I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

Apostasy and atheism are not directly comparable.

Apostasy means rejecting a religion which you once followed. So those who used to be Christian are indeed apostates. They may also be atheists.

Most apostates are probably agnostics, i.e. they don't know whether religion of any type is true or not.

Got you.....so basically if you have followed a religion then renounced it, you are an apostate.

If you have never followed any religion and have no religious beliefs you're an atheist.

......and agnostics just kind of sit in the middle twirling their thumbs not knowing if they're coming or going.

Sounds about right.

More on the IMPORTANT distinction between race and ethnicity:

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htm

Would you describe yourself as being an apostate, an atheist, or agnostic JT?

More on the IMPORTANT distinction between race and ethnicity:

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htm

Would you describe yourself as being an apostate, an atheist, or agnostic JT?

If pressed, I would called myself an atheistic cultural and ethnic Ashkenazi Jew. My parents weren't religious either, just less "out" about it. Both my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were Jewish people, ethnically Ashkenazim. Beyond that there probably were some rapes by Cossacks and Mongolians, but whatever. There is no way I'm not a Jew. Yes many religious Jews would say I'm not a Jew, but that's their problem. It's like you're demanding simple answers in a complex world.

BTW, I just looked this up on Wiki: Ashkenazim comprise about 80 percent of today's Jews but in the 11th century, only 3 percent.

Seems to me this thread was never intended to be about atheism

I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

Apostasy and atheism are not directly comparable.

Apostasy means rejecting a religion which you once followed. So those who used to be Christian are indeed apostates. They may also be atheists.

Most apostates are probably agnostics, i.e. they don't know whether religion of any type is true or not.

Got you.....so basically if you have followed a religion then renounced it, you are an apostate.

If you have never followed any religion and have no religious beliefs you're an atheist.

......and agnostics just kind of sit in the middle twirling their thumbs not knowing if they're coming or going.

Sounds about right.

Not quite! An atheist may or not have had a religion previously, but has come to a definite conclusion that there is no God.

Thanks, JT.... but you haven't answered my question.

I think I have.

Also with due respect, I ain't a "Jew in a box" who answers all questions how you would like on demand.

However, this service IS available in BERLIN:

Actually this video is very good. One of the Jews in a Box addresses some of the issues being discussed here.

I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, JT, just to find out what the situation is. Sorry, can't watch videos on my slow connection.

More on the IMPORTANT distinction between race and ethnicity:

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htm

Would you describe yourself as being an apostate, an atheist, or agnostic JT?

If pressed, I would called myself an atheistic cultural and ethnic Ashkenazi Jew. My parents weren't religious either, just less "out" about it. Both my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were Jewish people, ethnically Ashkenazim. Beyond that there probably were some rapes by Cossacks and Mongolians, but whatever. There is no way I'm not a Jew. Yes many religious Jews would say I'm not a Jew, but that's their problem. It's like you're demanding simple answers in a complex world.

BTW, I just looked this up on Wiki: Ashkenazim comprise about 80 percent of today's Jews but in the 11th century, only 3 percent.

A lot of reading on that Wiki page, that stat about 3% - 92% is fascinating.

A lot of reading on that Wiki page, that stat about 3% - 92% is fascinating.

I agree. I hadn't realized. It did take rather a long time though.

Someone who renounces their religion is known as an apostate, which can be a little more serious than being referred to as an atheist. I take your point though and also wonder why a child is automatically given the same religion as the parents decide, without them ever making an informed choice - It does not follow for supporting football teams after all.

You rarely get the choice of the first football game that you go to, though I believe a lot of people convert later in life.

Could you follow the principles of Mohammadism without believing in a Higher Power?

Similarly with Christianity? Or if you want to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbour, do you have to go for the whole literality?

SC

Someone who renounces their religion is known as an apostate, which can be a little more serious than being referred to as an atheist. I take your point though and also wonder why a child is automatically given the same religion as the parents decide, without them ever making an informed choice - It does not follow for supporting football teams after all.

You rarely get the choice of the first football game that you go to, though I believe a lot of people convert later in life.

Could you follow the principles of Mohammadism without believing in a Higher Power?

Similarly with Christianity? Or if you want to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbour, do you have to go for the whole literality?

SC

Indeed my youngest brother became apostate to his home club Leeds in opting to support Manchester United, rest assured he was converted back with threats and intimidation.

Apostasy is an act undertaken by an individual on switching from one belief to another, or to a state of non-belief.

Thus my Scottish friend is an agnostic as he believes in a higher being but without any branding involved.

Apostates do not tend to retain the title due to its pejorative connotations.

To UG's point ethnicity in today's transient society is increasingly self identified. Race is harder to recreate but ethnicity is far more fluid and underscores how societies are changing on an increasingly rapid and far- reaching basis.

I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

Apostasy and atheism are not directly comparable.

Apostasy means rejecting a religion which you once followed. So those who used to be Christian are indeed apostates. They may also be atheists.

Most apostates are probably agnostics, i.e. they don't know whether religion of any type is true or not.

Got you.....so basically if you have followed a religion then renounced it, you are an apostate.

If you have never followed any religion and have no religious beliefs you're an atheist.

......and agnostics just kind of sit in the middle twirling their thumbs not knowing if they're coming or going.

Sounds about right.

I'd like to hedge my bets just in case. What am I called?

Someone who renounces their religion is known as an apostate, which can be a little more serious than being referred to as an atheist. I take your point though and also wonder why a child is automatically given the same religion as the parents decide, without them ever making an informed choice - It does not follow for supporting football teams after all.

You rarely get the choice of the first football game that you go to, though I believe a lot of people convert later in life.

Could you follow the principles of Mohammadism without believing in a Higher Power?

Similarly with Christianity? Or if you want to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbour, do you have to go for the whole literality?

SC

Indeed my youngest brother became apostate to his home club Leeds in opting to support Manchester United, rest assured he was converted back with threats and intimidation.

This must have been pre-Thatcherism....

Can someone define "Higher Power" for me please?

I'm having difficulty understanding the term across all the religious groups in particular.

I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

Apostasy and atheism are not directly comparable.

Apostasy means rejecting a religion which you once followed. So those who used to be Christian are indeed apostates. They may also be atheists.

Most apostates are probably agnostics, i.e. they don't know whether religion of any type is true or not.

Got you.....so basically if you have followed a religion then renounced it, you are an apostate.

If you have never followed any religion and have no religious beliefs you're an atheist.

......and agnostics just kind of sit in the middle twirling their thumbs not knowing if they're coming or going.

Sounds about right.

I'd like to hedge my bets just in case. What am I called?

Nervous....

Can someone define "Higher Power" for me please? .

Something more powerful than your wife.....

I'd like to hedge my bets just in case. What am I called?

Afraid of death.

Haha some good responses.

JT....I think that makes me normal then no?

Is there such a thing folium?.....I hope not!!

Apostasy is an act undertaken by an individual on switching from one belief to another, or to a state of non-belief.

Thus my Scottish friend is an agnostic as he believes in a higher being but without any branding involved.

Apostates do not tend to retain the title due to its pejorative connotations.

To UG's point ethnicity in today's transient society is increasingly self identified. Race is harder to recreate but ethnicity is far more fluid and underscores how societies are changing on an increasingly rapid and far- reaching basis.

Lacking the requisite faith or factual data, agnostics do not believe in a higher being, nor do they disbelieve.

I think one can get into trouble needing to find a label for everything. Take me for example. Baptized, educated, confirmed Catholic, thereby Christian. While being a great admirer of Christ and while also admiring others that are devoted to him and live by his example, I am by definition an apostate because I doubt very much he is risen to ascend into heaven to sit at the right of his father, and that is contrary to the teachings of the church. Actually a pretty small detail for me, but huge for believers .

Apostasy is an act undertaken by an individual on switching from one belief to another, or to a state of non-belief.

Thus my Scottish friend is an agnostic as he believes in a higher being but without any branding involved.

Apostates do not tend to retain the title due to its pejorative connotations.

To UG's point ethnicity in today's transient society is increasingly self identified. Race is harder to recreate but ethnicity is far more fluid and underscores how societies are changing on an increasingly rapid and far- reaching basis.

Lacking the requisite faith or factual data, agnostics do not believe in a higher being, nor do they disbelieve.

I think one can get into trouble needing to find a label for everything. Take me for example. Baptized, educated, confirmed Catholic, thereby Christian. While being a great admirer of Christ and while also admiring others that are devoted to him and live by his example, I am by definition an apostate because I doubt very much he is risen to ascend into heaven to sit at the right of his father, and that is contrary to the teachings of the church. Actually a pretty small detail for me, but huge for believers .

You believe his father exists?

Apostasy is an act undertaken by an individual on switching from one belief to another, or to a state of non-belief.

Thus my Scottish friend is an agnostic as he believes in a higher being but without any branding involved.

Apostates do not tend to retain the title due to its pejorative connotations.

To UG's point ethnicity in today's transient society is increasingly self identified. Race is harder to recreate but ethnicity is far more fluid and underscores how societies are changing on an increasingly rapid and far- reaching basis.

Lacking the requisite faith or factual data, agnostics do not believe in a higher being, nor do they disbelieve.

I think one can get into trouble needing to find a label for everything. Take me for example. Baptized, educated, confirmed Catholic, thereby Christian. While being a great admirer of Christ and while also admiring others that are devoted to him and live by his example, I am by definition an apostate because I doubt very much he is risen to ascend into heaven to sit at the right of his father, and that is contrary to the teachings of the church. Actually a pretty small detail for me, but huge for believers .

You believe his father exists?

No I don't, nor do I disbelieve, but as i say that's a pretty small detail for me. I do like that some people seek to emulate and show devotion for, what they see as an exemplary life lived however.

edit to add: Not just Christians either. If people of other faiths find in their faith reasons to live purposeful lives of humility and respect for others then I say that's all to the benefit of everyone.

Thanks for your response lannarebirth.

It leaves us no further forward on the question however of apostatism....I was raised a Christian....halfway Catholic and half simply Christian.

I have no belief....maybe I did for a while as a young kid. Does that make me agnostic...athiest or apostate?

Thanks for your response lannarebirth.

It leaves us no further forward on the question however of apostatism....I was raised a Christian....halfway Catholic and half simply Christian.

I have no belief....maybe I did for a while as a young kid. Does that make me agnostic...athiest or apostate?

Indifferent?

Apostic and atheistic I think Smokie?

See.....I told you I was confused.

Thanks for your response lannarebirth.

It leaves us no further forward on the question however of apostatism....I was raised a Christian....halfway Catholic and half simply Christian.

I have no belief....maybe I did for a while as a young kid. Does that make me agnostic...athiest or apostate?

Indifferent?

Athiest surely smokie?

IMO, If you never had belief you cant switch. Being raised Christian does not mean you hold the belief yourself.

I know that I have never believed in a God, from any age.

"Self identifying ethnicity" is the clue. How can a bunch of different races form one ethnic group except in their own mind?

I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

I agree with the above.

If I marry a Buddhist Karen woman, am i then an ethnic Karen because of my association?

Thanks for your response lannarebirth.

It leaves us no further forward on the question however of apostatism....I was raised a Christian....halfway Catholic and half simply Christian.

I have no belief....maybe I did for a while as a young kid. Does that make me agnostic...athiest or apostate?

Having no belief is agnostic. Believing that there is no God is atheist. The first is a passive condition; the second means that you have definite ideas on the subject.

If I marry a Buddhist Karen woman, am i then an ethnic Karen because of my association?

Or an ethnic Buddhist?

"Self identifying ethnicity" is the clue. How can a bunch of different races form one ethnic group except in their own mind?

>I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate.

I agree with the above.

If I marry a Buddhist Karen woman, am i then an ethnic Karen because of my association?

See, that's a valid point, you would end up defining ethnicity as a state of mind rather than genealogy. I think that demands a new thread......

"Self identifying ethnicity" is the clue. How can a bunch of different races form one ethnic group except in their own mind?

>

>

>I'm with U.G. on this one.......I can't see how you can self identify as an ethnic group.

Steely Dan makes an interesting point re being an apostate, which can have fatal consequences in some regressive parts of the World, and in regressive minds elsewhere

I would say being an apostate trumps being an atheist in the way I described in the OP, would the correct descriptor be, being an apostate with atheistic beliefs? Or is that a nonsense?.

Should we be correcting people who say they used to be christian etc but now they are atheist? I bet most down know they are apostate. >

>

I agree with the above.

If I marry a Buddhist Karen woman, am i then an ethnic Karen because of my association?

See, that's a valid point, you would end up defining ethnicity as a state of mind rather than genealogy. I think that demands a new thread......

That's the whole point of modern ethnicity. It is having to undergo a major rethink as globalisation mixes people up to a degree never seen before.

The Karen woman marries a Brit. Are their children ethnically British or Karen?

Obama, is he ethnically Kenyan Luo, Kansas of English descent or just "American"?

Is Mo Farrah now British rather than Somali ethnically, as he has self-selected a switch of residence. How about his children?