Muslims Schools in the UK have been caught teaching kids that Jews and Christians are pigs, but to be fair that is more or less what the koran tells them. Koran says Muslims are the best of people while the Jews and Christians are the worst of people who will go to hell fire, if you call that education then I don't. I can give you the suras if you want.

One, private Muslim school.

I'll use The Mail so you can't say I'm quoting from a liberal, PC, apologist source.

It's wrong to teach this, of course, but so is your overblown hyperbole.

Here is an article concerning the Koranic justification for the murder of Lee Rigby as written down by the man formerly known as Michael Adebolajo, who should be referred to as Mujahid Abu Hamza. Funnily enough nobody seemed to have a problem referring to Muhammad Ali by his chosen name, as oppose to Cassius Clay.

http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/165-jon-mc/1521-the-quranic-basis-for-lee-rigbys-murder-according-to-his-jihadi-killers.html

The reoccurring themes of jihaddist psychology are summarized as follows;

(1)Muslims should wage (continuous) war against non-Muslims as Allah commands, (2) that the love of this world should not hold them back from doing so, (3) that they must be prepared to die for Allah, (4) that it is an un-Islamic act not to fight and kill for Allah and (5) that the good Muslim should keep himself apart from both “hypocrites” and non-Muslims and only associate with other “true-believer Muslims”.

This is the original authentic recipe for jihad, one can disregard it by virtue of pick and mix faith, one can also try the argument that it's a minority view, but the source is there in black and white for those so minded to follow it.

Meanwhile:-

School hailed by minister for GCSE results

Pupils at Preston Muslim Girls High School received excellent GCSE results last summer, and have now been congratulated by David Laws MP, the Minister of State for Schools.

Headteacher Mufti Javid said he was delighted with the achievement.

He said: We were very pleased with our GCSE results in the summer which had gone up by 19 per cent from the previous year, but we didnt expect this.

We had no idea that we were in the top 100 schools in the country.

Islamic school among UKs top 100

This achievement (by Preston Muslim Girl's High School)is not the first for Islamic schools in UK.

In February 2013, Tauheedul Islam Girls High School was rated as the highest-achieving learning institutes in Britain.

In March, the school was shortlisted for Secondary School of the Year by the Times Educational Supplement annual awards.

In May, the school was rated as outstanding following an Ofsted inspection, the first and only secondary school in the Borough to receive such an award.

In their report, inspectors praised highly effective teaching, a culture of high expectations and exceptionally polite and considerate students.

In London, the Tayyibah Girls School topped 22 schools in Hackney with a whopping 100 percent of all students achieving 5 + GCSEs at grades A*-C (including English and Maths) a 17 percent improvement on its 2011 results.

Faith Schools

These (Church of England schools) form 68% of the approximately 7,000 faith schools in England, as of 2011. The Roman Catholic church maintains 30% of schools. In addition, there are 42 Jewish, 12 Muslim, 3 Sikh and 1 Hindu faith schools. Faith schools follow the same National Curriculum as state schools, with the exception of religious studies, where they are free to limit this to their own beliefs.

Interestingly, from the above

In Scottish Catholic schools, employment of non-Catholics can be restricted by the Church; often, one of the requirements for Catholic applicants is to possess a certificate that has been signed by their parish priest......

Steely Dan; just because a murderer claims his murder to be justified by his religion, and certainly because that 'justification' is published on a hate website, does not mean that it is believed by the majority of Muslims.

I could, and maybe when I have the time will, find equal justification for murder in both the Bible and the Torah.

Steely Dan; just because a murderer claims his murder to be justified by his religion, and certainly because that 'justification' is published on a hate website, does not mean that it is believed by the majority of Muslims.

I could, and maybe when I have the time will, find equal justification for murder in both the Bible and the Torah.

You are welcome to find justifications for murder in other religious texts, even the Jains have a book on fighting ships, or so I believe.

When doing so please remember to show who used the relevant text as a justification for committing actual acts of violence, with actual victims.

Have I got this right 7x7 thinks he is fair minded for ignoring the bad aspects of Islam, which are many, but any who point them out are 'bigots'?

I could, and maybe when I have the time will, find equal justification for murder in both the Bible and the Torah.

Fortunately, that would be relatively easy.

I've stayed well away from the FGM argument because while it may be widespread in Islamic countries, it is not a precept of Islam and is also well known to predate it. Its origins are however totally religious belief based.

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

Would be more accurate to say anti-Islam.

[edit]

Not happy with that.

It would not be inaccurate to say anti-Muslim but it would be accurate to say anti-Islam.

Steely Dan; just because a murderer claims his murder to be justified by his religion, and certainly because that 'justification' is published on a hate website, does not mean that it is believed by the majority of Muslims.

I could, and maybe when I have the time will, find equal justification for murder in both the Bible and the Torah.

What matters is what the Koran says tha'ts all, the fact that some, or many ignore commands in the Koran to kill does not mean they do not exist. There were many moderate nazi's did that make mien kampf any less evil? The old Bible and Torah nonsense won't wash I afraid.

I lived and worked in the mIddle East over 30 years, having many Arab friends and acquaintances. You won't find my opinion anywhere on the internet so there will be no links. Save your breath.

My impression from all this experience, and having one employee assassinated by Al-Qaeda and several friends killed in Riyadh by bombings, is that the Islamic religion is basically filled with good people that merely want to live their lives in peace and raise their children.

There are a couple of problems with this, however.

One is that the majority of Muslims are the "very silent" majority. One will find a few here and there that claim their shock and horror at what Islamic radicals do and then do nothing to stop it. As long as it is Muslim against Westerner, there is a glaring absence of outrage at these terrorist incidents. If the vast majority of them are peace loving, they need to be a lot more vocal in repudiating the violence that is being done in the name of their religion.

The other problem is, sorry 7X7, the religion calls for considerably more violence against non-believers in today's society than it should. I know the old argument that Christianity was also violent at a point in time. The Spanish Inquisition is one such instance, but I would ask if there are any forum members, that are still actively posting, who were around during that time frame? If not, it has no bearing on the current conversation.

I will be the first to admit that not all Muslims are terrorists.

I would also like to point out that in modern times, most terrorists are Muslims.

As is the case with the two killers of Lee Rigby.

One is that the majority of Muslims are the "very silent" majority. One will find a few here and there that claim their shock and horror at what Islamic radicals do and then do nothing to stop it. As long as it is Muslim against Westerner, there is a glaring absence of outrage at these terrorist incidents. If the vast majority of them are peace loving, they need to be a lot more vocal in repudiating the violence that is being done in the name of their religion.

I object to your usage of 'in the name of their religion' because it is a direct consequence of it.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg

Hmmm, the silent majority. I'm sure there are many decent good people who are Muslim, they can't help being saddled with the baggage of a religion, which contains within it the ideology of a totalitarian cult.

Chuckd, one could argue that silence is complicity, or at the least acquiescence, but I suspect fear is a major explanation for this. Koranic texts are full of calls for violence not only against infidels, but also against Muslims that don't act in the desired manner. I'm not referring here to prohibitions on say alcohol, but failure to support jihad. The Nazi party had a 33% approval rate in 1933, they gained power leaving many Germans no doubt in an impossible position, where silence was the easiest option. As a matter of fact an Al-Jazeera poll found Osama Bin Laden had a 49% approval rating among Muslims, those who oppose the Islamists have to do so in hiding. A U.S girl who organized a 'draw Mohammad' day had to have her identity change and go into hiding. Salman Rushdie remarked recently that in today's environment the Satanic verses would never have been published. The silent majority stays silent while the radicals attempt to infiltrate education and the executive branches of government in order to further their agenda. Runaway immigration has contributed to the pool of people to radicalise, as has activists within the education system targeted the children of second and third generations, as well as converts.

It is vital we come to grips with the true nature of Islam (not Muslims), by doing so would actually give those who are sane and moderate a better chance of living peacefully and carrying on with their own lives and letting everyone else do likewise.

I see that we are back to the 'why don't these moderate Muslims speak out against the radicals' argument.

Every time this is brought up, myself or another posts links and quotes to moderate Muslims speaking out; on websites and in mainstream media; even the favourite outlet of the haters; the Daily Mail.

Yet the haters ignore them.

Have I got this right 7x7 thinks he is fair minded for ignoring the bad aspects of Islam, which are many, but any who point them out are 'bigots'?

You have not got it right.

Read the post again, and if you still have comprehension difficulties, find someone to explain it to you.

Hey 7x7 is back being fair minded as he's not calling us bigots today! I do not hate Muslims but I do hate the vileness in the koran and hadith, they don't speak out about that do they.

I see that we are back to the 'why don't these moderate Muslims speak out against the radicals' argument.

Every time this is brought up, myself or another posts links and quotes to moderate Muslims speaking out; on websites and in mainstream media; even the favourite outlet of the haters; the Daily Mail.

Yet the haters ignore them.

As my post referred to my experiences in the Middle East over a period covering in excess of 30 years, please post your personal experiences from living and working in the Middle East.

My 30 plus years began in 1974 and stretched through 2008 so I did go through most of the terrorist incidents and many of them were up-close and personal. None of my experiences were impacted by reading somebody else's opinion on the internet.

The boroughs of London are not my area of expertise, however. I bow to your vast experience in all things related to the UK

I welcome your experiences and opinions...if you actually lived and worked in the M/E for any period of time.

Hey 7x7 is back being fair minded as he's not calling us bigots today! I do not hate Muslims but I do hate the vileness in the koran and hadith, they don't speak out about that do they.

Two quick examples of ‘they” talking against extremist interpretations, there are many, many more if you can be bothered to carry out some searches…

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails/tabid/96/smid/414/ArticleID/204681/reftab/36/t/Hatred-against-non-Muslims-unwarranted/Default.aspx

http://www.mediamonitors.net/elmasry31.html

The first one does not challenge one single hate sura or calls for violence against the unbeliever, it challenges nothing but merely gives a few odd vague quotes to try and portray the evil cult as other than it really is. Anyone who thinks Islam is a religion of peace is clearly deluded. You only have to ask if it is why has it been responsible for over 200 millions deaths since it was founded, why was it speread by the sword and threats of death to those not converting, and why of course it is the fount of so much violence and misery today.

From the religionofpeace site

TheReligionofPeace.com Home Page

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The second link is so full of lies and myths it would take all night, but he does speak about the persecution of the Muslims in Mecca. This only happened because Mohamad was so intolerant of pagan religions and attacked them and their idols. When he died there were no pagans left in Mecca- all killed converted or exiled by guess who. Yet Muslims whine on about them being 'oppressed', sounds kind of familiar, today they are world class complainers and 'victims' all over the world and use it to justify Jihad and to claim special status and treatment. Muslims demand the utmost of respect and tolerance, yet give nothing in return. No? try building a Church in Saudi, where did all that tolerance go to?

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

I don't know if I am among the chosen here - in that I am very concerned that Islamic practices are not imposed upon British culture, to the detriment of said British culture.

I would not go down the pub with a practising Muslim - he would avoid alcohol, despite it's arabic derivation, as being unclean.

However I have worked for many years in Muslim-ruled countries and enjoyed my life there. I have many muslim friends, but they mostly live in their home countries and I correspond through e-mails.

I would not wish to change their lives or laws without their consent, but neither would I expect any guest in our Western countries to try to change our laws without our consent, nor would I expect them, as guests, to break our laws. More especially, I would not expect them, as guests, to break our laws and then cite their back-home customs as being justification for breaking our laws.

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

I don't know if I am among the chosen here - in that I am very concerned that Islamic practices are not imposed upon British culture, to the detriment of said British culture.

I would not go down the pub with a practising Muslim - he would avoid alcohol, despite it's arabic derivation, as being unclean.

I used to go down the pub with a practising Muslim. He drank coke but had no problem with the rest of us drinking beer. He had no problem with us eating bacon sandwiches for breakfast either. There seems to be an assumption that in order to be a Muslim you have to adhere completely to every little proscription whereas no-one expects Christians to obey to the last letter every part of the Bible.

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

I don't know if I am among the chosen here - in that I am very concerned that Islamic practices are not imposed upon British culture, to the detriment of said British culture.

Let me make it clear that I consider neither you or Chuckd to be 'anti-Muslim'. On the contrary I greatly respect the contributions of both of you because you're both talking from your own personal experience rather than regurgitating the propaganda of some agenda-driven website.

well here is a bit of personal experience, not taken from one of those terrible sites. At the place I worked in the UK the day after 9/11 many Muslims were in a very good mood happy about the deaths of nearly 4.000 innocent people. Of course they were not extremists just normal Muslims laughing and joking about murder, lovely people, brainwashed by an evil cult.

Hey 7x7 is back being fair minded as he's not calling us bigots today! I do not hate Muslims but I do hate the vileness in the koran and hadith, they don't speak out about that do they.

Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against violence and hate. See the many earlier links.

Shame you can't be bothered to research the Bible; you'll find some very horrific stuff in there. In a different topic I posted a verse from Leviticus (Old Testament) and another from Romans (New Testament) about how true believers (i.e. Jews and Christians for Leviticus, Christians for Romans) should deal with the sin of homosexuality and those who practice it.

How many priests, rabbis, vicars, pastors, whatever have spoken out about those and the many similar verses.

As for people using the bible to justify their crimes;

How criminals use religion to justify their crimes

As the researchers put it, “…the hardcore offenders we interviewed are able to exploit the absolvitory tenets of religious doctrine, neutralizing their fear of death to not only allow but encourage offending.” That is, the criminals relied on the fact that their religion (overwhelmingly Christianity) uplifts forgiveness and absolution, and so the criminals reasoned they would be forgiven too.

Different report of the same research: How Criminals Use Religion to Justify Their Crimes

Cool, a 25-year-old male drug dealer says,

"The way it work is this. You go out and do some bad and then you ask for forgiveness and Jesus have to give it to you, and you know wipe the slate clean. So, I always do a quick little prayer right before and then I'm cool with Jesus. Also another thing is this; if you doing some wrong to another bad person, like if I go rob a dope dealer or a molester or something, then it don't count against me because it's like I'm giving punishment to them for Jesus. That's God's will. Oh you molested some kids? Well now I'm [God] sending Cool over your house to get your [expletive deleted]."

How about Anders Behring Breivik; remember him?

Now, I do not in anyway consider that these people are representative of Christians, Christian teachings or Christian leaders.

To do so would be stupid; like saying that the murders of Lee Rigby are representative of British Muslims.

well here is a bit of personal experience, not taken from one of those terrible sites. At the place I worked in the UK the day after 9/11 many Muslims were in a very good mood happy about the deaths of nearly 4.000 innocent people. Of course they were not extremists just normal Muslims laughing and joking about murder, lovely people, brainwashed by an evil cult.

Really?

Totally different to the reaction of Muslims I worked with at the time; Muslims I knew at the time, my Muslim neighbours at the time.

They were as shocked and dismayed as I.

Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against violence and hate. See the many earlier links.

The fine art of sophistry.

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.

2. a false argument; sophism.

An estimated 300,000 people take to the streets burning effigies, invading embassies and generally rioting due to a few cartoons against a small number people¹ who come out and complain when a young lady has acid thrown on her face for talking to the wrong 'kind' of person. The Iranian head of state publicly put a US$1,000,000 bounty on the head of an author who wrote a book about the Qur'an but he does not represent the 'people'? Your entire argument is hard to define as anything other than solipsistic in nature by way of sophistry.

[1] Presumably these small number of people represent the majority which goes against what you have said previously regarding 'the few'.

How many spoke out against the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, how many millions against 9/11, where were all the voices raised against 7/7 and against all the violence and deaths caused by a mere cartoon? Of course liars like the Council of British Muslims, all men and non elected, come out with weasel words that they do not mean just for the press, meaningless.

How many spoke out against the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, how many millions against 9/11, where were all the voices raised against 7/7 and against all the violence and deaths caused by a mere cartoon? Of course liars like the Council of British Muslims, all men and non elected, come out with weasel words that they do not mean just for the press, meaningless.

You have to be fair, there were some voices heard though I doubt the number would reach 100. I agree with what you say about the MCB though.

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), established in 1997, is a self-appointed umbrella body for 500 mosques, schools and associations in Britain.[1] It includes national, regional, local, and specialist Muslim organisations and institutions from different ethnic and sectarian backgrounds within British Islamic society.[2] Its purpose is to increase education about Islam, and to "work for the eradication of disadvantages and forms of discrimination faced by Muslims".[3] It has been called the "best known and most powerful" of the many organizations that have been founded in the 1990 and 2000s to represent Britain's Muslims.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Council_of_Britain

Note highlighted 'self appointed'. Apparently, they are representative of the 'Muslim voice' which throws the entire argument out of the window. If some fella who blows himself up on a bus doesn't represent the thoughts and wishes then nor does a self appointed body or a couple of people. What does then represent the 'Muslim voice'? We know there IS a voice which can be raised, with the estimated 300,000 who took to the streets after the cartoons. It cannot be said there is always a low turnout can it?

[Edit]Oops, forgot to insert link.

Can I ask if any of the 'anti-Muslims' (for want of a better phrase) have ever had much to do with Muslims? Worked with them? Worked for them? Gone down the pub with them? Genuine question.

Anyone?