England'S Official 2012 Euro Discussion Thread

[smokie36]

Rij....try to punctuate better...I almost missed your exquisite insult.

I'm adding Mark Walters to that list as well...and hopfully another couple tomorrow!

[LucidLucifer]

Surely Carlton Palmer would be in our worst ever squad!

yes, he has to be the worst to play for england. a few run him close though - fashanu, michael ricketts, andy sinton.

Let's not forget this man......

[StevieH]

think i heard something like 7 of the past 11 goals sweden have conceded have been from headers/dead balls. so having lescott, terry and carroll to aim at might not be a bad plan really.

[Abrak]

Well noone is suggesting that Carroll is coming in for Welbeck. Young is being move wide for Ox and Carroll is playing up front with Welbeck. Hodgson could have gone with Defoe of course but hopefully Carroll will be more of a handful.

I see England is getting quite a bit of flack from the European press for our tactics. I cant feel we had much choice against the French. It will be interesting to see how things work out tonight. It would be great if we could find a way to top the Group as I do think we would stand a chance against either Italy or Croatia in the quarters.

[Bangkokhatter]

Surely Carlton Palmer would be in our worst ever squad!

yes, he has to be the worst to play for england. a few run him close though - fashanu, michael ricketts, andy sinton.

Let's not forget this man......

Thanks for that , you put me out of my misery, been thinking of his name all afternoon , i think most of the poor players mentioned played under Graham Taylor

[Bangkokhatter]

Can't understand the flak regarding the tactics, we have not exactly got many options. I still don't like the idea of Caroll up front, but will be more than happy if he shuts me up with a good performance. I think the Ox deserves another go and would like to see milner the player to miss out.

[rijit]

Rij....try to punctuate better...I almost missed your exquisite insult.

I'm adding Mark Walters to that list as well...and hopfully another couple tomorrow!

Best you have a look at you're own punctuation smokes 'rij' followed by three full stops and 'well' followed by 3 full stops and then, i presume what you're commenting on regarding my little scottish comment is ending the paragraph with an exclamation mark, well fuc me youve done exactly the same and then followed by a smiley.

Anyway, i never thought mark Walters was that bad a player,in fact it thought he had a couple of great seasons specially up at rangers.

[LucidLucifer]

Anyway, i never thought mark Walters was that bad a player,in fact it thought he had a couple of great seasons specially up at rangers.

Playing in Scottish football would make even the most average player look decent.....

Not the best argument you've ever put forward rijit.....

[rijit]

Anyway, i never thought mark Walters was that bad a player,in fact it thought he had a couple of great seasons specially up at rangers.

Playing in Scottish football would make even the most average player look decent.....

Not the best argument you've ever put forward rijit.....

True now, But then it was a different story they bought the best of what the English teams had and were a TOP European outfit, and more than a match for anything that the english league had to offer

Edited June 15, 2012 by rijit

[LucidLucifer]

Anyway, i never thought mark Walters was that bad a player,in fact it thought he had a couple of great seasons specially up at rangers.

Playing in Scottish football would make even the most average player look decent.....

Not the best argument you've ever put forward rijit.....

True now, But then it was a different story they bought the best of what the English teams had and were a TOP European outfit, and more than a match for anything that the english league had to offer

Yes, Rangers had huge financial muscle at that time, but the overall state of the Scottish league was still not high. It never has been. Their ability to attract top players was due to the wages they could pay, the guaranteed prospect of silverware, and probably most importantly, the European ban on English clubs. I don't think any player moved there with the thought they would be challenging themselves.

[smokie36]

I knew you were a fan of Scottish football rij. .thanks for confirming it!

Edited June 15, 2012 by smokie36

[rijit]

I knew you were a fan of Scottish football rij. .thanks for confirming it!

,

T

Yes, Rangers had huge financial muscle at that time, but the overall state of the Scottish league was still not high. It never has been. Their ability to attract top players was due to the wages they could pay, the guaranteed prospect of silverware, and probably most importantly, the European ban on English clubs. I don't think any player moved there with the thought they would be challenging themselves.

Wages is a over done argument and can be used in and against every football success story, man city utd even liverpool in the day, right bac to spurs in the 60's buyin greaves..As much as the cash Playing with top players will always attract other top players its CHALLENGING that and playing European football certainly was a challenge. They had some great teams and challenged the best in Europe had some great players Hateley was in my opinion after his Milan and Monaco stints was one of the best if not the best cf certainly in Europe if not the world, stephens, butcher,wilkins woods. the list goes on .

Edited June 15, 2012 by rijit

[nev]

You've never beaten them in a competitive game.

In case any of you had forgotten that statistic.....

And Wigan had not beaten Man United before and you know what happened, England are due a result against Sweeden and what better time to do it tonight.

[StevieH]

interesting read on the england - sweden match from everyone's favourite wirral-basd unemployed spaniard.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-rafael-benitez-column-steven-gerrard-can-recall-how-liverpool-blocked-out-zlatan-ibrahimovic-7851987.html

The Rafael Benitez Column: Steven Gerrard can recall how Liverpool blocked out Zlatan Ibrahimovic

England must create a screen in front of the Sweden danger man and starve him

England have a very clear obstacle tonight when they play Sweden in Kiev. Everyone will be talking about Zlatan Ibrahimovic and the impact he has already had in these championships for his country and before I go any further on the subject of England I must say that I think that there is a way of dealing with him.

It's seven years since our Liverpool team encountered Ibrahimovic in the quarter-final of the Champions League, on our way to the Istanbul final of 2005. He was the big threat in Fabio Capello's Juventus side who we met at that stage but our three-man defence in the Stadio delle Alpi shut him out for the goalless draw that sent us through, after a 2-1 win at Anfield.

Yes, Ibrahimovic is very dangerous in the air and he has a very fine touch, but he doesn't like physical contact too much. He's not the quickest player but when he receives the ball to his feet, he likes to keep it, controlling with his chest, perhaps, and bringing other players in. He likes to turn, pass, maybe win some fouls. You might say he's a little like Peter Crouch in some of these positive respects – a player who makes up in other ways what he might lack in pace.

The key is to create a screen in front of Ibrahimovic, to prevent him receiving the ball in those areas. Like so much else, that is a job for Steven Gerrard or Scott Parker in the Olympic Stadium at Kiev. They will frustrate him.

In Turin with Liverpool that night in April 2005, we had six men in midfield, with Xabi Alonso holding, so Juventus could not find Ibrahimovic with the ball. It was a 3-5-1-1 system we used and after they had tried and tried without success to locate him with precise passes, it meant they had to try to find his threat in the air. But Sami Hyypia, who was playing for me with Jamie Carragher and Djimi Traor in our defence, was better than Ibrahimovic in the air. There was one cross from Fabio Cannavaro that reached him but he put it over the bar. We were not expected to come away from Juventus with much that night but we were organised for Ibrahimovic, as England will need to be.

Of course, England will not want a 0-0 draw of their own in Kiev because that will bring a lot more pressure on an already tired team. The important thing for Roy Hodgson's side will be not to have their two banks of four defending so deep. They didn't take advantage of the high line of the French team in Donetsk on Monday. When you are so deep, you find that when regain the ball you have the other team on top of you. So, without doing too much the opposition can stop the counter-attacks. This means that you have to be very, very precise with the first two passes when you regain the ball, if you are to create the space which enables you to start working with the striker.

England were defending 4-4-2 and attacking 4-2-3-1 and to me that was right. But they couldn't create too much in counter-attack because they were too far back. John Terry would regain the ball but Karim Benzema or Samir Nasri would be on top of him so it would not be easy for him to play a simple pass. A lot depends on the energy of the wingers or the attacking players to break out fast from those deep positions. If you don't have the energy, it will be hard to get up the field.

Everyone had been talking about France before the game. But their system was flawed because they didn't run behind the defenders and get strikers into the box. Benzema and Nasri and Franck Ribry like to play little passes between each other – to copy the style of Spain, if you like. But again you have to be very precise to play in this way and in the end they were not a threat because they were not getting anyone into the box. Their difficulties were more about themselves than about England's central defenders. In the end, all they could do was shoot from distance.

How could it all work differently against Sweden? Well, Sweden have conceded quite a lot of goals from headers – seven in 11 games – which could tell us there is an opportunity here. Against France, England's two banks of four were sitting so deep that I don't think Andy Carroll would have been an option, even as a substitute. But a side who concede a lot of headed goals in this way might be one who are also defending too deep – allowing cross after cross, and therefore more goals.

If England, have possession, control the game, assume they are stronger than Sweden and attack them, they will be closer to the box, and it will then be important to have someone who can head the ball. With Carroll, you could be sure you have a chance with the first ball in, or the second ball. He could be a good option.

Anyway, Stevie will remember all about Zlatan and Juventus. He missed the Turin leg with an injury but he was very strong in our win at Anfield, driving the play. He is playing far deeper for Roy Hodgson and driving forward far less but I think that is correct. He is the England midfielder who can pass the ball and switch the play better than all the others. He can also be that shield to frustrate Zlatan, who definitely won't have forgotten him.

Hodgson needs tired players to be honest with him

There is a lot of talk about fatigue in the England team and it is certainly interesting to see the way Poland and Russia have been able to play. They seem to have greater intensity and tempo.

The conditions are cooler in Krakow, where England are based, than in Ukraine where they are playing. In 2007, before Liverpool went to Athens for the Champions League final against Milan, we trained at Murcia in south-east Spain. But you can't control the weather, of course.

In my experience, the difficult part is making sure players are being honest when they say they are OK to play. I remember when I was at Valencia, having four players who came back from international duty and said: "Yes, yes we're fine." In the first minute of the game I could see they could not run.

All these England players are fighting for places and want to play, so they commit everything to play. It is why Scott Parker didn't want to come off the field when the bench asked him to do so the other night in Donetsk.

As a manager, however tempted you might be to play one of your best players just because he says he's fit, you have to be honest with yourself. If a winger or a striker, with the bursts of pace they need, is just slightly off his game you will see it the minute he starts the game. Then it will be too late.

[rijit]

yeah, an interesting read , funny little stat i heard today, so far theirs been twice the amount of headed goals at this tournament, than there was at the whole of the last euro's

[StevieH]

yeah, an interesting read , funny little stat i heard today, so far theirs been twice the amount of headed goals at this tournament, than there was at the whole of the last euro's

yeah, it's interesting. speaks to packed defences not allowing many direct chances on goal. not seen the stats but i imagine only really spain and germany have created a lot of one on one opportunities so far.

this is pretty funny from the swedish press. tempting fate a bit?

[mommysboy]

yeah, an interesting read , funny little stat i heard today, so far theirs been twice the amount of headed goals at this tournament, than there was at the whole of the last euro's

yeah, it's interesting. speaks to packed defences not allowing many direct chances on goal. not seen the stats but i imagine only really spain and germany have created a lot of one on one opportunities so far.

this is pretty funny from the swedish press. tempting fate a bit?

Yes well spotted. Now the thing is if England rags had done this we would be accused of absolute arrogance. As it is someone else, it's just having a laugh!

[LucidLucifer]

They had some great teams and challenged the best in Europe had some great players Hateley was in my opinion after his Milan and Monaco stints was one of the best if not the best cf certainly in Europe if not the world, stephens, butcher,wilkins woods. the list goes on .

This is I know, but you're actually making my point for me. Yes, Rangers did have a very good team then, but playing week in week out against vastly inferior opposition would make any player look good, Walters included. So a couple of good seasons in Scotland does not make him a good player.

And below is Rangers European record during the Walters years. Hardly inspiring reading, your claim that they mixed it with the best is a little over egged shall we say.

1986–87 UEFA Cup First Round Ilves Tampere 4 – 0, 0 – 2 Second Round Boavista 2 – 1, 1 – 0 Third Round Borussia Mönchengladbach 1 – 1, 0 – 0^[7] 1987–88 European Cup First Round Dynamo Kiev 0 – 1, 2 – 0 Second Round Górnik Zabrze 3 – 1, 1 – 1 Quarter-Final Steaua Bucharest 0 – 2, 2 – 1 1988–89 UEFA Cup First Round GKS Katowice 1 – 0, 4 – 2 Second Round 1. FC Köln 0 – 2, 1 – 1 1989–90 European Cup First Round Bayern Munich 1 – 3, 0 – 0 1990–91 European Cup First Round Valletta

4 – 0, 6 – 0

[mommysboy]

What spooks me is the constant reports of fatigue in the England team. This being the case it would make sens to use second string players wherever possible. The thought of losing parker doesn't fill me with joy, but if he isn't fit then no point playing him, or perhaps risk starting without bhim and bring him on as a sub later in the game. Likewise, if trojan Gerrard should tire we should not hesitate to bring on Jones who could be an able deputy.

But what has caused such fatigue, was it the draining style of play against the French? or have we nobbled ourselves again with our demanding premier season and failure to treat acclimatisation seriously?

[rijit]

They had some great teams and challenged the best in Europe had some great players Hateley was in my opinion after his Milan and Monaco stints was one of the best if not the best cf certainly in Europe if not the world, stephens, butcher,wilkins woods. the list goes on .

This is I know, but you're actually making my point for me. Yes, Rangers did have a very good team then, but playing week in week out against vastly inferior opposition would make any player look good, Walters included. So a couple of good seasons in Scotland does not make him a good player.

And below is Rangers European record during the Walters years. Hardly inspiring reading, your claim that they mixed it with the best is a little over egged shall we say.

1986–87 UEFA Cup First Round Ilves Tampere 4 – 0, 0 – 2 Second Round Boavista 2 – 1, 1 – 0 Third Round Borussia Mönchengladbach 1 – 1, 0 – 0^[7] 1987–88 European Cup First Round Dynamo Kiev 0 – 1, 2 – 0 Second Round Górnik Zabrze 3 – 1, 1 – 1 Quarter-Final Steaua Bucharest 0 – 2, 2 – 1 1988–89 UEFA Cup First Round GKS Katowice 1 – 0, 4 – 2 Second Round 1. FC Köln 0 – 2, 1 – 1 1989–90 European Cup First Round Bayern Munich 1 – 3, 0 – 0 1990–91 European Cup First Round Valletta

4 – 0, 6 – 0

yeah, I get your point, a 15 year career 300 games in the English top flight, an England cap and a hundred or so games for arguably the top team in britain, makes him a crap player, A point well made Lucifer? i think not.

[rijit]

yeah, an interesting read , funny little stat i heard today, so far theirs been twice the amount of headed goals at this tournament, than there was at the whole of the last euro's

yeah, it's interesting. speaks to packed defences not allowing many direct chances on goal.

Yeah i was thinking the same and was gonna add I blame Chelsea, that's probably stronging it ... a bit.

[smokie36]

Goals and excitement chaps...that's all I ask tonight....

[StevieH]

storm clouds gathering over kiev apparently. this might not go ahead you know.

[LucidLucifer]

yeah, I get your point, a 15 year career 300 games in the English top flight, an England cap and a hundred or so games for arguably the top team in britain, makes him a crap player, A point well made Lucifer? i think not.

Please reply and quote where I stated he was crap. They are your words not mine.

I was making the point that any 'average player' (my words, note the absence of the word 'crap') would be made to look decent playing in an inferior league. I stand by that statement.

Are you willing to stand by your statement that Rangers 'challenged the best in Europe?' I doubt it, because I showed you they didn't, sorry if you didn't like it, but if you're going to make a claim, at least check the veracity of it.

As for your wonderful (woeful is probably more apt) stats about Walters, well, Carlton Palmer had 300 top flight games and 18 England caps; now argue the toss about how great he was too....

[MrRed]

So it looks like we are going in 4-4-2

Hart

Johnson

Cole

Turdy

Lescott

Milner

Gerrard

Parker

Young

Wellbeck

Carroll

I hope the full backs get forward and provide the width we need with Milner and Young if so we will do will if Wellbeck and Carroll are at it?

Good to know we have two pacey wingers to bring on if needed in the second half.

Keep Ibrahimovic quiet and we will beat them.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MrRed

[MB1]

So it looks like we are going in 4-4-2

Hart

Johnson

Cole

Turdy

Lescott

Milner

Gerrard

Parker

Young

Wellbeck

Carroll

I hope the full backs get forward and provide the width we need with Milner and Young if so we will do will if Wellbeck and Carroll are at it?

Good to know we have two pacey wingers to bring on if needed in the second half.

Keep Ibrahimovic quiet and we will beat them.

Well it's 1--0 to England at half time.Come on Emgland

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[mommysboy]

Harking back to previous encounters, we've gone one up and then we go flat, which is what I see unfolding here if we are not careful. far too many unforced errors. England need to get a grip early in the second half or I can see an equaliser and one of those terrible limps to the line to secure a draw. Shame because we look a fluent side at times. It was important to subdue Ibramhovic, but he's well in to the game now. Fingers crossed.

[MB1]

Harking back to previous encounters, we've gone one up and then we go flat, which is what I see unfolding here if we are not careful. far too many unforced errors. England need to get a grip early in the second half or I can see an equaliser and one of those terrible limps to the line to secure a draw. Shame because we look a fluent side at times. It was important to subdue Ibramhovic, but he's well in to the game now. Fingers crossed.

Well crossed. 1-1 already....

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[MB1]

I don't believe it England have caved in, 2-1 to Sweden. Better get playing now or we are doomed.

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[MB1]

what a goal by Wallcott 2- 2.come on England.Game on.

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Edited June 15, 2012 by MB1