Is Thaivisa Female-friendly?

[chiangmaibruce]

To the OP, I am sure many of us would enjoy the opportunity to "vent" on the issue of gender relations but not being moderators will never have the luxury of doing so (on Thaivisa). In just the same way, many will be unable to do justice to your post for fear of post deletion and/or warnings (about either supposed hateful attitudes, discussion of moderation or both).

As another has stated, presumably most of the stories you object to are in fact true. Yes, there are many more negative ones than positive ... but that pattern is true for any forum or medium, whether that be "letters to the editor", public meetings, whatever. People are more motivated to express themselves when they see themselves as slighted or hard-done-by. Just because people write about a problem they encountered involving a woman doesn't make them women-haters. Journalists publish a lot of stuff about war ... does that make them all war-mongers? etc etc. People talk about the reality of their lives and those of others around them, and this is important to them.

Do you/we want Thaivisa to be a forum for free adult to adult discussion about real-world realities for the purpose of mutual learning and better understanding ... or a window into some kind of Alice in Wonderland fantasy about how some particular people would like the world to be? By all means remove the extreme and the obscene, but this already happens - and then some. But perhaps, just perhaps, some people need to be a little more thick-skinned - and even in some cases learn to accept criticism where criticism is due.

In closing, I suspect that your suggestion that women don't participate in Thaivisa because of anti-female undertones, etc, may well be no more than speculation based on very limited feedback. My guess is that the key factor behind the preponderance of men on Thaivisa is that men are far more likely to be regular visitors to Thailand - simple as that. Plus, perhaps men are more content to communicate via writing than are women. What are the stats for other online forums? about any general interest topic - not just Thailand. Anyway Thaivisa has done one or more user surveys ... just what did these tell you about this issue?

Edited May 4, 2010 by chiangmaibruce

[TheItaliann]

Has she read your OP Bonobo? Did it work?

[givenall]

I would like agree with you that TV should be more female friendly, but in my experience I met 5 Thai ladies, and they all ended up trying to milk me dry. None of them where from bar or massage places. I met them in stores, one online.

Well practice make perfect

Any way finally I have found one and I Married and she is nothing like the others and I am very happy

[IanForbes]

I posted much the same thing in the Bedlam forum, bonobo, because I felt there are far too many negative replies on the general forum. However, I think there is a valid reason for what your post alludes to. Thailand is well known for being a relatively safe and friendly county to visit. There are many places in Thailand unlike anywhere else in the western world. In a bar in Europe or North America a man might be arrested if he said hello to an unattached lady if she didn't want his attention. In Thailand you get a friendly smile from everyone you meet. It's easy to start up a conversation and have the company of a pretty woman for the price of a drink... even if that is ALL you want. The word got around and all those guys who struck out at home came to Thailand to meet those pretty ladies of the night.

Unfortunately, many men are rather stupid when it comes to women and they assume all sorts of things that just aren't true. Guys fall in love and let the little head do all the thinking. When the inevitable happens, and the poor bloke gets taken for a ride, he grows bitter and comes to thaivisa to complain. Some of the complaints might be valid, but he only has himself to blame. The known nightlife areas are a magnet for lowlifes and all sorts of weird characters. That some of them wind up on thaivisa is only natural.

Fortunately, some of us have learned from our mistakes and don't blame others for them. We have come to understand Thais and Thai culture much better, and love the place for what it offers and not for what we want to make it into. Certainly Thailand has many faults, but name me a country that doesn't.

What I DO know for certain is if I could have a bar like the many I see in Thailand, and transport it to America in its entirety, I'd be a multi-millionare within a year. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work because all my staff would disappear within a week. And, of course, all the bigoted, self righteous people in America would have it closed down a week after it opened.

[Jingthing]

I tend to assume most posters are male unless they make it clear they aren't. Like you said in your OP, most posters ARE male. Given that, it really isn't surprising that the board suffers from what feminists call testosterone poisoning.

[bonobo]

I have worked in two large businesses where I was the only male executive (health care and a women's college). I noticed a duplicity of this objectifying phenomenon. Lunches, staff meetings after hours relaxing functions and conventions were all filled with men bashing jokes and objectifying men in general. Serious non business discussions were reserved for divorce strategy planning and why cats were better than husbands.

 I served as a Marine, and if you don't think there were a lot of frankly sexually-oriented and objectifying conversations about women, then you are mistaken.  

But the point here is about posters who are making it uncomfortable of other members.  As Marines, we never spoke like the above if women were present.  Our language may be foul with each other, but at home, with our parents, we cleaned up our acts.

Most posters here would not make disparaging posts about ethnic groups other than Thais.  No bashing of other races.  And there is not a lot of bashing due to sexual persuasion.  But for women, Muslims, obese people, and yes, for male expats of the older-than-50 crowd, too, the same constraints don't seem to be in effect.

[TheItaliann]

There is a reason why Western men prefer Thai women to Western women. Its because they have better personalities and maintain their physical features longer. I am a big fan of Western women but the sad truth is that its all downhill physically from 22 or so. They really have to work to maintain their shape and the vast majority don't.

[Boo]

actually I have been told my many women who once were members of thaivisa or who were thinking of joining that they don't contribute because of the blatent & disgusting comments that have been made about women over the years.

Open discussion just isn't possible when there are still childish & rude posters who have to resort to derogatory & quite frankly gross & offensive phrases & comments about women, their looks, their personalities, their actions, basically everything. The reason we (female mods) take such a hard stance is that we don't want nor do we have to, read what your personal issues are with women.

As to another posters "claim" about the ladies forum, I suggest you take it up with support (at) thaivisa.com instead of constantly airing your issues over it on the open forum.

[Old Croc]

A question was asked in the first few words of the title of this thread, then ignored as the OP launched into an attack on men in the rest of his post.

He appears to have a one sided view of the subject, and his status on the forum may tend to hinder posters who might wish to disagree with some of the conclusions reached. This type of heavy handed attitude by the people who run the forum could even have spurred some frustrated posters to have made the sort of posts that are outside reasonable guidelines.

Feel free to disagree with anything I, or any other moderator, for that matter, post as a member.  (Criticisms of moderation, though, as always, should be addressed via PM or by writing [email protected].)

I take issue with your first sentence, though.  I asked a question, then gave my reasons for asking it.  Pretty simple, I think.  And I was careful to write that not all men fall into this category, and that much of what I wrote was prefaced as my feelings or opinions.  So how my posts that I feel some men might be making it uncomfortable for our female members is an attack on men in general is really beyond me.  And as I also posted that this is only from some male posters, I am not sure how that can be construed as one-sided.

In retrospect my opening probably came across a little harsher than I intended. Apologies.

I tried to express the way I felt about a thread that asked the question "Is TV female friendly?", but then launched into a scathing attack against men.

I hope I warmed up as I went on.

Incidently, you should have seen the paras I deleted that had some strong views about moderation. I thought they may have detracted from the rest of my thoughts.

[Skytrain2hell]

oh dear, some pretty predicable posts from the usual suspects but some thoughtful posts too. Nice try bonobo but sadly the victims & haters will always be victims & haters cause it is always someone else fault & never anything to do with them

Exactly. And the same situation comes up everywhere in life...in the office, forums, and even in family.

In addition to the language barrier, we don't see many female posters (assuming most interested females would be Thai) on here because of the subject matter and dominating male presence. The only forum that I've seen where (mostly) Thai women are encouraged and even rewarded to post in English is on Thailandfriends.com. But even there the typical farangs sometimes come and take out their "I hate Thailand but I still live here" aggression on the girls, which is saddening to say the least.

Maybe Thaivisa can open up a forum that is more welcoming to Thai women or even just Thais in general? Almost like a newbie forum where any bashing is not tolerated.

[cdnvic]

I do agree that many TV male posters become misogynistic ("misogynistical" is not a word) 

Yes, I know and tried to change it, but there isn't an editing function for sub-titles!  (And you are also invited to read the thread on corrections of others' writing.    )  

Fixed

[Old Croc]

actually I have been told my many women who once were members of thaivisa or who were thinking of joining that they don't contribute because of the blatent & disgusting comments that have been made about women over the years.

Open discussion just isn't possible when there are still childish & rude posters who have to resort to derogatory & quite frankly gross & offensive phrases & comments about women, their looks, their personalities, their actions, basically everything. The reason we (female mods) take such a hard stance is that we don't want nor do we have to, read what your personal issues are with women.

As to another posters "claim" about the ladies forum, I suggest you take it up with support (at) thaivisa.com instead of constantly airing your issues over it on the open forum.

Once again Boo you come in with all guns blazing behind your protective vest. My views were expressed here in this open forum because they were asked for by a moderator.

If by "constantly" you mean the perhaps two times I have aired the issue over about six years then you are right. The last time was in a restricted forum and was in response to about 13 derisive posts you made against myself and a number of others who had a different and legitimate issue to raise.

I think your last sentence in the second para explains a lot.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Old Croc

[IanForbes]

Thailand is a male dominated society run by women. Some people have difficulty grasping this concept.

You said a mouthful there, Mark. I agree. But, once you learn to play the game it's an enlightening experience... just so long as you can afford the life style. And, it's certainly less expensive than the marriage thing in North America.

I think it's only natural that some western women carry a chip on their shoulder while in Thailand. I'm not sure I could handle the experience if I was in their shoes. After all, it is a fact that they are outnumbered by the serious competition.

[bonobo]

I do agree that many TV male posters become misogynistic ("misogynistical" is not a word) 

Yes, I know and tried to change it, but there isn't an editing function for sub-titles!  (And you are also invited to read the thread on corrections of others' writing.    )  

Fixed

Well, I guess there was an editing function, but I was too obtuse to figure it out!  

Thanks!

[BSJ]

Some people always act and talk like life has served them a sh1t sandwich.

Me, I like the Forrest Gump analogy: Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.

If it turns out to be good I am smiling!

[mark45y]

actually I have been told my many women who once were members of thaivisa or who were thinking of joining that they don't contribute because of the blatent & disgusting comments that have been made about women over the years.

Open discussion just isn't possible when there are still childish & rude posters who have to resort to derogatory & quite frankly gross & offensive phrases & comments about women, their looks, their personalities, their actions, basically everything. The reason we (female mods) take such a hard stance is that we don't want nor do we have to, read what your personal issues are with women.

As to another posters "claim" about the ladies forum, I suggest you take it up with support (at) thaivisa.com instead of constantly airing your issues over it on the open forum.

It would not bother me to read what your personal issues are with men. I think it would be interesting. It wouldn’t bother me in the least. So feel free to post them.

[bonobo]

actually I have been told my many women who once were members of thaivisa or who were thinking of joining that they don't contribute because of the blatent & disgusting comments that have been made about women over the years.

Open discussion just isn't possible when there are still childish & rude posters who have to resort to derogatory & quite frankly gross & offensive phrases & comments about women, their looks, their personalities, their actions, basically everything. The reason we (female mods) take such a hard stance is that we don't want nor do we have to, read what your personal issues are with women.

As to another posters "claim" about the ladies forum, I suggest you take it up with support (at) thaivisa.com instead of constantly airing your issues over it on the open forum.

Once again Boo you come in with all guns blazing behind your protective vest. My views were expressed here in this open forum because they were asked for by a moderator.

How was Boo coming in in guns ablazing "behind your (her) protective vest?"  She had a valid point about talking with other women, and I welcome reading about it.

And while moderation isn't the issue here, she replied to comments which referred to it in other posts.  I take that as laudatory when posts on moderation could have been simply deleted and warnings given.

As I am curious to the responses given, to include yours, let's all refrain from bringing moderation into this discussion and keep it on topic.

[GreenSnapper]

On a daily basis, I read posts which deride Thai women as being money-hungry scam artists, of being stupid, of being unable to love, and so on. I read posts which deride Western women as being sexless harpies who hate men, take everything in a divorce, are "fat, disgusting slobs," are "bitches," and so on.

Can it be for a simple reason: that is what many men experience here or in their home country?

In know, this is absolutely politically incorrect. It is also not my personal experience, but I know lots of men who have been fleeced back home or here. They should have a right to talk about it, and not censored away.

Back home, and also somewhat in ThaiVisa, women are regarded as wonderful princesses, without any fault, but under permanent alleged discrimination. Women are victims and men are offenders.

But if free speech is not suppressed, the picture is not as simple. In most western countries, there is an enormous divorce industry, which has only one aim: get as much money out of men as possible.

Many men end up here in Thailand with exactly that experience. Lost most of their assets they have worked long hours for decades. And getting deprived of seeing their children but are forced to pay for them.

Then they come here, find their little "paradise" and the water buffalo story begins. Getting fleeced again, even not on such an extreme scale as back home.

Experiences like that makes people bitter. It is fully understandable. And recent years have shown, that men no longer accept being the butt of the world.

They stand up and name the facts.

[bkkjames]

This is an interesting (topical) topic in the ladies forum..

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Women-I...rs-t344118.html

[Boo]

Old croc, where am I all guns blazing? I gave a reason why women don't post & then said why we can't allow posts about women too much as some posters are unable to conduct themselves in a civil manner. If you read that to be directed at you then maybe you have to ask yourself why?

[centrico]

Different experiences for different people. Most from back home have had at least one relationship turn sour and when they start to look for a new relationship find that what is available to the majority of men do not measure up to their ideal. Many English women are larger than they used to be. That is OK if you like larger women and by larger I personally mean women over size 12.

IMHO many English women have an attitude that has changed over the last 40 years. Now most are not home makers. They want more and more independence, to go out working, to no longer cook and clean and iron. They seem to be less caring and loving.

WAIT !! Before you slag me off

Many older men would have had a mother who took care of things. She made a home, cooked breakfast and dinner. Many did their own baking. They did the washing, cleaning, ironing and most chores around the house. They gave you love and affection. If you had a problem they gave sympathy. A grazed knee? They tended the graze.

Nowadays women are not the same. They do not live up to that ideal many older men have of the female of the species. In the 50's 60' 70's you could find a woman like your mother who would take care of things. That changed. I am not saying it is right or wrong.

Here in Thailand I think many have this idea that the women here care. I believe most Thai women away from the Farang scene do care. Most Thai women have bad stories to tell about useless, butterfly Thai men. Women here are the home makers. They do the cooking cleaning and almost everything else as well as going out to work. Family ideals still persist here in the vast majority of cases. For a lot of men that seems like a piece of heaven. Heaven until many do get ripped off. That being the fault of the man in most cases because he believes he has found this little paradise and is lulled into a sense of false security. Then when he is stung by this love of his new found life he becomes bitter. That is natural. He has had his dream shattered.

For those stung here and back home they will be vitriolic in their outpourings to any who will listen. Yet there are scheming b*tches everywhere. Slim ones, young ones, fat ones and older ones too. There are also many loving and caring women of all shapes and sizes yet we hear less about them.

If a woman looks into the forum and sees the vitriol poured out, I think she would be wary of interacting with the members here. Yet without that vitriol there would be no warnings of what you can lose besides your heart. Surely it is no less than you would hear in the local Ale House back home? And not only the men mouthing off either

My threepennorth, not that it is worth much

Source? Life here, there and a few other places

[GreenSnapper]

Here in Thailand I think many have this idea that the women here care. I believe most Thai women away from the Farang scene do care.

I'd say, most Thai women away from the bar scene do care. And western men care as well.

But then, bitching about the bad experiences is much more common than telling the positive experiences many men here have.

It is human too

[TheItaliann]

Real life requires men to be PC towards women. On the internet you are going to hear the truth. Sure, there are some jaded dregs done over by Thai gals but it doesn't change the fact that what you might view as sexist is the way that 99% of men act in real life when you aren't around. It's a man's world. God forbid you speak Thai and know about the way that Thai men talk and act in their place of business. Put an ad out for "White skinned leggy secretary who has sexy attire and can type" or the national male pastime of Thailand. Basically, if you are a PC person, Thailand is the last place in the world for you. Of course, many Westerners take great pride in feeling like they are different from everyone else and unique so I expect some firm rebuttals.

[doggie888888]

What I don't understand is when a poster expresses a clearly misogynistic view (eg all women are bad and out to get their hands on your $$$ because I divorced one in the west and a thai girl ripped me off here in Thailand) or a racist view (eg all Thais are dishonest because of my one experience bla bla...), the poster then denies he is misogynist or racist. If whatever they had expressed were dictionary type definitions of "misogynist" and "racist", why so shy in accepting labels that accurately describe their views? After all, same posters are usually happy to accept "hansum man" as a label whether it applies or not!

I can only conclude they do not know the meaning of those words or else deep inside they know they are somehow wrong in their generalisations. And when they are unable to produce any rational arguments to escape those labels, they often deride any opposing views, no matter how rational, as attempts at political correctness.

[bonobo]

Can it be for a simple reason: that is what many men experience here or in their home country?

In know, this is absolutely politically incorrect. It is also not my personal experience, but I know lots of men who have been fleeced back home or here. They should have a right to talk about it, and not censored away.

I believe you are missing the point here.

No one is censoring anyone else from relating his or her story.  And if some man got fleeced in his supposed relationship with a Thai scam artist, and he wants to tell that story to the rest of the membership, that is fine.

The problems comes when that turns into "all Thai women are scam artists."  Or "all English women let themselves go." Or "all women whatever."

There are extremely honest Thai women just as there are some of dubious morals.  But just because a person found one on the more dubious side, that does not negate the fact that many are honest.  And when all women are labeled one way or the other, that effects everyone.

We have had male posters here expressing gratitude that they found a loving, caring wife here in Thailand.  Seems innocuous enough.  But then the naysayers come out in droves and criticize the poster and label all THai women as scheming scam artists.  Is that really necessary?   Why denigrate a poster who is happy with his lot?

Writing that "Miss so-and-so said she loved me, but she scammed me out of a house" is a valid post.  But posting "all Thai women are trying to scam all men out of a house" is wrong, in my opinion. It is not only incorrect, but it leads to an atmosphere in the forum which is not healthy.

[sbk]

IMO real life requires good manners. If that is PC then so be it, but I see nothing wrong with considerate polite behavior.

[sarahsbloke]

Thailand is a playground for western men.

Western women don't like Thailand (generally), they don't like the men who come here.

Women don't 'play' internet forums as much as men, much fewer female geeky types.

So hardly surprising that women don't have much to do with this site.

(although there do seem to be a few women who camp out to pick fault with the male posters)

One woman on this site called me a racist for posting something about 'western women'

When I objected and asked her to change the 'racist' label she wished to attach to me, she then insisted that western women=white women and I was therefore a racist. I have no problem with the colour of any persons skin, but as an over 50 male have no wish to interact with women that have spent any amount of time in western society, they have no interest in me, I have no interest in them. I don't hate them, or anyone for that matter, I am always polite to everyone I meet. But that doesn't mean I choose to spend any of my time with them. I feel this forum is generally unfair to men, but what the heck, I'm used to that by now.

Maybe the title of this thread should be "Is Thai Visa male-friendly, Many female posters seem to hate western men"

Edited May 4, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[IanForbes]

Actually, women who don't come across as feminazis are treated with utter respect on every forum I've ever been associated with. I don't know anyone who doesn't like eek, Patsycat or the Lioness, and enjoy their imput. We might have our differences of opinion on certain subjects, but that is as far as it goes. Most men are a bit like white knights in shining armour and try to protect the ladies... who ACT like ladies. And, the men who complain all the time about women are treated with utter contempt by most reasonable men.

That said, many men have valid complaints about women, but most of those men are ridiculed BY OTHER MEN, because they only have themselves to blame. Why that would bother some woman on an open forum only shows their OWN insecurities.

The ladies forum is in place because women have their own problems specific to gender. Men don't need to respond to topics about feminine hygiene or pregnacy tests. Men don't need to respond to a request for a ladies night out. But, if a topic asked a question that might include a man's viewpoint then men might respond.

You seldom see any bickering in the other specific forums related to sports or technical stuff.

[TheItaliann]

IMO real life requires good manners. If that is PC then so be it, but I see nothing wrong with considerate polite behavior.

Of course, I agree. That is why I ask PC in real life. I don't act PC on Thai Visa because its behind a computer screen and there is no real motivation to do so. If each member had to use their real name and had their picture as an avatar, I would once again be PC. I don't really think I would post anyways though since being PC is boring.

My main point is that a poster who might disgust a female user might be her husband in the other room unbeknown to her.

Man act very differently when they are not in your presence. I know that many women have been hurt by this realization and I do strongly feel bad for women as this is very much a Man's world.

[bonobo]

Real life requires men to be PC towards women. On the internet you are going to hear the truth. Sure, there are some jaded dregs done over by Thai gals but it doesn't change the fact that what you might view as sexist is the way that 99% of men act in real life when you aren't around. It's a man's world. God forbid you speak Thai and know about the way that Thai men talk and act in their place of business. Put an ad out for "White skinned leggy secretary who has sexy attire and can type" or the national male pastime of Thailand. Basically, if you are a PC person, Thailand is the last place in the world for you. Of course, many Westerners take great pride in feeling like they are different from everyone else and unique so I expect some firm rebuttals.

I am not denying that men can be fairly misogynist in their words when with male friends or co-workers.  But let me ask you this.  Would you talk to your mother in the same way?  If you want to call that PC, fine.  I just call it common courtesy. And I think the same courtesy should hold true in any public forum (using the generic meaning of the word here.)