Dying At Home In Chiang Mai

[hgma]

I am gonna open a thread in Laos social media  about this subject.......totally unknown to me but very important.

Thank you very much for sharing!

 

[soalbundy]

Very sorry to hear of your loss, Your post was written with great dignity without false pathos. I was moved by your post, i hope that she didn't suffer too much towards the end.

[soalbundy]

I believe one can leave a certified letter (tetsabaan) specifying who is to take care of the funeral, i see no need to contact the British embassy what has it got to do with them.

[Sheryl]

By law the body of a foreign nationsl cannot be released for cremation or burial without the permission of theit embassy. The purpose is to ensure that next of kin are notified.

Most embassies in Thailand have a registration system wherein you can provide next of kin/emergency contact info. Having this on file greatly expedites matters when you die. Otherwise the embassy has to notify the home office to do a search to figure out whom should be notified.

[soalbundy]

Just now, Sheryl said:

By law the body of a foreign nationsl cannot be released for cremation or burial without the permission of theit embassy. The purpose is to ensure that next of kin are notified.

Most embassies in Thailand have a registration system wherein you can provide next of kin/emergency contact info. Having this on file greatly expedites matters when you die. Otherwise the embassy has to notify the home office to do a search to figure out whom should be notified.

Thanks for that, my relations are either in Germany or Australia although i have a few that i have rarely or never met in the UK, would be quite a problem for the home office. Would that mean that my body would be rotting away in the coffin until they had contacted my daughter in Germany to get permission from her to allow my son (10 years old at present) and my partner to cremate me ?

[CMBob]

9 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

 Would that mean that my body would be rotting away in the coffin until they had contacted my daughter in Germany to get permission from her to allow my son (10 years old at present) and my partner to cremate me ?

If you've done nothing to avoid that, sure, that could happen.  And, in that case, a simple phone call to your daughter isn't going to do it....she'd have to sign a form or two, have it notarized (and/or certified by somebody at the governmental level), and return it to your local embassy/consulate before they are going to give any permission for release of your body.  You can check with your local embassy/consulate website to see if they lay out the what happens when one of their nationals dies here, procedures for locating a next-of-kin, etc.

Presuming you want your "partner" to handle proceedings (cremation), you ought to make a Will here and specifically make some provisions about that issue.  Your local embassy/consulate will honor a valid Will made here (although they may require it to be translated into your native language).  And, obviously, your Will ought to state who gets what from your estate and other usual provisions (and, presuming you're not married to your partner and you want your partner to be the executor or receive any of your estate, you really, really, need a Will here badly).

[scorecard]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:39 AM, Sheryl said:

By law the body of a foreign nationsl cannot be released for cremation or burial without the permission of theit embassy. The purpose is to ensure that next of kin are notified.

Most embassies in Thailand have a registration system wherein you can provide next of kin/emergency contact info. Having this on file greatly expedites matters when you die. Otherwise the embassy has to notify the home office to do a search to figure out whom should be notified.

As always clearly stated by Sheryl,  perhaps worth adding that you can also record on the Australian embassy website that you do not want any family nembers  or whoever to be informed. In this case makes it easy for the embasy staff, no search for NOK needed. My guess is this is possible with many embassies.

I have done this, plus my will clearly states that my Thai adult son makes all decisions.

Edited January 6, 2018 by scorecard

[JTXR]

My condolences on the loss of your friend.  Thank you for the very moving post.

Does anyone know if good hospice care available anywhere in Thailand?

[NancyL]

End-of-life care is available at McKean Rehabilitation Center in Chiang Mai.  They don't call what they do "hospice" since that has a specific meaning.  Instead, they work with the patient, the family and the attending physician of the patient to fulfill the patient's desires about end-of-life care.  This is why it's important to have an Advance Directive, i.e. Living Will that spells out what decisions you'd like to be made on your behalf about care and medical procedures if you can't make decisions yourself.  

 

In general, Thai hospitals will do everything possible to keep a patient alive as long as possible (regardless of ability to pay).  This includes elderly people, stroke victims, people with dementia, etc.  They use CPR, ventilators, drugs to fight infection, drugs to raise falling blood pressure, feeding tubes, kidney dialysis, etc to keep someone alive even when it's evident they will never again enjoy life, or actually even have a clue they're alive.   Meanwhile, the person is in an ICU unit that's like being inside a pinball machine, surrounding by whirling, noisy, pinging machines in a well-lit room, with people talking and moving around.  

 

At McKean, a dying person is in quiet private room, with minimal intrusion, no invasive medical treatment and kept comfortable with medications to control pain and anxiety.  Their mouth is kept moist with gentle swabs, but at end-of-life, it's not appropriate to use a feeding tube or IV with someone whose internal organs are shutting down.   The staff knows how to read the body language of someone to keep them in a comfortable position and certainly, they're kept clean and in a room that is cheery and at an appropriate temperature.   

[Dick Crank]

On February 21, 2018 at 4:32 AM, NancyL said:

End-of-life care is available at McKean Rehabilitation Center in Chiang Mai.  They don't call what they do "hospice" since that has a specific meaning.  Instead, they work with the patient, the family and the attending physician of the patient to fulfill the patient's desires about end-of-life care.  This is why it's important to have an Advance Directive, i.e. Living Will that spells out what decisions you'd like to be made on your behalf about care and medical procedures if you can't make decisions yourself.  

 

In general, Thai hospitals will do everything possible to keep a patient alive as long as possible (regardless of ability to pay).  This includes elderly people, stroke victims, people with dementia, etc.  They use CPR, ventilators, drugs to fight infection, drugs to raise falling blood pressure, feeding tubes, kidney dialysis, etc to keep someone alive even when it's evident they will never again enjoy life, or actually even have a clue they're alive.   Meanwhile, the person is in an ICU unit that's like being inside a pinball machine, surrounding by whirling, noisy, pinging machines in a well-lit room, with people talking and moving around.  

 

At McKean, a dying person is in quiet private room, with minimal intrusion, no invasive medical treatment and kept comfortable with medications to control pain and anxiety.  Their mouth is kept moist with gentle swabs, but at end-of-life, it's not appropriate to use a feeding tube or IV with someone whose internal organs are shutting down.   The staff knows how to read the body language of someone to keep them in a comfortable position and certainly, they're kept clean and in a room that is cheery and at an appropriate temperature.   

I don't want to die inside or with others around. Is it possible to state in the will to be at Mckean and in the final days be left in the forest at a specific spot selected beforehand?

[NancyL]

6 minutes ago, Dick Crank said:

I don't want to die inside or with others around. Is it possible to state in the will to be at Mckean and in the final days be left in the forest at a specific spot selected beforehand?

McKean is in a setting surrounded by large trees and beautiful landscape.  The hospital has large covered verandas and often patients who are confined to bed are wheeled out onto the verandas to enjoy the view and the sunshine if that is their wish.  And they can be left there for many hours, but someone will discretely check from time-to-time to make sure they are comfortable, not bothered by the sun or insects, etc. 

 

But it isn't realistic to leave someone who is dying in the forest by themselves where they could fall victim to insects or animals, or having a bodily requirement that needs to be tended.  Dying is often a messy process and it isn't right to leave someone in their own waste.   

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/22/2009 at 10:35 PM, WaiWai said:

TRAZ57, are you able to tell us much about how the woman's pain management was handled?

I think that is something of much concern to all of us; for ourselves as well as for others.

Very much so. I understand that Thai Drs are reluctant to use morphine, so how did she get on at home?

 

While I understand that she may have wished to die at home, it would have been so much simpler if she had been transferred to hospital in the last days. It's no problem for patients to have a single room with a couch for a relative to sleep on. I did that when my wife was in hospital.

[Amicitia]

Thanks for all the contributers to this topic .It will be of interest to all of us ,come the time 

Please let me add a twist to these scenarios ,maybe someone has an input :

German passport ,living in the US -Green card -resident alien for 40 years  , and half of the year in Thailand .

Whom do I need to notifiy ,the German or Us or both embassies ???

I realize the need to get my stuff in order ,so this will help me in that regard.

Thakns in advance.

[CMBob]

9 hours ago, Amicitia said:

......maybe someone has an input :

German passport ,living in the US -Green card -resident alien for 40 years  , and half of the year in Thailand .

Whom do I need to notifiy ,the German or Us or both embassies ???

If a person comes in and remains in Thailand under a German passport, it would be the German embassy that would be notified by the cops.  If a person came in and remains under a US passport, then it would be the US embassy/consulate.  And, of course, as been mentioned elsewhere, the body isn't going to be released from the hospital morgue until the applicable embassy/consulate release has been issued.

You actually don't have to notify any consulate/embassy as that'll be done by the cops in the case of the death of a foreigner.

[BobBKK]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:39 AM, Sheryl said:

By law the body of a foreign nationsl cannot be released for cremation or burial without the permission of theit embassy. The purpose is to ensure that next of kin are notified.

Most embassies in Thailand have a registration system wherein you can provide next of kin/emergency contact info. Having this on file greatly expedites matters when you die. Otherwise the embassy has to notify the home office to do a search to figure out whom should be notified.

what if it is 'nobody'?  I have no family in UK - can i pre-register that?

[NancyL]

On 1/22/2020 at 9:09 AM, BobBKK said:

what if it is 'nobody'?  I have no family in UK - can i pre-register that?

Yes, that would be most helpful.  Otherwise the Foreign Office will spend time trying to find someone.  Are you sure there is nobody -- no nieces or nephews, cousins, etc?

[Stubby]

I live alone at the moment, so I've created an Advanced Decision document. It's on my music stand, so it's easy for any authority to find that walks into the room. It outlines specific dos and don'ts, for both the Thai end and those in the UK. At the back of the document is a section on what do do with all my stuff. This way, there's no confusion in that area either.

 

MAKE IT SPECIFIC

 

Advanced Decisions must be specific and leave nothing open to interpretation.  Vague instructions can-and sometimes do-end up costing the uninitiated griever dearly. We've all heard the stories.

 

MAKE IT LEGAL

 

I'm informed that my Advanced Decision isn't legal until it's witnessed and a copy held with a local lawyer. I don't have a problem with that. I already know how much it costs and where I'm going to leave it. 

 

But I don't want someone from the UK to have the hassle of flying all the way out here to sign for the release of the body. I've asked a couple of people I know in CM if I could put their names on the file. Both refused, saying my requests are too grim and final, and they don't want any part of it. Fair enough. I hope that's one job I can also hand over to the lawyer. I'll post an update here if anyone's interested?

 

PEACE OF MIND

 

It's then a simple case of forgetting about it and getting on with life. It's a grim task, I know, but it's also one that brings enormous peace of mind knowing it's done and dusted ????

 

Stubby

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Stubby

[BobBKK]

17 hours ago, NancyL said:

Yes, that would be most helpful.  Otherwise the Foreign Office will spend time trying to find someone.  Are you sure there is nobody -- no nieces or nephews, cousins, etc?

Thank you. I guess there might be someone but I was not raised by my natural parents (both now dead). If there was someone it would be no one I know and I'd rather leave 100% to my Thai 'Sister' who will look after me in the waning years. I have a will here and might even marry her later just to ensure she gets the lot without interference from our Embassy etc. 

[NancyL]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:21 AM, BobBKK said:

Thank you. I guess there might be someone but I was not raised by my natural parents (both now dead). If there was someone it would be no one I know and I'd rather leave 100% to my Thai 'Sister' who will look after me in the waning years. I have a will here and might even marry her later just to ensure she gets the lot without interference from our Embassy etc. 

The best way to protect her is to have a Thai Final Will and name her as both the executor and beneficiary.  Then she will be the one who makes decisions about your funeral and your estate.

[scottiejohn]

3 hours ago, NancyL said:

The best way to protect her is to have a Thai Final Will and name her as both the executor and beneficiary.  Then she will be the one who makes decisions about your funeral and your estate.

Sorry about the following questions but you have raised some interesting points in your previous posts which I, and possibly many others in my situation, would like to know the answers to.

 

1.  What is a "Thai Final Will"?

2.  Is this specific to someone who only has Thai assets?

3.  What is the best way to provide for a Thai partner/friend who would be the only beneficiary of a single Thai bank account?  (all other Thai joint assets can be easily moved/recovered on my death-no need for a will for them)  Specifically the Retirement visa/extension fixed deposit account that can go to a friend/partner on my death.

 

Any advice/help on the above would be very helpful as I do not wish to go down the expensive Thai/UK lawyer "ripoff" route if there is a simpler solution available.

[NancyL]

On 1/29/2020 at 5:29 PM, scottiejohn said:

Sorry about the following questions but you have raised some interesting points in your previous posts which I, and possibly many others in my situation, would like to know the answers to.

 

1.  What is a "Thai Final Will"?

2.  Is this specific to someone who only has Thai assets?

3.  What is the best way to provide for a Thai partner/friend who would be the only beneficiary of a single Thai bank account?  (all other Thai joint assets can be easily moved/recovered on my death-no need for a will for them)  Specifically the Retirement visa/extension fixed deposit account that can go to a friend/partner on my death.

 

Any advice/help on the above would be very helpful as I do not wish to go down the expensive Thai/UK lawyer "ripoff" route if there is a simpler solution available.

A joint bank account in Thailand will be frozen upon the death of one of the account holders, although sometimes the other account holder does manage to "empty" the account before the bank knows of the death, but this action isn't legal.  There is no assumption that the balance remaining in a joint account belongs to the survivor.  

 

Just yesterday, I was talking with Rhys Bonney at Assist Thai Visa about exactly this matter for someone else and he said that if someone's only assets in Thailand are bank accounts -- no vehicles, no condo, etc, then they could do a simple one-page Final Will for a couple thousand baht.  All they need to know are the bank account details (like a copy of the title page of the bank books), the I.D. of the beneficiary and the I.D. of the executor.  The lawyer does not need to be the executor and in fact, I don't think it's a good idea to name the lawyer as the executor.  If the executor needs legal help, they can always hire an lawyer of their choice and pay from the estate.

 

I know that other lawyers in town will do simple Thai Final Wills for several thousand baht, also.

 

It's important to not only list all bank accounts, but also include language about how you want all future bank accounts in Thailand to be included in the Final Will.

[NancyL]

In Thailand, the executor and the beneficiary can be the same person.

[scottiejohn]

37 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I know that other lawyers in town will do simple Thai Final Wills for several thousand baht, also.

Thanks for your responses above.

 

Do you have any contact details of said lawyers?

[NancyL]

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

Thanks for your responses above.

 

Do you have any contact details of said lawyers?

Well, as I mentioned in the post, Assist Thai Visa has Thai lawyers on staff and also Lanna Lawyers.  No need for anything fancy if your only Thai assets are bank accounts, but it's important to have a Thai Final Will if you want to leave your bank accounts to someone who is not a spouse and/or if you have children from a previous relationship.  In Thailand, children inherit at the same level as a spouse, so your legal wife would have to share equally with your adult children from a previous relationship.  I've known of Thai wives who have had to give up condos because they couldn't buy-out the portion owned by the adult children of their late husbands.  

[scottiejohn]

20 minutes ago, NancyL said:

No need for anything fancy if your only Thai assets are bank accounts, but it's important to have a Thai Final Will if you want to leave your bank accounts to someone who is not a spouse

Thanks for that Nancy. 

I just don't get why you need a different type of Will (Will v Final Will) for a spouse and a non spouse/partner!

TIT!

Edited February 1, 2020 by scottiejohn

[Sparkles]

With a Bangkok Bank fixed account the wife, or someone you completely trust, can be a co signatory to the account .This is not indicated anywhere in the passbook just in their records.

 

Obviously you still need a will in event of both dying in an accident or whatever

[Kelsall]

Reading this thread with renewed interest given the Chinese have gained a foothold here in Chiang Mai.