I see the ignorant are at it again.

They seem to think that those who support the right of anyone to worship as they wish must also support barbaric customs such as FGM.

They seem to think that the barbaric custom of FGM is a prerequisite of Islam and that all Muslims either practice it or at the very least condone it.

They hold this belief despite numerous posts showing that this barbarity pre dates Islam and is practised by those of other religions as well (although, due to the geographical areas where it is practised, most who do so are Muslim).

They continue to hold this belief despite the many links to numerous Islamic leaders and scholars showing that this barbarity is abhorrent to Islam and condemning it.

When these links appear, they have no argument against them. Instead they leave the subject of FGM for a while before later returning to it in the vain hope that people will have forgotten that previously they were metaphorically shot down in flames.

FGM is a horrific, barbaric crime against young girls and women.

There is nothing in Islam which condones it.

Whilst the areas where it is practiced, or where those who practice it originate from, are mainly Muslim; non Muslims who live in or originate from those areas practice it also.

It is unacceptable that despite FGM being a crime in the UK for many years, it is only now that police referrals and prosecutions have started. However, if the victims don't make a complaint; if no one is prepared to give evidence; then there is little the police or other authorities can do.

Fortunately, this is changing; and this is due mainly to the initiatives of Muslim women's groups; not to ignorant Islamaphobes ranting on internet forums..

If you are in the UK and worried that a child may be at risk of FGM, you can contact:
- The NSPCC 24-hour helpline anonymously on 0800 028 3550
- Email: [email protected]

Just a wild stab in the dark here;- Perhaps FGM has cropped up again because it's current news. What did I post earlier about the dam breaking?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26681364

Indeed Londonistan hospitals have treated 4000 cases since 2009, at least we look like we have one prosecution pending.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-26653884

Yes, it is current news; so maybe your reason for it cropping up again is correct.

Do you now accept that FGM is as abhorrent to most Muslims as it is to you and I?

Do you now accept that Muslim leaders and scholars condemn it?

Do you now accept that it is a cultural practice, not a religious one?

You are wrong Simple1, there are not 'many' interpretations of the Koran, the koran is the word of god and therefore Muslims cannot interpret it, change it or decide what they will and will not obey, Islam does mean submission after all. The fact that there are millions of Muslims who ignore the ravings in the koran neither makes them good Muslims or Islam any less a violent creed. The hadith are not interpretations of the koran. There were many Nazis that ignored the more extreme commands and beliefs of Hitler, did that somehow make Nazism any less evil and harmless?

On the subject of FGM, Islam IS the culture that breeds it (UK) and along with child brides, forced marriages, creeping Sharia and sex grooming gangs, in the UK you will not find offended Muslims being outspoken against these crimes. If they were there would have been many prosecutions for FGM since 1985 as it's estimated 66.000 girls have been mutilated since then- and all those moderates never said a thing!. The whole 'moderate muslim' argument is a lie anyway as they are instructed by the koran to be friendly and moderate when they are in a minority in a community, -Thakiya, an example of the duplicity and lies of the phrophet.

The tolerance of UK's moderate Muslims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDB4LdoOiXo

Yes, it is current news; so maybe your reason for it cropping up again is correct.

Do you now accept that FGM is as abhorrent to most Muslims as it is to you and I?

Do you now accept that Muslim leaders and scholars condemn it?

Do you now accept that it is a cultural practice, not a religious one?

I take it your first question applies to Muslims in the UK, not Egypt, Sudan or Somalia where the incidence is 78-97, 91 and 98% respectively

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country

I would suspect most Muslims who consider themselves British and identify with British culture do find FGM abhorrent, but this does not seem to be the case elsewhere. Furthermore from the same link 82% of Malay women surveyed cite religious obligation as the main reason for the practice, compared to 32% who thought it cultural in motivation.

Second question, back to the cookbook again.

The reference is to the circumcision of girls. It was practiced in Arabia when Islam came. It is disputed amongst the jurists. Some Shafi'i scholars hold that circumcision of girls is obligatory, but others think that it is recommended. Ata, Ahmad b. Hanbal, and some Maliki jurists also hold that it is obligatory. Abu Hanifah maintains that it is recommended and not obligatory. Malik also holds that it is recommended. According to Ahmad, circumcision of women is recommended but it is obligatory in men.

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/search/label/Female%20Circumcision

When you wrote 'condemned' did you by any chance mean commended. Of course as the link goes on to say, 'if you don't like the conclusion you can always dispute the Hadith, which is Fathul Bari vol. 16 p. 353

Third, do I accept FGM is a cultural practice? Well setting aside Malaysia for a minute I'm prepared to believe FGM was a cultural practice that pre-dated Islam. You did observe that it just so happens that Countries where FGM and honour killing are prevalent just so happen to be Islamic nations, I guess you might argue coincidence. I would observe that if one of the major aims of religion is to provide spiritual and moral guidance then Islamic leaders have not done as good a job of stopping these cultural aberrations as they have in stopping consumption of either pork or alcohol. I guess their priorities must be slightly different to western ones.

Finally returning to the UK, I wonder whether you think the attitude of first generation immigrants from places with high rates of FGM miraculously change at passport control?

...

Finally returning to the UK, I wonder whether you think the attitude of first generation immigrants from places with high rates of FGM miraculously change at passport control?

It should do. In fact it should be emphasised before entering the country.

There should be classes given by British Consulates in countries of origin (i.e. British Council lessons) before immigrants catch their flights / ships or other means of travel. These classes should enlighten the potential immigrants in the British tolerance of incoming people, but the absolute repugnance of civilised people to certain practices that may be the custom in such countries of origin. This may then also start to change the customs of such countries.

Regrettably we cannot instruct our fellow Europeans in similar matters, they come in willy-nilly. This may change if a referendum is allowed in the next few years.

Steely Dan,

You have obviously not read, or far more likely chosen to ignore, the many earlier links to prominent Muslim scholars both in the UK and elsewhere CONDEMNING the practice of FGM and the other crimes you mention.

Both Christians and Jews from some regions of Africa practice FGM and, as do some Muslims, mistakenly see it as a religious obligation.

But there is nothing in the teachings of any of these three religions to indicate this; indeed, as previously quoted, the opposite!

Unfortunately, though, you will always find a minority of writers from each of the Abrahamic religions who condone, or even recommend, this practice. Equally unfortunately there will always be ignorant people who think these writers represent the mainstream view.

You must also condemn Christian and Jewish leaders for not stamping it out the same as you do Muslim ones; otherwise you show yourself to be a hypocrite.

Of course I don't expect people's beliefs and attitudes to change the moment they enter the UK; what a stupid remark for you to make.

Education is the key, and in the UK that education comes mainly from Muslim leaders.

You are wrong Simple1, there are not 'many' interpretations of the Koran

<deleted>; there are as many interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible and Torah!

Otherwise none of these three religions would have different sects who have over the centuries gone to war with, murdered and tortured those whose interpretation of their particular holy book is different to their own!

Steely Dan,

Education is the key, and in the UK that education comes mainly from Muslim leaders.

God help the kids then, and the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716844/Islamic-law-is-adopted-by-British-legal-chiefs.html

Islamic law is to be effectively enshrined in the British legal system for the first time under guidelines for solicitors on drawing up “Sharia compliant” wills.

Under ground-breaking guidance, produced by The Law Society, High Street solicitors will be able to write Islamic wills that deny women an equal share of inheritances and exclude unbelievers altogether.

Such is the PC concern for these immigrants that the old-fashioned concern for women's rights is being ignored by those who shape our laws - and thus how our society operates.

I could go out now and write a will which left everything to male relatives or friends; thus excluding women.

I could also only include people who share my own beliefs, etc., etc.

I have been able to do so ever since wills came into being.

Nothing new here.

Old fashioned concern for women's rights? You only have to go back 100 years to reach an era when women in the UK had very few, if any, rights at all! New fashioned concern for women's rights would be more accurate.

Steely Dan,

Education is the key, and in the UK that education comes mainly from Muslim leaders.

God help the kids then, and the UK

Why?

Do you disapprove of education in general; or just educating people that FGM is wrong?

Muslims Schools in the UK have been caught teaching kids that Jews and Christians are pigs, but to be fair that is more or less what the koran tells them. Koran says Muslims are the best of people while the Jews and Christians are the worst of people who will go to hell fire, if you call that education then I don't. I can give you the suras if you want.

You are wrong Simple1, there are not 'many' interpretations of the Koran

<deleted>; there are as many interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible and Torah!

Otherwise none of these three religions would have different sects who have over the centuries gone to war with, murdered and tortured those whose interpretation of their particular holy book is different to their own!

Yet you provide nothing in the slightest to back up the assertion that there are as many interpretations of the Qur'an. A Christian sect is a denomination of which there are many 1000s.. 6000 I recall.

Aside from a very small number of crackpot groups akin to the Westborough Baptist Church to some degree but not as far as the WBC as they are not considered part of Islam, there is the Ahmadiyya. This is a relatively new group being less that 150 years old. They would be akin to the Mormon's in that it introduced an additional prophet (Mirza Ahmed). That leaves you with Shi'a and Sunni though at a stretch you could add Sufism as being a sect but good luck with that. Sufism is nothing more that an approach to Islam which is mystical in nature so to call it a sect would mean that a devout believer would be a sect as would be a very devout believer and a very very devout believer etc. etc. You end up at the point which I actually agree with in that every single person who has EVER believed in ANY religion has to be considered a sect.

I don't generally bring up arguments such as this on the TV forum because few people have the religious knowledge to even contemplate it. I do not mean that in a nasty way at all but that it is a very specialist subject.

Unfortunately, though, you will always find a minority of writers from each of the Abrahamic religions who condone, or even recommend, this practice. Equally unfortunately there will always be ignorant people who think these writers represent the mainstream view.

You must also condemn Christian and Jewish leaders for not stamping it out the same as you do Muslim ones; otherwise you show yourself to be a hypocrite.

Of course I don't expect people's beliefs and attitudes to change the moment they enter the UK; what a stupid remark for you to make.

Education is the key, and in the UK that education comes mainly from Muslim leaders.

I think an incidence of around 90% is pretty mainstream. Glad you agree that attitudes don't change at passport control and education is the key. A lot of education will be needed considering the number of immigrants arriving from outside the EU each year, what could possibly go wrong, except for Saudi funding of madrassas that is.

http://vimeo.com/85362804

Tens of thousands of people and nobody complained. Well, I say that but perhaps people did complain but nothing was done so someone brought up the issue with C4. The above documentary is the second and came about due to the firestorm caused by the first 'episode'. I remember that well... Threatened litigation from all manner of places against C4. Huge enquiry with the police involved found that C4 had done nothing wrong while producing an accurate report.

On the question of nothing being done about complaints no doubt due to PC multicultural dimwits.

Government intervenes at school 'taken over by Muslim radicals

The Birmingham school at the centre of an alleged campaign of Islamisation by Muslim radicals is to be placed in special measures by the Governments education watchdog in a move that could see its head teacher and governors removed.

[..]

In extensive interviews with The Sunday Telegraph, more than a dozen sources disclosed how children at one supposedly non-religious primary school, Oldknow, were led in anti-Christian chanting by one of their teachers at assembly

[..]

Several sources said their schools had repeatedly appealed to Birmingham city council and the education inspectorate Ofsted for help, but were ignored.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716855/Government-intervenes-at-school-taken-over-by-Muslim-radicals.html

Aside from a very small number of crackpot groups akin to the Westborough Baptist Church to some degree but not as far as the WBC as they are not considered part of Islam, there is the Ahmadiyya. This is a relatively new group being less that 150 years old. They would be akin to the Mormon's in that it introduced an additional prophet (Mirza Ahmed). That leaves you with Shi'a and Sunni though at a stretch you could add Sufism as being a sect but good luck with that. Sufism is nothing more that an approach to Islam which is mystical in nature so to call it a sect would mean that a devout believer would be a sect as would be a very devout believer and a very very devout believer etc. etc. You end up at the point which I actually agree with in that every single person who has EVER believed in ANY religion has to be considered a sect.

I don't generally bring up arguments such as this on the TV forum because few people have the religious knowledge to even contemplate it. I do not mean that in a nasty way at all but that it is a very specialist subject.

http://www.real-islam.org/73_8.htm

The above referenced page gives more than 70 sects in Islam.

During my 15 years in Saudi, >10 years in Libya. a couple of years in UAE, a couple more in Indonesia, >3 years in Iran and time in Algeria, Bangladesh and Nigeria I encountered many different interpretations of the Q'ran, plus many different attempts to spell the name. Whenever possible I discussed the religious teaching with my fellow workers - from the most casual worshippers to convinced fundamentalists in both Shia and Sunni streams. The responses were always varied, with serious differences in many of the replies.

The same applies in Christianity, with the main streams of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox churches. Under these main streams are many sects, from the Armenian Church and Coptic Church to Quakers and Seventh Day Adventists. Again, all are convinced that theirs is the better way (and often the 'correct' way). Although there are now few wars among the Christian sects, there have been many historical wars, including the English Civil War. The current disputes among the muslim sects are nothing new - the Christians were experts in slaughtering both those of different religions and those who professed a 'different' version of Christianity. We may have learned our lesson, but it took at least 1500 years to register properly. Islam is not yet that old.

You are wrong Simple1, there are not 'many' interpretations of the Koran, the koran is the word of god and therefore Muslims cannot interpret it, change it or decide what they will and will not obey, Islam does mean submission after all. The fact that there are millions of Muslims who ignore the ravings in the koran neither makes them good Muslims or Islam any less a violent creed. The hadith are not interpretations of the koran. There were many Nazis that ignored the more extreme commands and beliefs of Hitler, did that somehow make Nazism any less evil and harmless?

On the subject of FGM, Islam IS the culture that breeds it (UK) and along with child brides, forced marriages, creeping Sharia and sex grooming gangs, in the UK you will not find offended Muslims being outspoken against these crimes. If they were there would have been many prosecutions for FGM since 1985 as it's estimated 66.000 girls have been mutilated since then- and all those moderates never said a thing!. The whole 'moderate muslim' argument is a lie anyway as they are instructed by the koran to be friendly and moderate when they are in a minority in a community, -Thakiya, an example of the duplicity and lies of the phrophet.

Your POV is not supported by my experience with the Muslim community in Pattaya and varying interpretations is confirmed by actual experience during residence in a number of Islamic countries in post#348.

You are wrong Simple1, there are not 'many' interpretations of the Koran, the koran is the word of god and therefore Muslims cannot interpret it, change it or decide what they will and will not obey, Islam does mean submission after all. The fact that there are millions of Muslims who ignore the ravings in the koran neither makes them good Muslims or Islam any less a violent creed. The hadith are not interpretations of the koran. There were many Nazis that ignored the more extreme commands and beliefs of Hitler, did that somehow make Nazism any less evil and harmless?

On the subject of FGM, Islam IS the culture that breeds it (UK) and along with child brides, forced marriages, creeping Sharia and sex grooming gangs, in the UK you will not find offended Muslims being outspoken against these crimes. If they were there would have been many prosecutions for FGM since 1985 as it's estimated 66.000 girls have been mutilated since then- and all those moderates never said a thing!. The whole 'moderate muslim' argument is a lie anyway as they are instructed by the koran to be friendly and moderate when they are in a minority in a community, -Thakiya, an example of the duplicity and lies of the phrophet.

Your POV is not supported by my experience with the Muslim community in Pattaya and varying interpretations is confirmed by actual experience during residence in a number of Islamic countries in post#348.

But we can't let facts get in the way of a good "hate" opportunity. Group-Focused Enmity (GFE), a sad but very pervasive condition in these parts...

http://www.theewc.org/content/resources/prejudice.and.group.focused.enmity./

Fascinating section that looks at the "Functions of Prejudice"; might be a bit too wordy for some...!

Tens of thousands of people and nobody complained. Well, I say that but perhaps people did complain but nothing was done so someone brought up the issue with C4. The above documentary is the second and came about due to the firestorm caused by the first 'episode'. I remember that well... Threatened litigation from all manner of places against C4. Huge enquiry with the police involved found that C4 had done nothing wrong while producing an accurate report.

On the question of nothing being done about complaints no doubt due to PC multicultural dimwits.

Government intervenes at school 'taken over by Muslim radicals

The Birmingham school at the centre of an alleged campaign of Islamisation by Muslim radicals is to be placed in special measures by the Governments education watchdog in a move that could see its head teacher and governors removed.

[..]

In extensive interviews with The Sunday Telegraph, more than a dozen sources disclosed how children at one supposedly non-religious primary school, Oldknow, were led in anti-Christian chanting by one of their teachers at assembly

[..]

Several sources said their schools had repeatedly appealed to Birmingham city council and the education inspectorate Ofsted for help, but were ignored.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716855/Government-intervenes-at-school-taken-over-by-Muslim-radicals.html

As I stated, what could possibly go wrong? University campuses are also infested by radicals, also aided and abetted by money from overseas. Some may claim the majority of Muslims are assimilated, but with both first generation immigrants and most worryingly the children of second and third generations become more radical than their parents. Of course the PC deniers continue to bury their heads in the sand.

http://www.muslimsdebate.com/search_result.php?news_id=146

A bleak picture of a generation of young British Muslims radicalised by anti-Western views and misplaced multicultural policies is shown in a survey published today.

The study found disturbing evidence of young Muslims adopting more fundamentalist beliefs on key social and political issues than their parents or grandparents.

Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran. The figure among over-55s, in contrast, was only 17 per cent.

As the report goes on to say "The emergence of a strong Muslim identity in Britain is, in part, a result of multi-cultural policies implemented since the 1980s which have emphasised difference at the expense of shared national identity and divided people along ethnic, religious and cultural lines". I would suggest those responsible for this have caused immense and possibly even irreversible damage, yet they hang on to their failed ideology as if their lives depended on it.

Can anyone tell me of any other group of immigrants to the UK where the process of assimilation has actually gone into reverse? In my opinion the reasons for reversal are all clearly written in the cookbook.

And that cookbook is called the Koran!

A sad, sad day.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/86094/flag-raised-for-pakistan-day

And I quote, "Councillor Ashley Dearnely said: “It is my pleasure to be here every year. It is great to see our town united and I think we have been lucky in that we haven’t had any issues within our town, like the riots in Oldham. People really are at the heart of our community.”

Asshat Dearnely forgot about this little gem though.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang

And I quote , "The men were all British Pakistanis (except for one from Afghanistan) and from Muslim backgrounds, and the girls were White."

No 'issues', huh? What a scumbag?!

Surprise, surprise.

And there's more!

I quote, "About a dozen more cases involving Asian Muslims in Northern England are under investigation. A 2012 report by the Deputy children's commissioner said that 33% of child sex abuse by gangs in Britain was committed by Asians, where Asians are 7% of the population."

The last sentence is rather telling, isn't it?

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

And when a local councillor approached local Muslim community leaders for help, she was rebuffed.

"Cryer also attempted to reach the Muslim community and persuade them to take action: "I went to a friend of mine, who was a local counsellor and happened to be a Muslim and therefore able to represent me to the elders, because I thought it was a good move to try to get those elders involved. I hoped that I would be able to persuade the elders to go knocking on doors and say 'this behaviour is un-Islamic and I want it to stop because I'm going l tell the whole community about you and what you’re doing if you don’t'. Now they weren’t prepared to do that."

Seems that their behavior is not that 'un-Islamic' after all.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

And even more damning!

"The Times report of 5 January 2011

A report compiled by The Times and published on 5 January 2011, related to convictions for a particular form of child sex grooming in the North and the Midlands: of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community. Furthermore, The Times article alleged: "with the exception of one town there is scant evidence of work being undertaken in British Pakistani communities to confront the problem" of "pimping gangs" largely consisting of "members of the British Pakistani community".

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

meanwhile back in Ukistan:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587304/Birmingham-state-school-probed-amid-claims-70-000-spent-playground-speakers-call-pupils-Islamic-prayers.html

Seems that their behavior is not that 'un-Islamic' after all.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 L3 182 hp in-line 4 Superbike

How could anyone claim that rape and child sex are unIslamic when the 'perfect' man the prophet condoned and committed both. If he ever got in a tight fix on moral grounds he could always rely on a sudden 'revelation' from Allah sanctioning his sinning. There is no doubt at all that he married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was about 9. This was not a cultural norm at the time. Although Muslims are only permitted 4 wifes the Prophet had at least 11, as well as raping his slaves. it seems to be not widely known that he also dressed up in women's garments, especially Aisha's, yet this is the last prophet of god according to, er, himself!

And the silence from the resident Islam-apologists is deafening.

Be fair defending the indefensible is a tough job, especially when the Koran exposes Islam for what it is.

And the silence from the resident Islam-apologists is deafening.

Be fair defending the indefensible is a tough job, especially when the Koran exposes Islam for what it is.

My humble apologies to you both for actually having a life and not sitting glued to my computer 24/7!

The difference between people like me, those you call Islam-apologists, and you is that we see and know that there are bad people who are, or claim to be, Muslim just as much as there are bad people who are, or claim to be, Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Sikh or (insert religion of your choice).

But we also know that the overwhelming majority of people, whatever their religion, are not bad; do not indulge in rape, child sex, FGM, honour killings etc.

You two, and others, though, seize upon any wrongdoing perpetrated by anyone who is, or may be, a Muslim as proof that all Muslims are the same and that Islam is inherently evil; using websites with the same mind set to prove your point.

Therein lies the difference between the fair minded and the bigoted.

Coding errors removed.