the ACTUAL card?

And the critical question to which I cannot find an answer "What if you just don't HAVE a credit card, only a local ATM card that doesn't show your name"?

SCB cards are one example and I'm sure there are others.

VBF

The ATM card that you got at SCB was a generic card they keep in the branch when new accounts are opened. If you request a new card,,,,,,,such as when the magnetic stripe on your card fails,,,,,,,,,you can order a card and your name will be embossed on it,,,,,,,,,it takes a week or so to get a new card. My girlfriend had this happen at both SCB and Bangkok bank,,,,,,,she has new ATM cards with her name on them.

PK

[VBF]

Question:

Can you just show a COPY of the card? Do you have to also show the ACTUAL card?

And the critical question to which I cannot find an answer "What if you just don't HAVE a credit card, only a local ATM card that doesn't show your name"?

SCB cards are one example and I'm sure there are others.

VBF

The ATM card that you got at SCB was a generic card they keep in the branch when new accounts are opened. If you request a new card,,,,,,,such as when the magnetic stripe on your card fails,,,,,,,,,you can order a card and your name will be embossed on it,,,,,,,,,it takes a week or so to get a new card. My girlfriend had this happen at both SCB and Bangkok bank,,,,,,,she has new ATM cards with her name on them.

PK

PK,

Thank you.

That must've changed because last year I lost my card, cancelled it and got a replacement from SCB. The replacement was also a generic card - it cost 300Baht and the bank clerk simply "linked" it to my account and had me enter a PIN on her reader on the counter. I shall be in Pattaya in January and will ask at SCB.

However, it still doesn't prevent someone fraudulently using the details so the comments in this thread are still, IMO, very relevent.

[lopburi3]

A basic ATM card has no details - the number isn't even your account number. You need to read the card magnetic strip to get information and even that is useless without the PIN.

[doctormann]

Just been looking at the ATM card that I got from TMB when I originally opened my account. This is. apparently, a 'TMB Universal Shopping Card' and has the Visa Electron logo. It also has my name embossed on it.

This card works as an ATM card anywhere in the world that I've actually tried it - quite a few countries.

Interestingly, the card also has on it the legend 'Electronic Use Only'. I'm not too sure what this actually means - obviously works in ATMs but maybe (speculating here) it can't be used for shopping over the internet or 'phone, which would, of course, be the main concern if some 3rd party got hold of the details.

I've only ever used it as an ATM card so I don't know if it works in any other way. Any comments?

DM

[VBF]

A basic ATM card has no details - the number isn't even your account number. You need to read the card magnetic strip to get information and even that is useless without the PIN.

I agree Lopburi3 but my comment was in response to PK's suggestion that it is possible to get an ATM card that IS personalised.

Your reply, while perfectly true, unfortunately doesn't confirm whether a basic ATM card (without one's name on it) would satisfy Immigration or, if not, whether a Personalised one would contain enough detail to be used fraudulently. This is the dilemma as I see it.

VBF

[lopburi3]

I don't know about other banks but my basic Bualuang card has a signature field on the back that you sign your name

[VBF]

I don't know about other banks but my basic Bualuang card has a signature field on the back that you sign your name

I see - I cannot remember if my SCB card does and I don't have it with me so I shall have to look at it later today. If that would satsify Immigration, then "home and dry"!

[longball53098]

VBF

I have 2 SCB atm cards issued when I opened the accounts,,,,,,,,,,,,,only numbers on the front that look like the standard 16 digit seen on all cards,,,,,,,,,,with a validity date and the words "HIP CARD" which I don't know about,,,,,,,,,,,,,also it says "Electronic Use Only" under the Mastercard logo

On the rear is the mag stripe and the signature field and a 4 digit and 3 digit security code,,,,,,,that's it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So,,,,,,,,,,will Immigration accept a card like this signed by an account holder with no name imprinted on the front? Wait and see,,,,,,,,,,,,,or go back to SCB and ask them to order a card with your name on it. They have to work to order the card,,,,,,,,paperwork and such,,,,,,,,,,,,,versus opening a drawer and giving out the "standard" cards they issue with an account.

I plan on having a problem with my card and ordering one with my name on it,,,,,,,,,,we shall see

longball

[Jingthing]

Are they really asking this of people with 800K baht in a Thai bank account? I still find this hard to believe.

[longball53098]

From what I read and hear they aren't asking the 800k people only those using the letter of income from their respective Embassy and then not everyone,,,,,,,,,seems to be very discretionary on thier part,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,almost like if you smell bad or didn't shave or some other odd thing that Immigration gets a thing about.

Some rumors seem to say they are looking at some people because maybe they think their not truthful about the other documentation that's being presentd.

[jstumbo]

or go back to SCB and ask them to order a card with your name on it. They have to work to order the card,,,,,,,,paperwork and such,,,,,,,,,,,,,versus opening a drawer and giving out the "standard" cards they issue with an account.

I plan on having a problem with my card and ordering one with my name on it,,,,,,,,,,we shall see

longball

And then SCB will probably have some new rule where you need a WP to get an ATM card with your name on it.

[Jingthing]

Oh, thats OK then! Its the BAD people. Not my problem (just kidding).

[VBF]

VBF

I have 2 SCB atm cards issued when I opened the accounts,,,,,,,,,,,,,only numbers on the front that look like the standard 16 digit seen on all cards,,,,,,,,,,with a validity date and the words "HIP CARD" which I don't know about,,,,,,,,,,,,,also it says "Electronic Use Only" under the Mastercard logo

On the rear is the mag stripe and the signature field and a 4 digit and 3 digit security code,,,,,,,that's it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So,,,,,,,,,,will Immigration accept a card like this signed by an account holder with no name imprinted on the front? Wait and see,,,,,,,,,,,,,or go back to SCB and ask them to order a card with your name on it. They have to work to order the card,,,,,,,,paperwork and such,,,,,,,,,,,,,versus opening a drawer and giving out the "standard" cards they issue with an account.

I plan on having a problem with my card and ordering one with my name on it,,,,,,,,,,we shall see

longball

Longball,

Thanks for that - I do remember that mine's a HIP card and from memory, the description matches yours - as you say - we shall see....

[wpcoe]

Weird isn't it? I had over 1.5 million Baht in my SCB SFF account when I went to see Jomtien Immigration 2 months ago. No ghoot, they said. Never mind that it's an account with a Thai bank, with proof that the money was brought in from overseas; never mind that the balance was almost twice the 800K Baht they insist on; the account was evidently the wrong sort. Given this type of pin-headed nit-picking, I don't find it too much of a stretch of the imagination to see them deporting people if they don't have a credit card in their own name, even if they have a couple of million sitting in a Thai bank account.

Guderian, far be it for me to defend any Immigrations office policy or action, but I think I could sorta, kinda see why they don't accept the SCB SFF account.

It is a mutual fund-type account of various investments (as detailed on the periodic statements they send you), and you own a certain number of shares of the fund. The amount of baht that is your current balance in your bank book can go up or down daily based on the share price, which is determined by the value of the component investment instruments at the end of each day. In theory, the value could drop to zero tomorrow and you'd have no funds to withdraw. In your particular case of B1.5m it is unlikely that your balance would drop below B800,000. However, another Joe Retiree could walk up next with a balance of B800,000 in his SFF Fund account. His account could easily drop below the holy threshold on any given day.

Beyond that, the Immigrations officers are not financial analysts and probably don't know (or care) how the SCB SFF (or any of the various other) fund account works. (After all, did YOU know that it was actually a fund account that you own shares of?) To keep things "simple," they prefer a standard, easily-recognizable savings account passbook.

So, as I say, I sorta kinda see their point. BTW, I have a SCB SFF Fund account, too.

[NewGuy]

Hope this clarifies what happened to me - regarding the ATM card. It was issued by TMB, does not have my name embossed on it, does have my signature on the reverse side's strip, and Immigration accepted it without question.

[Guest mascot]

I have tried various credit card agencies here in thailand and none will issue me with a credit card without a work permit, this includes my bank and central etc. This dispite I have aust cards and keep a healthy ballance in the bank here in BKK. So for some it would have to be an OS card.

[lopburi3]

The requirement seems to be an ATM card - not a credit card. Anyone with a bank account can obtain an ATM card.

[Mobi]

The requirement seems to be an ATM card - not a credit card. Anyone with a bank account can obtain an ATM card.

This seems to reinforce my theory that immigration are trying to make sure the money in your Thai Bank account actually belongs to you and hasn't been 'borrowed', for a fee, for 3 months.

People who do this will not be allowed by the 'lender' to get ATM cards, nor will they have possession of the pass book, except when they make 'accompanied' visits to immigration.

[Naam]

Weird isn't it? I had over 1.5 million Baht in my SCB SFF account when I went to see Jomtien Immigration 2 months ago. No ghoot, they said. Never mind that it's an account with a Thai bank, with proof that the money was brought in from overseas; never mind that the balance was almost twice the 800K Baht they insist on; the account was evidently the wrong sort.

is it really that difficult to understand why 800k or 65k pension is required? the idea behind the drive is not to show what value one possesses in mutual funds, immobile property, gold bars, etc. but what liquidity is available for expenses.

it's only a matter of time till we are asked to prove that each year 800k or 12 times 65k have been transferred. and the next logical step will be that we have to pay income tax on these amounts.

of course not today, not tomorrow and not next week. when? who knows?

[jstumbo]

The requirement seems to be an ATM card - not a credit card. Anyone with a bank account can obtain an ATM card.

This seems to reinforce my theory that immigration are trying to make sure the money in your Thai Bank account actually belongs to you and hasn't been 'borrowed', for a fee, for 3 months.

People who do this will not be allowed by the 'lender' to get ATM cards, nor will they have possession of the pass book, except when they make 'accompanied' visits to immigration.

But I don't think there is a requirement that the ATM/Credit card be attached to the account that you have the 800K deposited in.

[JetsetBkk]

The requirement seems to be an ATM card - not a credit card. Anyone with a bank account can obtain an ATM card.

This seems to reinforce my theory that immigration are trying to make sure the money in your Thai Bank account actually belongs to you and hasn't been 'borrowed', for a fee, for 3 months.

People who do this will not be allowed by the 'lender' to get ATM cards, nor will they have possession of the pass book, except when they make 'accompanied' visits to immigration.

I don't understand your last sentence.

Anyone with a bank account can get an ATM card. And they will have a pass book showing their name. The number on the ATM card may not match the account number, so immigration cannot prove to themselves that the card relates to the account. However, the signature on the back of the ATM card should help them make the connection.

[lopburi3]

He is talking about borrowing funds to show immigration from money lenders.

[JetsetBkk]

He is talking about borrowing funds to show immigration from money lenders.

Yes, I understand that some people borrow money for three months and then transfer it back to the lender. But the borrower must still have a bank account and can get an ATM card and pass book. That's why I don't understand this bit:

People who do this will not be allowed by the 'lender' to get ATM cards, nor will they have possession of the pass book, except when they make 'accompanied' visits to immigration.

But it's hardly worth pursuing this unless Mobi wants to explain it.

[Mobi]

He is talking about borrowing funds to show immigration from money lenders.

Yes, I understand that some people borrow money for three months and then transfer it back to the lender. But the borrower must still have a bank account and can get an ATM card and pass book. That's why I don't understand this bit:

People who do this will not be allowed by the 'lender' to get ATM cards, nor will they have possession of the pass book, except when they make 'accompanied' visits to immigration.

But it's hardly worth pursuing this unless Mobi wants to explain it.

The borrower needs an unsecured loan of 800K for 3 months.

He has no assets to lodge against this loan.

The lender accompanies the borrower to the bank to provide the funds so that the borrower can open the account. The borrower sits next to the lender while the account is being opened. The lender is told by the borrower not to apply for an ATM card.

As they leave the bank the borrower hands the passbook to the lender who retains it for 'safekeeping'.

3 months later the borrower accompanies the lender to immigration. When there, he hands over the passbook, bank letters etc in order to process the visa.

I know for a fact that this kind of thing happened in the past when there was no requirement to retain the funds for 3 months and immigration were not so strict in checking that the funds came from overseas.

It is purely conjecture on my part as to whether the scenario I have outlined actually happens now .

[Guderian]

Weird isn't it? I had over 1.5 million Baht in my SCB SFF account when I went to see Jomtien Immigration 2 months ago. No ghoot, they said. Never mind that it's an account with a Thai bank, with proof that the money was brought in from overseas; never mind that the balance was almost twice the 800K Baht they insist on; the account was evidently the wrong sort. Given this type of pin-headed nit-picking, I don't find it too much of a stretch of the imagination to see them deporting people if they don't have a credit card in their own name, even if they have a couple of million sitting in a Thai bank account.

Guderian, far be it for me to defend any Immigrations office policy or action, but I think I could sorta, kinda see why they don't accept the SCB SFF account.

It is a mutual fund-type account of various investments (as detailed on the periodic statements they send you), and you own a certain number of shares of the fund. The amount of baht that is your current balance in your bank book can go up or down daily based on the share price, which is determined by the value of the component investment instruments at the end of each day. In theory, the value could drop to zero tomorrow and you'd have no funds to withdraw. In your particular case of B1.5m it is unlikely that your balance would drop below B800,000. However, another Joe Retiree could walk up next with a balance of B800,000 in his SFF Fund account. His account could easily drop below the holy threshold on any given day.

Beyond that, the Immigrations officers are not financial analysts and probably don't know (or care) how the SCB SFF (or any of the various other) fund account works. (After all, did YOU know that it was actually a fund account that you own shares of?) To keep things "simple," they prefer a standard, easily-recognizable savings account passbook.

So, as I say, I sorta kinda see their point. BTW, I have a SCB SFF Fund account, too.

Hi wpcoe,

Thanks for the information, but it's not what SCB told me when I opened the account. I asked then about the level of risk to the capital, but they said there is no risk, it's invested only in the interest-bearing deposit options available to the fund, which are listed in the regular statements (in Thai). Are there different types of SFF fund that have different levels of exposure? I assume that there must be to invest in the other options that they list.

I have a private pension fund in the UK with Standard Life, and every year they also send me such a list with all the available investment funds and their performance. But I know for certain that my pension is only invested in three categories, and is not spread across the whole lot.

And let's be honest, I think the current interest rate on the SFF fund I have is around 3% - would anyone in their right mind invest in an account where there was any risk to their capital for that piddly little rate of return? Nonetheless, it's a good point and the next time I am in SCB I will be sure to confirm what I was told when I opened the account. Thanks for bringing it up.

[JetsetBkk]

The borrower needs an unsecured loan of 800K for 3 months.

He has no assets to lodge against this loan.

The lender accompanies the borrower to the bank to provide the funds so that the borrower can open the account. The borrower sits next to the lender while the account is being opened. The lender is told by the borrower not to apply for an ATM card.

As they leave the bank the borrower hands the passbook to the lender who retains it for 'safekeeping'.

3 months later the borrower accompanies the lender to immigration. When there, he hands over the passbook, bank letters etc in order to process the visa.

I know for a fact that this kind of thing happened in the past when there was no requirement to retain the funds for 3 months and immigration were not so strict in checking that the funds came from overseas.

It is purely conjecture on my part as to whether the scenario I have outlined actually happens now .

AH! Thanks for the explanation - far too devious for me to have come up with.

I'd assumed the borrower was borrowing from a mate and there was some form of "trust" that the loan would be re-paid, but if it's purely a transaction between strangers then the lender would keep the pass book - and hence the "accompanying to immigration" that I didn't understand.

Well, I hope this doesn't happen too much because it makes life difficult for every genuine long-stayer. Thanks again for the explanation.

[Firefan]

Guderian; Yes, SFF is a mutual fund (and the one you picked is almost like a money market account - very safe-but there are also very agressive/risky SCB funds), but emmigration does only accept cash savings as mentioned (Incl. time deposits).

On a side note; the borrower probably have own Thai bank account with ATM card; and since account number not written on the card, and the card signature will match the signature on the borrowed 800k bank book(as opened in borrowers name), there is really NO logic in emmigration requesting that card?

Next requirement will logically have to be a letter from the bank issuing the card that the card is connected with this account number.

Cheers!