Is "farang" Impolite?

[meadish_sweetball]

Astute observation.

But many appear to have trouble accepting that their own cultural norms aren't universally valid, and that one norm applies in one situation, and another in the next.

Propagating for this cause is alright I guess, if it really bothers somebody that much. But to reach the people that matter, it would make a lot more sense to go campaigning in forums where Thais hang out.

[Jingthing]

And while considering this question, is ORIENTAL impolite as well?

[Kerryd]

I agree that it is more the context in which the word is used, rather than the word itself, that would make it impolite.

There are many words that could be considered rude and impolite if used or spoken in derisive manner. Take "boy" for example.

"Atta Boy ! Great job !" or "Hey boy, get a move on". Depending on how it is used, some people could/would/do take exception to it.

In the west we often refer to groups of people by their (percieved) ethnicity (Asians, Latinos, Indians, etc). Is it impolite to say that "The Asians (in British Columbia) are mostly located in the Richmond area" ?

Most Westerners would have a very hard time differentiating between people of Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, Thai or even Philippino heritage. They tend to get lumped together as "Asians". Same for Indians/Nepalese/Pakistanis. Mexicans/(and pretty much everyone from Central/South America) and so on.

For most Thais, trying to tell the difference between (mostly white, English speaking) people from the UK/USA/Australia/Canada/New Zealand is probably the same problem. However, we know that Thais tend to be a little more "straight forward" when talking (for example, calling you fat to your face). "PC Speak" hasn't made great inroads into the Thai language (yet), so calling someone who is obese "fat" to their face is more a statement of fact than an insult.

Calling someone a "farang" doesn't appear any different (to me). I'm a white, english-speaking foreigner. My friends that know my name call me by my name, but if we are in a group where many are strangers (to me), I may be referred to as "farang".

"Who owns that bike ?"

"My friend, Kerry"

"Who is that ?"

"The farang over there" (lone white guy standing in a group of Thais)

"Ahh, nice bike"

Should I feel insulted ?

There are other terms that could be used of course, some better than others. Farang appears to be the most common way (currently) of referring to Westerners. Languages evolve, over time, and eventually the term "farang" will no doubt be replaced with something else, perhaps with something that makes "farang" seem down-right formal.

It wasn't too long ago that many English speaking countries had words for other "ethnicities" that today are considered extremely rude, but back then were pretty much in everyday use. Kikes, Wops, Krauts, Japs, Wetbacks, Ragheads, etc.

(Most) of us would consider those terms to be very impolite (today).

Perhaps in generations to come, Thais may look at the term "farang" in the same way. Until you can get into every school in the land and start teaching a new generation that the term isn't considered acceptable anymore, it will continue to be used long into the future.

[Jingthing]

Perhaps in generations to come, Thais may look at the term "farang" in the same way. Until you can get into every school in the land and start teaching a new generation that the term isn't considered acceptable anymore, it will continue to be used long into the future.

I agree. There is nothing we can do to change the local Oriental culture. We are living here among the smiling Orientals and we might as well go along with the Oriental program.

[mizzi39]

Perhaps in generations to come, Thais may look at the term "farang" in the same way. Until you can get into every school in the land and start teaching a new generation that the term isn't considered acceptable anymore, it will continue to be used long into the future.

I agree. There is nothing we can do to change the local Oriental culture. We are living here among the smiling Orientals and we might as well go along with the Oriental program.

I asked my wife if she would be offended if people in America referred to her as "farang". Her reply was "No, why? I would be farang in America." Then I asked her if someone called her an Oriental would she be offended? Her reply "I not know this word" How about Asian? Her response (laugh), "I am Asian." Oriental is just an outdated adjective that means Asian.

The term Farang has no derogatory or racial implications, of please for those who think it does, get over it!

[elkangorito]

There once was a thing called Jing,

Who had incredibly thin skin.

A Thai said "Farang",

Jing spat, kicked & swung

but the Thai just smiled back at him.

[Jingthing]

There once was a thing called Jing,

Who had incredibly dry skin.

An Oriental said "Farang",

Jing sang, swilled & blinged

but the Oriental just burped.

BTW, who said I was bent out of shape being called Farang? Just saying we should conform to the local (IGNORANT) culture and follow in suit. If we all of European descent are all farangs, then all those of Asian descent are ORIENTALS. By adopting the word ORIENTAL, we are assimilating to the local (IGNORANT) culture. Why not?

Edited August 30, 2008 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

What bothers me about it when it is not being used in perjorative sense (obviously, it bothers me when it is!) is the implications that

- all persons of white skin share a common culture/ethnicity: in reality, they might be from an impoverished eastern European country, or from South Africa, or Europe, or the US etc etc. Not all of these places are developed countries, either.

- all persons from Europe/North America/Australia are white (obviously not true...but they don't call black Americans "farang", only white ones)

- the implied assumption that all persons with white skin are from (Western) Europe -- or, if they are not, that wherever it is that they are from is "just like" Europe.

Now these are not mean-spirited implications so much as ignorant, and while I of course tolerate it smiling, I must confess to disliking it. I much prefer the tendency in Cambodia to just say "boratey" which means foreigner (essentially the same as khon dtang prathet) and is applied across the board regardless of race etc, to anyone who is obviously not Cambodian...and which in no way suggests a common culture to which any sort of generalization could be applied.

[Jingthing]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS. So they are they same class of word today. It isn't our role to come here and educate the Oriental people. They will change when and if they want to change. Isn't my idea to CONFORM to their level (using ORIENTAL) much less patronizing and more egalitarian than just going along with the current status quo, accepting being called FARANG with a smile, but discriminating against the Orientals by calling them with a different class of word? In my view it is much more HARMONIOUS to conform with the smiling Oriental culture and respond like with like.

Personally, I deeply object to people coming here and try to change Oriental culture. However, those of us not from the Orient, we are capable and within our ethical rights of changing OUR behavior in RELATION to the culture here of the Orientals. That is my immodest proposal. Match the Orientals LIKE for LIKE. And have fun with it, because as we know in Orientalland FUN is highly valued.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Jingthing

[Crash999]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS. So they are they same class of word today.

As I'm sure you know, orient refers to things towards the 'East' so the term wouldn't have originated in America, itself being East of Asia.

This silly debate as to whether or not the word farang is rude reminds me of almost exactly the same type of bickering from some overly-sensitive people in Japan over the word gaijin, also meaning foreigner. In Japan Japanese people often refer to foreigners as *gasp* foreigners rather, than 'that person over there who just so happens to be from a different country than I am' or whatever else some people decide that they should be called.

Both words mean foreigner and aren't inherently rude unless used in a rude way.

[mizzi39]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS. So they are they same class of word today. It isn't our role to come here and educate the Oriental people. They will change when and if they want to change. Isn't my idea to CONFORM to their level (using ORIENTAL) much less patronizing and more egalitarian than just going along with the current status quo, accepting being called FARANG with a smile, but discriminating against the Orientals by calling them with a different class of word? In my view it is much more HARMONIOUS to conform with the smiling Oriental culture and respond like with like.

Personally, I deeply object to people coming here and try to change Oriental culture. However, those of us not from the Orient, we are capable and within our ethical rights of changing OUR behavior in RELATION to the culture here of the Orientals. That is my immodest proposal. Match the Orientals LIKE for LIKE. And have fun with it, because as we know in Orientalland FUN is highly valued.

You are really good for a laugh jingthing. No Thai would be offended by you calling them Oriental. They probably would not know what the hel_l you were saying anyway. Its Asian! Get with the times. The problem is that you start these rants and come off as being extremely patronizing. You are right, it is not your role to educate anyone. Remember, all farangs know that they are just visitors here, and Thais know it too.

I thought you had some balls jingthing. If the term farang offends you (according to your others posts) along with most things Thai, why do you stay?

[fred2007]

I just voted no, actually I really like being called a farang it makes me some thing special. What about Australia you call english people poms,american yanks,germans krauts and so on so what is the big deal?

[Naam]

And while considering this question, is ORIENTAL impolite as well?

yes, when <deleted> (worthy oriental gentleman) is used. as you are an american JT you might not be familiar with that expression which goes back to british colonial times.

[Jeddah Jo]

I guarantee if you called a Thai, kon Asia

คน เอเชีย

They would not take offence either. It seems only our neurotic overly politically correct American friend Jing Thing has a problem with labels that are clearly and manifestly accurate and true.

Who was it who said 'We hold these truths to be self-evident?'

JJ

[elkangorito]

You can call me anything except;

1] "late for dinner" and,

2] a "jing thing".

Recommended usage for number 2];

Illness:

Bill: "How is your missus?"

Fred: "She's sick in bed with a jing thiing."

Insult:

Thai 1: "How did you get that black eye?"

Thai 2: "A farang called me an "oriental" so I called him a "jing thing" & then he hit me."

[HS Mauberley]

Is this endless trolling about the meaning of 'farang' by a handful of members an official policy of the website in order to keep traffic up?

[Jingthing]

I guarantee if you called a Thai, kon Asia

คน เอเชีย

They would not take offence either. It seems only our neurotic overly politically correct American friend Jing Thing has a problem with labels that are clearly and manifestly accurate and true.

Who was it who said 'We hold these truths to be self-evident?'

JJ

I never said anything about using kon Asia. I said ORIENTAL. You didn't get that? I am politically correct? You think ORIENTAL is politically correct? You think an Oriental who says get the farang some water is politically correct? Hmmm.

[ray23]

Boy how did we get here. Isn't the word farrang really a left over during the time the French was heavly invloved in the region?

They have lots of thing things can refer to you as, besides farrang which aren't really a bit nice.

Farrang is normally used as a descriptive word, not being rude.

How many times have you said the Thai guy, not meaning to be rude but simply to establish who the person is that you are refering to?

When they start calling you Kii Nok thats is a different story.

They can be very insulting without ever using the word farrang.

Is it possible we can be a bit to sensitive at times?

Maybe we are more like Thai's then we care to admit

[Jingthing]

Yes of course, refer to the ORIENTAL guy. Glad you agree.

[mr_hippo]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS.

Isn't it backwards and racist when Americans refer to people as African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Japanese-Americans and so forth? Not only are they racist terms but are being actively promoted. They all all Americans!

Jingthing - a question for you. As an outsider, what is your opinion of the race?

[Jingthing]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS.

Isn't it backwards and racist when Americans refer to people as African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Japanese-Americans and so forth? Not only are they racist terms but are being actively promoted. They all all Americans!

Jingthing - a question for you. As an outsider, what is your opinion of the race?

No, those terms you mentioned are specific and respectful of people's specific backgrounds. Don't act like you don't know that already.

What race? Outsider to what?

[mahtin]

So a pinkish, 6 foot tall guy, with big nose weighing 90kg and wearing a tank top walks in to your shop. What term could you use that would eliminate all doubt about who you were talking about

Chang!

[Jingthing]

Back in your home country, you would almost certainly be referring to them as Asians, because you cannot always tell exactly which country they come from.

What Thais do by referring to a Caucasian as "farang" is no different.

This simply is mostly not true in Orientalland. If you tell a random Oriental your nationality, many will STILL call you a farang. Don't project. Now it is true if you befriend a specific Oriental and you tell them, please don't call me a farang, call me such and such, they are likely to comply but how do you think you will be referred to when you aren't there?

Do not act like this situation does not exist here among the smiling Orientals. You only insult our intelligence and show you don't have much experience here.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Jingthing

[JohnBanPrang]

Jt, time for your daily valium.

[Jingthing]

Does it sound RUDE & IGNORANT for me to continue to call the Orientals Orientals when it is true I know the specific nationality of the Orientals we are speaking about? Well? Rude & Ignorant, or not? If so, you would judge a European descent person one way and the Oriental another way? If it is rude for us to do that, how can you assert it is not rude for the Orientals to do the same thing here in Orientalland?

I will say one thing that I think is a myth about the Oriental culture here: the high level of POLITENESS that the Orientals here have such a high reputation for having is greatly overblown.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Jingthing

[mr_hippo]

No, those terms you mentioned are specific and respectful of people's specific backgrounds. Don't act like you don't know that already.

What race? Outsider to what?

Respectful? Respectful? That's BS and you know it, you are separating people based on race. People are being put into racial compartments and therefore suggesting that one group is superior to the others. Why is John McCain referred to as 'the presidential nominee' and Barck Obama is 'the African-Anerican presidential nominee'? Why isn't McCain referred to as the White American nominee? Yes, I do know that Obama had a Kenyan father but Barack was born on American soil to an American mother, is an American citizen and only holds an American passport so therefore he is American!

The race I was referring to is the human race...

Now, go and get a life, a hobby or just go outside and watch the traffic lights change colour - if you are lucky, the police may put the countdown numbers on for you!

[Jingthing]

I just disagree with you on your points, Hippo. I also think they are totally off topic and not relevant at all to the farang/Oriental discussion. Farang isn't a nationality and neither is Oriental. Thanks for sharing.

The human race? DOOMED, don't you agree?

Edited August 30, 2008 by Jingthing

[Misplaced]

Yes, it is backwards and ignorant. That is crystal clear. Backwards and ignorant in EXACTLY the same way as when Americans USED to call people of Asian descent ORIENTALS.

Isn't it backwards and racist when Americans refer to people as African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Japanese-Americans and so forth? Not only are they racist terms but are being actively promoted. They all all Americans!

Jingthing - a question for you. As an outsider, what is your opinion of the race?

No, those terms you mentioned are specific and respectful of people's specific backgrounds. Don't act like you don't know that already.

What race? Outsider to what?

From now on, we will refer to Jingthing as "MR. MANGO". That should solve his problem.

Mr. Mango, May be it's time to grow out of your insecurities. If it helps, you can call me "MR. ORIENTAL". It's the least I can do to help you psychologically.

[mr_hippo]

thingthing. Can you expand on that answer? Why do you disagree? I see that you have cried 'Off topic' yet again.

Edited August 30, 2008 by mr_hippo

[F1fanatic]

The topic is getting side-tracked into personal bickering! (Nothing new there!)

Generally, I accept that farang just means foreigner - fair enough. The problem arises when the tone is so obviously pejorative it makes you wonder whether the word really does have negative connotations.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure it does, and for very good reasons!

As always, it's always easy to look down on other nationalities in general, but when it comes down to a specific person, people will make up their own mind. The Thais are no different and generally, I've had no reason to take offence at the term.