Israel offers to extend moratorium on settlements if Palestinians recognize it as Jewish state

[Jingthing]

Anyone who suggests that Jews should have/could have safely returned to Germany, Poland, etc. after WW2 is simply totally misinformed and/or a virulent anti-semite. (BTW, Poles were as bad as the Germans on this.) Yes, you are correct Zionism predated the holocaust, I never said it didn't. The holocaust proved the impetus for world powers to help make the Jewish state officially happen in the form of Truman and the UN. Of course not all Jews are Zionists, but most do indeed support the survival of Israel as a Jewish state. I am not sure if Israel would ever have become a state if the holocaust didn't happen, I would guess no, but it DID happen.

If you don't understand how stupid the suggestion is that Jews should have moved back to their old homelands after the war, read some history. I am sorry but I don't deem communicating with you any further worth my time. You so seem interested in Jews in a creepy way, how do they know they are Jewish indeed (perhaps measure their noses?). Find a Jew who want to spends time with you, someone more patient than me.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[SergeiY]

Anyone who suggests that Jews should have/could have safely returned to Germany, Poland, etc. after WW2 is simply totally misinformed and/or a virulent anti-semite. If you don't understand how stupid that suggestion is, read some history. I am sorry but I don't deem communicating with you any further worth my time. You so seem interested in Jews. Find a Jew who want to spend time with you, someone more patient than me.

Okay troll. FYI: That was on a different continent.

The holocaust was real, Antisemitism exist - I am not denying that.

And you are using it as a strawman argument, because no sane mind will argue against it, will not deny the Holocaust nor find any other antisemitic pogrom in Europe justified. And yes there were pogroms in Poland shortly after the WW2. And the whole commie block wasn't that friendly to Jews either. I know that.

The problem is it has all nothing to with the nationalistic zionist movement and ethno/religious-centric concept of Israel as the Jewish state.

And i question the legitimacy of the RETURN to the god given promised land in a colonialist reconquista style.

They should have tried to blend in, to integrate. build there their little Kibbutz, but don't come and take over the land with the claim it was a gift by God to us dated back in the days of father Abraham and all others should leave now, because its now the Jewish Demockracy State.

[SergeiY]

You so seem interested in Jews in a creepy way, how do they know they are Jewish indeed (perhaps measure their noses?).

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't argue here in a creepy way, you are the one who does it.

[Pakboong]

I point to Islamic states to show that states founded on a particular religion are quite common in the world to rebut the notion that the desire of Jews to have their own and only Jewish state to be some kind of unreasonable deviation.

What makes a person Jewish is simply having a Jewish mother. There are other less common ways, but that is the gold standard.

Of course, to the Nazis your great grandfather only could have been Jewish and they would still gas you. So go figure.

Next ...

I thought we keep the nazis out of the debate?

So what makes a Jewish mother Jewish? It some kind of irrational religious thing, right? And its a colonialist settler movement based on some irrational religious beliefs and obscure fairy tale about was few thousand years ago.

Where are the parents and grandparents born of all the people there involved in the conflict?

It's not realistic to keep the Nazis out of the debate about why Israel exists and will continue to fight to exist, as Jewish state. Also, the more extreme anti-Israeli side has taken to calling Israelis the same as Nazis and such charges need to be discussed, as they are out on the table. They know it is a hot button for Jews to be called Nazis, so the Nazis are still part of the current debate.

A Jewish mother becomes Jewish by having a Jewish mother. It's not that complicated. It's ethnic identity passed through the matrilenial line, read some anthropology. Not an unusual thing among many other peoples in the world.

Do you ask such silly basic questions about OTHER people's in the world, such as the Kurds, Navajo Indians, Thai sea gypsies, etc.? Do you have a special hangup about Jews, perhaps being Russian? Don't be shy, it's a common thing.

JT, I understand the right of Israel to do what any other country might do. There are however, too many similarities between the Gaza Strip and the Warsaw ghetto for my liking. Had I been alive in 1940 I would have been just as disturbed with the Warsaw Ghetto as I am with the Gaza Ghetto. I do not want to take an anti Jewish position on this as I prefer to maintain an anti Zionism stance only. All Jews are not Zionists and all Zionists are not Jews.

As I am sure you are aware, some 330,000 Jews were forced into a Ghetto displacing roughly 130,000 Poles. The area made up only 2.4% of Warsaw but held roughly a third of the city's population. In the beginning they were supposed to live normal lives. They were eventually starved, walled in and forced to live in horror just to survive. The Nazi's tried to block all aid to the ghetto just like Israel is doing to Gaza today. How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto. The Warsaw Ghetto worsened from 1940 to 1943 when the uprising ended it and the remaining 60,000 Jews were deported. There is nothing to say that Israel will not at least try and do this to the Palestinians. It is the worsening of conditions that drives my opinion on this matter. The wall, the blockade although perhaps not as extreme, there are too many similarities. The Israelis have time that the Nazis did not have so who is to say what they are up to and how long it will take for this situation to worsen to the extreme.

Rabin while still alive made a public statement that he wanted Israel to be 80% Jewish. He saw the remaining 20% as doing the unpleasant chores. That is just as racist as the US president saying he wanted the US to be 80% White and we need only 20% brown to pick the lettuce.

[Ulysses G.]

How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Nazis forced innocent people who had done nothing but be born the wrong religion into one area so that they could eventually be exterminated.

The Palestinians have waged war on Israel for more than 60 years and have brought most there poor conditions upon themselves by refusing to make peace and blowing up civilians. There is no correlation at all.

[philw]

How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Nazis forced innocent people who had done nothing but be born the wrong religion into one area so that they could eventually be exterminated.

The Palestinians have waged war on Israel for more than 60 years and have brought most there poor conditions upon themselves by refusing to make peace and blowing up civilians. There is no correlation at all.

Your description of of Nazi actions could just as easily and accurately apply to Israeli treatment of Gaza.

The similarities to Warsaw are clear and self evident.

It's also fair to say that the Israelis have waged war on the Palestinians for more than 60 years.

It's a two way street.

[geriatrickid]

Here's the summary of points made;

1. Israel bad, Very very bad.

2. The USA is controlled by the Israel lobby, because Israel is very very bad.

3. Indigineous arabs, (the Bedouin and Christians) don't count. The fact that they have integrated into the population is ignored. Can't have any mention of successful arabs because they are all supposed to be killers, terrorists and uneducated.

I really didn't need to read the thread for that idiotic simpleton claptrap which has been done to death. There are alot of arabs fed up with the idiocy, just as there are Israelis fed up with it. Everytime an arab tries to do something positive for peace, he or she gets murdered because the rest of the arab world needs a conflict in Israel to take the heat off of their failed states.

MMkay. So way down the page is a nice article on Hamas raiding the Palestinian Journalists Association. I guess the journalists were not staging enough photo opps. Not one word of concern of the bleaters claiming Israel oppresses rights.

Ok, so Israel wants to have a pledge of allegiance. Why is that objectionable? No one is compelled to take the pledge. However, if one wants to have the benefits of the state, what is so wrong with asking those immigrants seeking citizenship to accept that Israel is a jewish state and a democracy? You people do realize that there are already several laws in effect that say this already right? And you do realize that the Israelis still cannot agree amongst themselves as to the definition of a jew. Approx. 1/4 of the Russian immigrants to Israel are not even considered jews although they vote en mass for the right wing parties. Israel is mostly secular. BTW, are any of you folks up in arms over the US Pledge of Allegiance? How about the UK. Are you aware that immigrants are required to take an oath of allegiance promising to faithfully support the British monarch. The Queen is head of the Church of England, a Christian denomination. As well, all immigrants are required to promise loyalty to the United Kingdom, respect for its rights and freedoms, to uphold its democratic values, observe its laws faithfully and to fulfil the duties and obligations of a British citizen. The oaths require atheists to accept God. ... swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law. The proposed Israeli oath is modelled along the lines of the US and UK oaths.

Are people upset because the Israeli pledge for immigrants recognzes the Jewish character of Israel? Well gosh darn it. Maybe someone had better advise Thailand, that a national religious culture is very bad form.

The Economist sums up this silliness best;

Privately, Palestinians say that anyone seeking citizenship will take the oath anyway. The definition "Jewish and democratic" appears, after all, in several existing Israeli laws. Privately, too, PA officials explain that they might consider recognising Israel as the Jewish state—thereby effectively forgoing the Palestinian Right of Return—but only in the context of a comprehensive peace package, not in exchange for a tiny step forward in the form of a two-month extension of the settlement-building freeze. Perhaps the vitriol is part of the game-plan. The more Palestinian anger, the greater the gratification on the Israeli far-right, the easier, politically, for Mr Netanyahu to go back to negotiating. More likely, though, as the rhetoric of demagoguery rises, the prospects of negotiation dim. That is a great shame. The same Palestinian rejection of Mr Netanyahu's recognition demand, couched not slightingly but in positive and statesmanlike language, could hoist him on his own petard. If President Mahmoud Abbas were to say, let's get back to the talks and talk about recognition, too, Mr Netanyahu would be hard put to keep stalling.

It's all about negotiating. One must never show weakness in negotiating with those of a Middle Eastern background. Whther they are Muslim, Christian, Jew or Bahai, the mentality is the same. Show weakness and you get trampled.

Edited October 13, 2010 by geriatrickid

[siampolee]

Israel Should Respect Rights of Migrant Workers

With foreign workers, Israel has its cake and eats it too

by Bill Van Esveld and Allie Chen

Published in:

GlobalPost

OCTOBER 8, 2010

MORE COVERAGE:

More Human Rights Watch Reporting on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

The Israeli Interior Ministry says it is about todeport between 1,000 and 1,200 children of foreign workers. Prime Minister Netanyahu justified the deportations - which would include children who are not enrolled in school, do not speak fluent Hebrew, or are less than five years old, among others - as a deterrent to "illegal immigration that could flood the foundation of the Zionist state" with non-Jewish immigrants.

The prospect of deporting children outraged many Israelis, including some cabinet ministers, and set off protests in Tel Aviv. But the children's plight is merely one consequence of Israel's policies to limit migrant workers' ability to claim residency rights. These harsh policies break families apart and leave workers vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.

Under Israeli regulations, migrant domestic, agricultural and industrial workers are "bound" to individual Israeli employers. If a worker's employment ends for any reason - even if she quits because of abuse or non-payment of wages - her visa is cancelled, leaving her in Israel "illegally" and at risk of deportation.

Even when workers are abused, many cannot afford to quit. Most foreign workers incurred sizable debts to arrange their visas. Israeli law sets legal limits on these fees, but the law is rarely enforced. In reality, most migrant workers pay between $3,000 and $30,000 to agents in their home countries, who then split the fees with Israeli agencies, according to Israeli rights groups.

The majority of Israel's estimated 200,000 foreign workers entered the country legally, according to rights groups, as Israel has sought to replace the Palestinian work force since the second intifada, or uprising, began in 2000.

As with the "sponsorship" or kifala system of many other Middle Eastern countries, Israeli policies make foreign workers extremely vulnerable to exploitation. In 2006, Israel's Supreme Court found that the "binding" policy "has created quasi, modern-version slavery" where "the foreign worker had become a serf of this employer," and gave the government six months to cancel it.

Four years on, it hasn't.

Other policies, purportedly to discourage foreign workers from any activity that could strengthen their claims to Israeli residency, make it impossible for many foreign workers to have any form of family life.

An Interior Ministry regulation forbids migrant workers from entering Israel with "first-degree" (i.e. close) family members, like a spouse or a child, since that could indicate an intention to settle in the country. But the ministry interprets this regulation to apply even if the worker marries or has children in Israel. Virtually all children of migrant workers in Israel are present here illegally.

These policies have been merciless to families. In June, for example, immigration police arrested Charlene Ramos and Judser Maclenda, legal migrant workers, two days after their marriage. The police "allowed" the Filipino couple to choose which of them would be deported. Israeli non-profit groups appealed Ramos' subsequent deportation order. A court decision is pending.

A migrant worker who becomes pregnant faces an even more wrenching choice. The Interior Ministry will cancel her work visa when the baby is born and give her three months to leave the country. So she must decide whether to have an abortion, or have the baby and either face deportation or send the baby home. In fact, Israeli rights groups said that employers frequently fire pregnant migrant workers, contending they won't be able to do their job.

One domestic caregiver from China told Human Rights Watch that she sent her baby boy back to China shortly after he was born in 2009 in an attempt to retain her work visa.

"It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do," the 29 year old said. "But I thought it would be worth spending two years paying off my debt so that I could go home and have the financial means to care for him."

Then the Interior Ministry revoked her work visa because of her continued relationship with her husband, a Chinese construction worker in Israel legally. So far, she remains in Israel.

Israel can lawfully control whom it allows into the country to work and restrict their ability to claim permanent residency, but its abusive policies are far from necessary to that end. Instead of deporting workers who quit, Israel should ensure migrant worker rights to seek a remedy against abusive employers.

Instead of deporting migrant workers who quit, Israel should ensure they have access to a remedy against abusive employers. Instead of deporting women for having children or the children themselves, Israel should prohibit employers from the discriminatory practice of firing pregnant women. Instead of penalizing marriage and childbirth, Israel should respect the right to a family. If Israel wants to continue to benefit from the labor of migrant workers, it should ensure their fundamental rights.

Bill Van Esveld is a Middle East researcher for Human Rights Watch, based in Jerusalem. Allie Chen is a student at Harvard University who researched migrant workers as an intern for Human Rights Watch.

Rather a sad reaction by a religion ( or is it a Zionist nation state ?) that has suffered over the years yet has no compassion for others.

[geriatrickid]

---Please see article above, authored by Bill Van Esveld Middle East researcher for Human Rights Watch, based in Jerusalem. Allie Chen is a student at Harvard University who researched migrant workers as an intern for Human Rights Watch. .---

Rather a sad reaction by a religion ( or is it a Zionist nation state ?) that has suffered over the years yet has no compassion for others.

Your comment is inappropriate. Unfortunately, the same exploitation occurs in Thailand, in Sweden, in the UK etc. The inappropriate behaviour is wrong. When the Thais were ripped off at the Berry farm, does that mean that all Swedes are evil? When Mexican migrant labour experiences hardship in the USA, does it mean that all US Christians are to blame, or when migrant workers from the former east bloc countries are exploited in western EU nations that this is the fault of Christianity? No. It's just greedy humans. The fact of the matter is that Israelis disagree and have responded accordingly. Blaming a nation because of an economic issue is hardly intelligent. Using your logic then, Italy and Spain should be condemned because they refuse to have open borders and allow the inflow of North Africans.

I would not expect anything less from Human Rights Watch, which is allowed unfettered access in Israel. I'm sure we'd be hearing a lot worse from Israel's neighbours if Human Rights Watch was active in the arab world, but its not, since it ihas restricted access.

I do not doubt that some migrant workers have suffered. Unfortuntaely, HRW is now deemed to be a biased entity since its fund raising scandal broke last year. As you are aware, HRW specifically sought funding from Saudi arabia for its activities. The Saudis are hardly the most enlightened of people when it comes to human rights are they? The WSJ broke the story and The Atlantic followed up by giving an opportunity for HRW to address the issues. Here's the conclusion;

In other words, yes, the director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East division is attempting to raise funds from Saudis, including a member of the Shura Council (which oversees, on behalf of the Saudi monarchy, the imposition in the Kingdom of the strict Wahhabi interpretation of Islamic law) in part by highlighting her organization's investigations of Israel, and its war with Israel's "supporters," who are liars and deceivers. It appears as if Human Rights Watch, in the pursuit of dollars, has compromised its integrity.

You do a disservice to the migrants with legitimate grievances by regurgiating a report from a biased source. You might want to read the Israeli labour union positions. Those positions are far more supportive of the migrants and highlight cases of perceived injustice. The difference is that the labour unions and social service organizations stepped in to do battle with the government. All HRW did was kiss some Saudi ass to get more money.

Edited October 13, 2010 by geriatrickid

[siampolee]

With all due respect to all involved in the pro's and con's debate, see here below taken from a prominent Israeli newspaper the comments that the decent Israeli's are making

A Special Place in hel_l / Top 10 worst errors Israel is about to make,

Making major mistakes: what they are, why they matter, where they stand, and what you can do about it.

By Bradley BurstonTags: Israel news http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hel_l1. The Loyalty Oath.

What it is: A proposed amendment to Israel's Law of Citizenship, which, if approved by the Knesset, would require non-Jews seeking citizenship to pledge allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state." The bill does not require Jews to make the same declaration.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

Photo by: Emil SalmanWhy it matters: A watershed measure which has been widely condemned as formally racist, passage of the bill, a key demand of Avigdor Lieberman's Israel Beiteinu party, could also fuel Lieberman's drive to head the Israeli right, and eventually, run for the premiership.

Where it stands: Approved by the cabinet this week by a 22-8 vote, with all Labor ministers and three Likud MKs opposed. To become law, it must now pass three Knesset votes in the coming months.

What you can do: Add your voice to those working to defeat passage of the law. The law must have the support of the Likud [27 seats] and Labor [13] in order to pass. Write to Prime Minister and Likud ChairBenjamin Netanyahu and to Defense Minister and Labor Chair Ehud Barak to urge them to bar the bill from passage. The individual e-mail addresses of all Likud MKs may be found by clicking their names on the Knesset website. Senior Likud MKs Benny Begin, Dan Meridor and Michael Eitan, as well as Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin have already spoken out strongly against the Loyalty Oath. Others are believed to have serious reservations, and may be persuaded to abstain or work to keep the bill from reaching the Knesset floor.

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel has compiled an extensive and informative listing of pending legislation with potentially anti-democratic consequences, including bills which could strip citizenship from people having taken part in Gaza aid flotillas and penalties for commemorating Naqba Day, the Palestinian day of mourning for the events of 1948.

2. Deporting Children Who Want to be Israelis

What it is: Interior Minister Eli Yishai, chair of the ultra-Orthodox Shas, has dug in his political heels to demand that the government expel 400 children of foreign nationals working in Israel, who no longer have valid permits to stay. Many of the children were born in Israel. Most say they feel that Israel is their home, and that they want to remain and become citizens.

Why it matters: Yishai has cast the deportations as holding the line against the possibility of millions of workers flooding into Israel, posing threats of disease and demographic dilution of the Jewish character of the state. In practice, however, the deportations come in lieu of a coherent policy on refugees, asylum seekers, and foreign nationals. Beyond this, most of the children know no other home, and like their parents, have demonstrated strikingly good citizenship.

Where it stands: Yishai said this week that the deportations would begin in a few weeks, adding that he could have ordered another 10,000 to leave the country, but did not.

What you can do: Voice your concerns to Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar, who has led the effort for a cabinet reconsideration of the deportations. Also, support groups working to help vulnerable resident non-citizens, including Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Kav Laovedand Hotline for Migrant Workers.

3. Expanding settlement in East Jerusalem

What it is: Plans to further expel Palestinians in order to install Jews in homes in the flashpoint areas of Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah, and to create a large tourism area to promote the City of David settler tourism enterprise.

Why it matters: Any changes in Jerusalem, in particular operations in which the municipality and the police shield and foster settlement expansion can have devastating consequences.

Where it stands: City officials are watching closely, waiting for protests and U.S. scrutiny to die down, before ordering new expulsions into effect.

What you can do: Support the protests. Attend. Monitor events. Make your concerns known to members of congress, senators, the President.

4. Resuming Construction of the Jerusalem Museum of Tolerance

What it is: A mammoth, contentious project of the Simon Wiesenthal Center of Los Angeles, built on an ancient Muslim cemetery in the heart of the Holy City's downtown.

Why it matters: The location of the excavation work, the extravagance of the complex in a poverty-plagued city, and the insensitivity demonstrated by Wiesenthal Center chief Rabbi Marvin Hier have enraged Muslims and moderate Jews in the city and around the world.

Where it stands: The project has been faltering of late, following the resignation of renowned architect Frank Gehry. But SWC has declared its determination to go on, hastily hiring a new architectural team.

What you can do: Contact the Simon Wiesenthal Center and Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat to urge that the project be put to an end.

5. Perpetuating the siege on Gaza

See Israel's 10 worst errors of the decade.

6. Using attack dogs against protesters sailing on aid boats to Gaza

Enough said.

What you can do: See contact Defense Minister, above.

7. Barring entry and/or jailing and/or expelling additional Nobel Peace Prize winners, intellectuals, authors, and clowns.

8. Gratuitously and intentionally angering Turkish and other Mideastern neighbors.

9. Gratuitously and intentionally angering the U.S. and E.U., and giving them the impression that Israeli and Diaspora Jews prefer settlements to peace with the Palestinians.

What you can do: Get involved with Americans for Peace Now, J Street, the New Israel Fund, Tikkun, Ameinu, Meretz USA and any of the many other organizations working at the local, national, and international level on behalf of peace, democracy, and social justice in Israel.

10. Failing to indict Avigdor Lieberman for alleged money laundering.

What you can do: Pray.

[Jingthing]

Just a note, I am going to quit this thread but of course carry on amongst yourselves, don't mind me. I have said what I want to say, it's enough, and I don't have the stomach right now to play games with the overwhelmingly unbalanced anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli sentiment that I have observed on this board for years now. No, not the same kind of thing as being critical of specific Israeli policies which I am as well (as well as many Israelis, it being a democracy), it is an extreme and inflammatory bias with NO balance. When someone suggests that the Jews should have settled in Poland and Germany right after the world war 2, that is a clear clue that the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Enough!

Edited October 13, 2010 by Jingthing

[siampolee]

Come on Jingthing, answer that in your own words. Why should the citizens of Hawaii be allowed to decide their own fate, but the Falklanders be forced to accept Argentinian rule against their will?

Methinks Jingthing that you run with the fox and hunt with the hounds.

People forced from the land they lived in are to be regarded as second class citizens as no one must criticise Israel

Your dual standards earn you no merit.

You left because your argument is flawed and out comes the old anti Semite comment, remember that the Palestinians are regarded as Semites.

[Pakboong]

How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Nazis forced innocent people who had done nothing but be born the wrong religion into one area so that they could eventually be exterminated.

The Palestinians have waged war on Israel for more than 60 years and have brought most there poor conditions upon themselves by refusing to make peace and blowing up civilians. There is no correlation at all.

Isn't that the same as saying the Jews deserved the Holocaust because they resisted their horrible treatment. I can't imagine anyone holding the Jews responsible for the Ghetto uprising. They had no choice fight or die.

The number of Jews killed by rockets fired from Gaza is a surprisingly small number. To the best of my knowledge, the only person killed by a Palestinian rocket this year was Thai. That sounds like 60 years worth of war? I don't really think so. More people get killed in Washington DC bar fights each weekend.

[hobanse]

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

[Ulysses G.]

These and other questions will be addressed more fully as you go through this website. However, there is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, Yasser Arafat, is EGYPTIAN! In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!

http://www.masada2000.org/

History is a powerful thing.

[hobanse]

PLO chief: We will recognize Israel in return for 1967 borders

Yasser Abed Rabbo says that in exchange for accepting Palestinian territorial claims, it will recognize Israel as 'whatever it wants.'

Senior Palestine Liberation Organization official Yasser Abed Rabbo said on Wednesday that the Palestinians will be willing to recognize the State of Israel in any way that it desires, if the Americans would only present a map of the future Palestinian state that includes all of the territories captured in 1967, including East Jerusalem.

In response to U.S. State Department Spokesman Phillip Crowley's statement on Tuesday night that the Palestinians should respond to the Israeli demand, Abed Rabbo told Haaretz, "We want to receive a map of the State of Israel which Israel wants us to accept."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/plo-chief-we-will-recognize-israel-in-return-for-1967-borders-1.318835

[Ulysses G.]

How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Nazis forced innocent people who had done nothing but be born the wrong religion into one area so that they could eventually be exterminated.

The Palestinians have waged war on Israel for more than 60 years and have brought most there poor conditions upon themselves by refusing to make peace and blowing up civilians. There is no correlation at all.

Isn't that the same as saying the Jews deserved the Holocaust because they resisted their horrible treatment

The Arabs declared war on the Jews - not the other way around - so your premise is ridiculous.

In 1947, the British government withdrew from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.^[74] The newly created United Nations approved the Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, which sought to divide the country into two statesone Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international citya corpus separatumadministered by the UN.^[75] The Jewish community accepted the plan,^[76] but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it.^[77] On December 1, 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets.^[78] Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but they gradually moved onto the offensive.^[79] The Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.^[80]

On May 14, 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel.^[81] The following day, the armies of four Arab countriesEgypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraqattacked Israel, launching the 1948 ArabIsraeli War;^[

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel}

Edited October 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[geriatrickid]

How could anyone be comfortable with Gaza and be appalled by the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Nazis forced innocent people who had done nothing but be born the wrong religion into one area so that they could eventually be exterminated.

The Palestinians have waged war on Israel for more than 60 years and have brought most there poor conditions upon themselves by refusing to make peace and blowing up civilians. There is no correlation at all.

Isn't that the same as saying the Jews deserved the Holocaust because they resisted their horrible treatment. I can't imagine anyone holding the Jews responsible for the Ghetto uprising. They had no choice fight or die.

The number of Jews killed by rockets fired from Gaza is a surprisingly small number. To the best of my knowledge, the only person killed by a Palestinian rocket this year was Thai. That sounds like 60 years worth of war? I don't really think so. More people get killed in Washington DC bar fights each weekend.

Whoa Nellie. Gaza was rightfully Egyptian territory. It had no relationship to the Palestinians. Basically, most of the arab population in Gaza are settlers, occupiers of Egyptian land. Egypt didn't want these people and their associated problems and cast off the Gaza. A great deal of Gaza's problems are the result of the arabs themselves. Bear in mind that Egypt has a border with Gaza. Nothing stops Egypt from administering border entry points in accordance with the UN agreements. Instead, Egypt has all but sealed the border. Why is that? I do not think Israel is in a position to threaten Egypt on that issue.

The ongoing conflict between the PLA and Hamas is now driving politics. There is real hatred between some of the more secular members of the PLA and Hamas. Israel sends the tax revenues to the PLA not to Hamas. Excluding Norway and Sweden, all of the western aid money goes to the PLA and not Hamas. With the exception of Syria and Iran, the other middle eastern countries back the PLA and not Hamas. The hardship in Gaza is in large part intended for negotiating purposes. The locals are sacrificed to make martyrs and to elicit sympathy from gullible westerners. Hamas seeks to cause conflict by firing rockets and missiles at times on a daily basis as a means to provoke confrontation and to undermine the PLA authority and negotiations. Israel pulled out of all Gaza territory and yet the hostile activities continue to originate from Gaza. Why is that? All the Hamas authority need do is stop the rocket fire and the atempted infiltrations. As long as it continues, it makes Gaza a target. However, that's the intent, to continue to provoke hostilities to keep playing the blame game.

[Ulysses G.]

Whoa Nellie. Gaza was rightfully Egyptian territory. It had no relationship to the Palestinians.

Why confuse the issue with actual facts? It is so much easier to just blame the Jews.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Pakboong]

Whoa Nellie. Gaza was rightfully Egyptian territory. It had no relationship to the Palestinians.

Why confuse the issue with actual facts? It is so much easier to just blame the Jews.

I don't think people blame the Jews for trying to live peacefully. Jews do make it tough when they demand the moral high ground without regard to their actions. The Irgun, Haganah, were not different in motive and method from Hamas. A Jew would never concede that possibility and thereby renders his argument moot in the eyes of most.

The bombing of the King David Hotel by the Irgun in 1946 was a terrorist act and many were killed to include British citizens. How is what the Irgun in 1946 different from what the Hamas would do today? It is purely an academic matter, not an emotional one. When the only arguement available is everyone who doesn't agree with you is an anti-semite, you can not win many friends.

A recently published book written by a retired Mossad agent who claims Israeli complicity in the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 to gain sympathy for the Israelis against the Arabs is now out but unavailable. The Israelis are doing every thing they can to stop the release. The Israeli who wrote the book is in hiding. What are the Israelis worried about? The name of the book is "By Way of Deception". Should be an interesting read, even if it is not true. To insist that anyone wanting to read this book or believe its contents is an anti-semite is pretty silly but it will likely happen just that way.

[canuck1941]

Braking the silence.

Parliament member Daniel Cohn-Bendit, president of the European Greens-European Free Alliance and a leader of the 1968 student uprising in Paris, said Breaking the Silence was nominated because "the Greens/EFA group wants to recognize the bravery of all the individuals involved who work to shed light on the injustices of the Israeli occupation and ensure Israeli society does not simply turn a blind eye."

While "Israel is a democracy, it nonetheless takes enormous courage to speak out and break through the taboos and prejudices surrounding the Israeli occupation," he said.

http://www.haaretz.c...rticle_comments

The Israeli's don't treat their unwanted minorities like the Nazi's treated them? If it so offends you to consider that point of view, just hold your nose and examine the comparisons between modern Israel and Nazi Germany, not just actions of the state but of people in a community and I have no doubt the results of your honest sincere search will make you blink, maybe twice. And to think that some unimaginable supreme something chose them above all other races of mankind because they were the best people on earth, that little Semetic sub-tribe that wandered about, and "gave" them that land forever in reward. Doesn't it all sound like nonsense if you are willing to hold your nose for awhile?

[canuck1941]

Israel has a right wing government and that is a shame, but to compare them to Nazis and their mass death camps is OFFENSIVE.

Thats your opinion only, why not ask the Palestinians how offended they are.

You could also ask any of the surrounding countries how offended they are.

Not offensive to many liberal thinking people who are fed up being told what to think by the PC brigade, I find that more offensive.

Sorry, it was this post that I was replying too.

[canuck1941]

What I do find somewhat mystical and somewhat amusing or pitiful is the fact that our friend Jinthing suddenly coined and indeed used the word Nazi

Never at any time did I mention ''Nazi',

I merely expressed the opinion that sadly modern Israel seems to be following the same pattern of suppression as the presumed oppressors of the Jewish people have done over the years.

Methinks that Jinthing has indeed got the wrong end of the stick.

Did you get that folks -- PRESUMED OPPRESSORS. That says it all. What are you some kind of Holocaust Denier Lite? A kinder, gentler kind of anti-semite perhaps who always leaves a little fudge room for plausible deniability? Doesn't actually SAY Nazi but refers to oppressors which of course there were many but the Nazis are the first ones on most anyone's mind because of not so distant history. Doesn't actually say there weren't oppressors, but uses the word PRESUMED. How could anyone in their right mind who knows anything about the history of the Jews even suggest there may have not been oppressors? Sorry, I've got your number.

Now I understand your avatar.

[hobanse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCnHfITP70w

[Tigs]

Jingthing (I know yur reading you just can't resist it), Ulysees

I find your knowledge or interpretation of history once again staggering.

The nation now known as Israel was taken from the people that had lived there for centuries and given to someone else. If that were done to you and your family then you would fight and undertake War. The Israelis were given a generous amount of territory - only 60 years ago! Yet that was not enough, they took more once they had their feet under the table. They took more land from the annexed Palestinians. Jingthing, re your arguments that the Falklands should be returned to the Argentinians because they have been 'raped of the lands and resources', how does it sit with you that the Israelis continue to take more land.?

All food, water in fact everything that goes in to Gaza is strictly controlled. They are not permitted concrete with which to build or repair buildings, they build knew houses with Mud!, Mud houses Jingthing! The Israelis have built a wall to annex off the Palestinians that puts the Berlin Wall to shame.

Funny if I say Americans are bad, I get accused of yank bashing, if I say Israelis are bad, I am accused of anti-semitism. It's like I said to you before Jingthing, you always play the victim card and so do the Israeli's.

One day when you see what they are ultimately up to you and your like will say Oh My f*****g God!

[bangkockney]

Israel has a right wing government and that is a shame, but to compare them to Nazis and their mass death camps is OFFENSIVE.

Thats your opinion only, why not ask the Palestinians how offended they are.

You could also ask any of the surrounding countries how offended they are.

Not offensive to many liberal thinking people who are fed up being told what to think by the PC brigade, I find that more offensive.

You've got this all twisted. The PC stance is the one YOU are taking. Bashing Israel and comparing them to Nazis is so very fashionable. There is plenty to criticize about Israeli policies current and past, but they have never and will never be building any mass death camps and you bloody well know it.

Heavily restricting goods flowing into the Gaza strip renders it pretty close to a death camp.

Edited October 14, 2010 by bangkockney

[canuck1941]

I point to Islamic states to show that states founded on a particular religion are quite common in the world to rebut the notion that the desire of Jews to have their own and only Jewish state to be some kind of unreasonable deviation.

What makes a person Jewish is simply having a Jewish mother. There are other less common ways, but that is the gold standard.

Of course, to the Nazis your great grandfather only could have been Jewish and they would still gas you. So go figure.

Next ...

I thought we keep the nazis out of the debate?

So what makes a Jewish mother Jewish? It some kind of irrational religious thing, right? And its a colonialist settler movement based on some irrational religious beliefs and obscure fairy tale about was few thousand years ago.

Where are the parents and grandparents born of all the people there involved in the conflict?

It's not realistic to keep the Nazis out of the debate about why Israel exists and will continue to fight to exist, as Jewish state. Also, the more extreme anti-Israeli side has taken to calling Israelis the same as Nazis and such charges need to be discussed, as they are out on the table. They know it is a hot button for Jews to be called Nazis, so the Nazis are still part of the current debate.

A Jewish mother becomes Jewish by having a Jewish mother. It's not that complicated. It's ethnic identity passed through the matrilenial line, read some anthropology. Not an unusual thing among many other peoples in the world.

Do you ask such silly basic questions about OTHER people's in the world, such as the Kurds, Navajo Indians, Thai sea gypsies, etc.? Do you have a special hangup about Jews, perhaps being Russian? Don't be shy, it's a common thing.

"A Jewish mother becomes Jewish by having a Jewish mother. It's not that complicated. It's ethnic identity passed through the matrilenial line, read some anthropology. Not an unusual thing among many other peoples in the world."

Recently it was reported that the final arbiter of who is or is not a jew is in the hands of Israel's theocratic court, unelected, bearded fundamentalists, who, like their counterparts in Iran (The grand ayatollah) are unelected but nevertheless trump the will of the people, making a sham of democracy, but then, if you wanted power, why would you tolerate democracy? Religion always muddies the waters. It's just as bad in North America.

[Ulysses G.]

I find your knowledge or interpretation of history once again staggering.

The nation now known as Israel was taken from the people that had lived there for centuries and given to someone else.

The History of Israel in Brief

Actually, there was never a Palestine (other than the Jewish one) or a Palestinian people. There was mostly a big desert and there were always Jews there, as well as stateless Arabs.

The Jews - whose families had been there forever - legally bought land for Jewish settlers and worked it and made it fruitful, but the Arabs were jealous and wanted it back and tried to drive them off of it (and into the sea).

The Jews fought back and asked the UN for help. The UN approved two states to settle the problem, but when the Jews declared independence they were attacked by four huge Arab countries whose butt they kicked.

The Jews have won numerous wars and battles (and have taken a little land for their troubles), but some of the Arabs won't make peace and whine a lot when the Jews fight back or treat them shabbily for blowing up civilians and such - even though they seem to have absolutely no desire to settle things without violence .

Edited October 14, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Heavily restricting goods flowing into the Gaza strip renders it pretty close to a death camp.

It might be a good idea to stop shooting missles into Israel, so they do not need to restrict goods.

[Tigs]

Ulysees

Actually, there was never a Palestine (other than the Jewish one) or a Palestinian people. There was mostly a big desert and there were always Jews there, as well as stateless Arabs.

The Jews - whose families had been there forever - legally bought land for Jewish settlers and worked it and made it fruitful, but the Arabs were jealous and wanted it back and tried to drive them off of it (and into the sea).

The Jews fought back and asked the UN for help. The UN approved two states to settle the problem, but when the Jews declared independence they were attacked by four huge Arab countries whose butt they kicked.

When the next flight from planet Thargon leaves for Earth, jump on it and lets talk about the history of Palestine on Earth.

Palestine WAS a real country with REAL people. Prior to being Muslim, the Palastinians were Christian. They were under Ottoman Rule until the Brits were 'given' them after world war 1. There was no 'jew's asking for help' and being 'Driven in to the sea. Hundreds of thousands of jewish refugees came to the area between 1920 and 1930, they were welcome there was no problem. In 47/48 the UN (kicked off by the Brits), with two million people living in Palestine, 1/3 of them Jews, established two seperate states, one of Israel and one of Palastine. Two thirds of the Arabic population were forced in to neighboring countries and have been unable to return. It was not just desert it was populated and productive land.

You know I could go on but I have suddenly realised it is futile with folks like yourself and Jingthing.So I am just going to stop writing. I take neither side, but make it my responsibility to get to the bottom of things. I am sorry your education system lied to you in order to promote the agenda of governments, but the truth is out there scully! Believe no Government. Go find it for yourself.

The maps speak volumes. I'd sure be fighting the 'invaders' I tell you.