MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[harrry]

MH17 CRASH

Difficult to identify aircraft in hostile airspace

Akil Yunus

The Star

It is difficult for militant groups to determine if an aircraft flying over hostile airspace is of a civilian or military nature.

Ahmad Salman Abdul Rahim, one of the Malaysian jihadists fighting in Syria, said civilians were at great risk as militant groups did not possess the radar equipment and technology to ascertain if an air target was ’friend or foe’.

At 33,000 feet? If you are shooting down aircraft at that height it is almost guaranteed to be commercial traffic.

Mind you jihadists are by nature complete idiots.

I've flown in several military aircraft at 33,000 feet - hey, I've even flown chartered commercial jets full of fellow uniformed soldiers at - get this - 33,000 feet. A full regimental movement.

Anyway - the best that can possibly be made of this would be if someone put their hands up and said - "our mistake."

I sincerely hope it was a genuine mistake.

The thought of anyone targeting a civilian jet is beyond appalling.

If you get a chance could you look at the weather notams that were round this morning and let us know if they were the reason the flight took a much further north course than it had in the past, It seems the southern course is well away from the conflict area. Might help us to make a little more sense of things.

[skippybangkok]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I don't see anyone blaming MH for this tragedy, but it is incredibly bad luck considering what they've gone through recently.

My guess is the Russians are already hard at work sanitising the crime scene, and possibly doing what they can to implicate the Ukrainians.

No doubt American satellites are recording it all.

Well to be fair, if we are talking about the thread, skippybangkok is trying to blame MH and I just don't understand it.

Can everyone be really clear on one point, this was NOTHING to do with MH or negligence on their part. I just do not know how the MH staff are holding themselves together at the moment. Two International incidents both under extremely suspicious circumstances in a matter of months of each other. I truly hope the board can come up with a way of motivating the staff to continue.

This is a complete tragedy as all aircraft accidents are, but again let's make it clear, this was not an accident. I have no idea yet of the exact circumstances but the aircraft was in airspace it was permitted to be in and many other aircraft had already been in. The aircraft would have been squawking the correct codes with it's transponder to display it was a civilian airliner and exactly who it was. After MH 370, i really do not want to hear that the aircrafts transponder was mysteriously switched off. It will be very interesting to hear further information from the 'foreign air traffic controllers' who were removed from their desks just before the incident. If I were them I would be out of Ukraine already!

Putin is a gangster, but I am sure of one thing, he is not stupid. I really hope that the Russians will reveal all the data from the FDR. Prior to the explosion the FDR could tell us if any military aircraft intercepted/escorted it, it would also tell us if any critical systems were tampered with on the minutes leading up to the explosion. Of all the airlines in the world I find it staggering that this incident involved MH. I tend to agree with the Oz PM, this is not an accident it is a crime and I pray for all the victims, their families and the MH staff that the truth comes out very quickly.

its pretty clear from what has been reported this flight was not anywhere near it's previous 10 conterparts of the same call sign were - it was 160 kms off course

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-flight-3877002

Thanks Bkkjames..... the headline of the article you posted is exactly my question.

1. Its clear the location it was shot down is only about 50 miles south of the Great Circle route from AMS to KUL ( = mathematically shortest route possible ). very clearly lowest fuel consumption route.

2. Its clear Ukraine ATC said "its OK".....but Ukraine military was not in control of the area which they said "OK". They were OK-ing airspace above territory they did not control military.

3. Its clear most airlines but a few avoided that airspace (i.e QANTAS for many months did not fly over Ukraine )

Question is, who is to blame? The grunt who pulled the trigger , or the person who put the aircraft over that airspace to start off with ? Maybe both, but MAS is not completely innocent.

Why tempt fait ?

RIP to Malaysian Airlines passengers and condolences to their families.

[Bigfarang1948]

A ""hostile plane" flying over Ukrainian or Russian airspace at 10,000 meters certainly does not sound like one on a bombing run or getting ready to launch air to ground missiles does it? Some enlisted grunt saw the blip on his radar screen and his captain told him to fire more than likely. RIP innocent victims of an absolutely preventable tragedy.

a terrible news at the middle of the night. what the hell the world is doing ?

RIP for those on board, another 295 innocent life.

[In Search of Space]

Who to blame all depends upon whether the BUK missile system was stolen from the Ukrainain Army or "supplied" by the Russian Army, also Malaysian Airlines needs to explain why it was flying over a war zone when almost every other flight in the region was going around Ukraine. If supplied by the Russian Army then I think Russia should pay heavily for this action.

RIP to all the passengers and crew

[khaosai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I don't see anyone blaming MH for this tragedy, but it is incredibly bad luck considering what they've gone through recently.

My guess is the Russians are already hard at work sanitising the crime scene, and possibly doing what they can to implicate the Ukrainians.

No doubt American satellites are recording it all.

Well to be fair, if we are talking about the thread, skippybangkok is trying to blame MH and I just don't understand it.

Can everyone be really clear on one point, this was NOTHING to do with MH or negligence on their part. I just do not know how the MH staff are holding themselves together at the moment. Two International incidents both under extremely suspicious circumstances in a matter of months of each other. I truly hope the board can come up with a way of motivating the staff to continue.

This is a complete tragedy as all aircraft accidents are, but again let's make it clear, this was not an accident. I have no idea yet of the exact circumstances but the aircraft was in airspace it was permitted to be in and many other aircraft had already been in. The aircraft would have been squawking the correct codes with it's transponder to display it was a civilian airliner and exactly who it was. After MH 370, i really do not want to hear that the aircrafts transponder was mysteriously switched off. It will be very interesting to hear further information from the 'foreign air traffic controllers' who were removed from their desks just before the incident. If I were them I would be out of Ukraine already!

Putin is a gangster, but I am sure of one thing, he is not stupid. I really hope that the Russians will reveal all the data from the FDR. Prior to the explosion the FDR could tell us if any military aircraft intercepted/escorted it, it would also tell us if any critical systems were tampered with on the minutes leading up to the explosion. Of all the airlines in the world I find it staggering that this incident involved MH. I tend to agree with the Oz PM, this is not an accident it is a crime and I pray for all the victims, their families and the MH staff that the truth comes out very quickly.

its pretty clear from what has been reported this flight was not anywhere near it's previous 10 conterparts of the same call sign were - it was 160 kms off course

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-flight-3877002

Thanks Bkkjames..... the headline of the article you posted is exactly my question.

1. Its clear the location it was shot down is only about 50 miles south of the Great Circle route from AMS to KUL ( = mathematically shortest route possible ). very clearly lowest fuel consumption route.

2. Its clear Ukraine ATC said "its OK".....but Ukraine military was not in control of the area which they said "OK". They were OK-ing airspace above territory they did not control military.

3. Its clear most airlines but a few avoided that airspace (i.e QANTAS for many months did not fly over Ukraine )

Question is, who is to blame? The grunt who pulled the trigger , or the person who put the aircraft over that airspace to start off with ? Maybe both, but MAS is not completely innocent.

Why tempt fait ?

RIP to Malaysian Airlines passengers and condolences to their families.

Hi,

You make reference to Qantas in your message stating they did not fly over Ukraine. They only fly to London so the route used by them on most occasions will avoid the Ukrainian mainland anyway. On occasion you may pass over Simferopol but that portion of the airspace has been closed for quite a while now so can't be used.

The portion of airspace that the Malaysian aircraft flew through was open so I feel the airline cannot be blamed for this tragedy.

[ultipost]

This link shows that most aircraft after the crash now avoid the area: http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/07/ukraine.jpg Save OR Safe... I can't believe that airlines take such risks in a warzone with badly trained rebels but with fancy equipment they do not understand too well.

[skippybangkok]

Hi,

You make reference to Qantas in your message stating they did not fly over Ukraine. They only fly to London so the route used by them on most occasions will avoid the Ukrainian mainland anyway. On occasion you may pass over Simferopol but that portion of the airspace has been closed for quite a while now so can't be used.

The portion of airspace that the Malaysian aircraft flew through was open so I feel the airline cannot be blamed for this tragedy.

Good Point - agree if the case. I know your a fly guy, so how comfy would you have felt flying over Ukraine with all this helicopter / cargo jets etc being shot down, but your flight planning feels its "ok".

I think i would have preferred the long road. A bit like someone telling you its safe to walk in someones garden who has a vicious pit bull.... it really has to be worth your while to take that risk

[bkkjames]

This link shows that most aircraft after the crash now avoid the area: http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/07/ukraine.jpg Save OR Safe... I can't believe that airlines take such risks in a warzone with badly trained rebels but with fancy equipment they do not understand too well.

I think you will find that this particular plane was off course by quite a margin...for what reason who knows...

[craigt3365]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZJnD1wgofYM

This was just shown on BBC. They say it is unverified. But still, it was aired.

[Fullstop]

Ukraine's east has seen heavy fighting between the country's military and separatists in recent days.

I know it's common sense...but...

"Attention all Airlines. DO NOT fly over war zones"

[bkkjames]

The Million Dollar Quesiton is why this plane was where it was....another mystery involving another MAS flight... sadly coincidental.

[craigt3365]

This link shows that most aircraft after the crash now avoid the area: http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/07/ukraine.jpg Save OR Safe... I can't believe that airlines take such risks in a warzone with badly trained rebels but with fancy equipment they do not understand too well.

I think you will find that this particular plane was off course by quite a margin...for what reason who knows...

It had altered course to avoid a weather system.

[Jingthing]

This one is hardly a mystery!

It is known for sure it was shot down.

What is not known for sure yet is who exactly shot it down.

Initial strong evidence is showing it was the Russian allied rebels in Ukraine.

Not 100 percent yet but keep tuned, it will probably be possible to prove this within a reasonable doubt even without the black box.

[Lammbock]

Rumoured shot down video of MH17

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aad_1405654499

[mca]

An Australian woman whose brother and sister-in-law died when Malaysia Airlines flight MH 370 vanished in March has lost her stepdaughter and stepdaughter’s husband, who were aboard the second Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in Ukraine.

Kaylene Mann, of Brisbane, was too distraught to speak publicly on Friday and requested privacy to deal with her latest loss. Mrs Mann was the sister of Rod Burrows, who died along with his wife Mary on Flight MH370, which disappeared over the southern Indian Ocean on March 8

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/australia-newzealand/article4151214.ece

.

[metisdead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZJnD1wgofYM

This was just shown on BBC. They say it is unverified. But still, it was aired.

And it has been shown on CNN as well.

[metisdead]

A nonsensical conspiracy theory post has been removed as well as a reply.

[zydeco]

as former missle oficer i know "BUK" system quite well. It seemes to me that Ukranian militaries tested "BUK" and forgot (or did not know) to turn off missle. there is the jack SH1 which must be connected only when you want to kill a plane. The same situation happened earlyer when unquilifited Ukranians shot Russian TU-154M in 2001.

you know squat .We KNOW the east ukraine pro Russian seperatists have BUK , so dont spread your bull Mr Fake engineer

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It does not prove Ukraine Doesn't have this system, does it?

Actually the Ukraine military equipment is almost 100% Russian..... Obviously.

Strange how within an hour the Ukrainians were saying it was a BUK.... how do they know what it was????

One of the many strange behaviours of the Ukrainians since this plane was hit.

Ukraine has everything to gain from this and Russia has nothing to gain at all.

It was Ukraine that did this, and it was totally deliberate and planned.

I am convinced of it.

I have applauded Putin's defense of his fellow Russians' interests where necessary, while condemning US involvement in the Ukrainian revolution. But this idea of yours is crackpot stuff.

[tartempion]

Clearly these idiots of rebels don't have flightradar24 on their PC to check what flights are flying above their heads.

I hope they get executed.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[bkkjames]

This link shows that most aircraft after the crash now avoid the area: http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/07/ukraine.jpg Save OR Safe... I can't believe that airlines take such risks in a warzone with badly trained rebels but with fancy equipment they do not understand too well.

I think you will find that this particular plane was off course by quite a margin...for what reason who knows...

It had altered course to avoid a weather system.

Others in front and behind did too?

Sent from my LG-P970 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[khaosai]

Hi,

You make reference to Qantas in your message stating they did not fly over Ukraine. They only fly to London so the route used by them on most occasions will avoid the Ukrainian mainland anyway. On occasion you may pass over Simferopol but that portion of the airspace has been closed for quite a while now so can't be used.

The portion of airspace that the Malaysian aircraft flew through was open so I feel the airline cannot be blamed for this tragedy.

Good Point - agree if the case. I know your a fly guy, so how comfy would you have felt flying over Ukraine with all this helicopter / cargo jets etc being shot down, but your flight planning feels its "ok".

I think i would have preferred the long road. A bit like someone telling you its safe to walk in someones garden who has a vicious pit bull.... it really has to be worth your while to take that risk

Hi,

I would expect most airlines faced with airspace restrictions would act accordingly. Some will choose to avoid the country completely, whilst others will choose to avoid the smaller specific area. That's the case here and unfortunately the threat has been underestimated. Many airlines have been flying through this open portion of Ukranian airspace and have therefore dodged a bullet.

Personally, I would not put myself at risk. If I thought there was a specific threat that would affect the flight then I will wait for an appropriate, much safer option. Based on the information I have seen prior to this tragic situation has been that the Simferopol portion of Ukranian airspace was closed. The other four regions remained open.

[Thunder26]

Rumoured shot down video of MH17

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aad_1405654499

It is the footage of another plane An-30 that was shot down on 6th June 2014.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Thunder26

[WhamBam]

I do feel for those people who have relatives on this flight. A total waste of life. I do not want to get into the who and why of it all.

One thing that does spring to mind is the problems Malaysian airlines are very liable to have from people especially in Asia who may well believe this airline now has bad Joo Joo (bad vibes) or whatever you want to call it. And through no fault of their own.

How many people are now going to risk tempting fate by flying with this airline after this and the recent missing airline?

[3NUMBAS]

The possibility that the civilian jetliner downed over war-torn eastern Ukraine with nearly 300 people onboard was hit by a missile could have profound consequences for the world's airlines.

Airlines might have to be more vigilant about avoiding trouble spots, making flights longer and causing them to burn more costly fuel, an extra expense that is often passed onto passengers through higher fares. They may even be forced to reconsider many international routes.

In the hours after Thursday's disaster involving a Malaysia Airlines jet, carriers around the globe began rerouting flights to avoid Ukraine. Some had been circumventing the country for weeks. Experts questioned the airline's decision to fly near the fighting, even as Malaysia's prime minister said that the plane's route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was declared safe by international aviation authorities.

"I find it pretty remarkable that a civil airline company — if this aircraft was on the flight plan — that they are flight-planning over an area like that," said Robert Francis, a former vice chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-airlines-didnt-avoid-risky-070223407.html

[Somtamnication]

A sad day for humanity. Shameful day.

[Artisi]

Interesting interview if you haven't already viewed it.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/business/aviation/malaysia-airlines-mh17-australian-expert-questions-flights-ukraine-route-20140718-zuilw.html

[tigermonkey]

Hi,

You make reference to Qantas in your message stating they did not fly over Ukraine. They only fly to London so the route used by them on most occasions will avoid the Ukrainian mainland anyway. On occasion you may pass over Simferopol but that portion of the airspace has been closed for quite a while now so can't be used.

The portion of airspace that the Malaysian aircraft flew through was open so I feel the airline cannot be blamed for this tragedy.

Good Point - agree if the case. I know your a fly guy, so how comfy would you have felt flying over Ukraine with all this helicopter / cargo jets etc being shot down, but your flight planning feels its "ok".

I think i would have preferred the long road. A bit like someone telling you its safe to walk in someones garden who has a vicious pit bull.... it really has to be worth your while to take that risk

Hi,

I would expect most airlines faced with airspace restrictions would act accordingly. Some will choose to avoid the country completely, whilst others will choose to avoid the smaller specific area. That's the case here and unfortunately the threat has been underestimated. Many airlines have been flying through this open portion of Ukranian airspace and have therefore dodged a bullet.

Personally, I would not put myself at risk. If I thought there was a specific threat that would affect the flight then I will wait for an appropriate, much safer option. Based on the information I have seen prior to this tragic situation has been that the Simferopol portion of Ukranian airspace was closed. The other four regions remained open.

Personally I can't agree with the risks ignored by MAS flight planning in this case. The risk was high with only a cash reward. Furthermore, it appears that the next segment on MH017s flight plan (A87 TAMAK - SARNA )had been closed by Russia a full 12 hours before the crash, as shown in this NOTAM:

NOTAM:

(V6158/14 NOTAMN

Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04008E088

A) URRV

1407170000 C) 1408312359EST

E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE

STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING

FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN

FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,

ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:

/--/

A87 TAMAK - SARNA,

/--/

SFC TO FL530.)

This was completely missed by everyone at MAS, and was somehow not picked up by Russia flow management system. The original flight plan should have been rejected.

Edited July 18, 2014 by tigermonkey

[dutchisaan]

Just posted by dutch media.

Nationality of passangers of flight MH17.

189 people from The Netherlands.

44 people from Malasia.

27 people from Australia.

12 people from Indonesia.

9 people from the UK.

4 people from Belgium.

4 people from Germany.

3 people from the fillipines.

1 person from Canada.

1 person from New Zealand.

From 4 people it is not know at this time what nationality they have.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[laobali]

this could Finnish MH

You mean they could be taken over by Finnair?

[harrry]

Hi,

You make reference to Qantas in your message stating they did not fly over Ukraine. They only fly to London so the route used by them on most occasions will avoid the Ukrainian mainland anyway. On occasion you may pass over Simferopol but that portion of the airspace has been closed for quite a while now so can't be used.

The portion of airspace that the Malaysian aircraft flew through was open so I feel the airline cannot be blamed for this tragedy.

Good Point - agree if the case. I know your a fly guy, so how comfy would you have felt flying over Ukraine with all this helicopter / cargo jets etc being shot down, but your flight planning feels its "ok".

I think i would have preferred the long road. A bit like someone telling you its safe to walk in someones garden who has a vicious pit bull.... it really has to be worth your while to take that risk

Hi,

I would expect most airlines faced with airspace restrictions would act accordingly. Some will choose to avoid the country completely, whilst others will choose to avoid the smaller specific area. That's the case here and unfortunately the threat has been underestimated. Many airlines have been flying through this open portion of Ukranian airspace and have therefore dodged a bullet.

Personally, I would not put myself at risk. If I thought there was a specific threat that would affect the flight then I will wait for an appropriate, much safer option. Based on the information I have seen prior to this tragic situation has been that the Simferopol portion of Ukranian airspace was closed. The other four regions remained open.

Personally I can't agree with the risks ignored by MAS flight planning in this case. The risk was high with only a cash reward. Furthermore, it appears that the next segment on MH017s flight plan (A87 TAMAK - SARNA )had been closed by Russia a full 12 hours before the crash, as shown in this NOTAM:

NOTAM:

(V6158/14 NOTAMN

Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04008E088

A) URRV

1407170000 C) 1408312359EST

E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE

STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING

FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN

FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,

ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:

/--/

A87 TAMAK - SARNA,

/--/

SFC TO FL530.)

This was completely missed by everyone at MAS, and was somehow not picked up by Russia flow management system. The original flight plan should have been rejected.

Not too sure of this one. I have googled various sections of this notams an they all lead to a couple of news stories, an unatributed forum paste and a questionable pastebin.

If someone cannot give me an authoritve source for this notam ....an I do not mean a forum post I would consider it forged.

here is the closest I can find...and you it see it covers surface to fl320 not fl330 stated above.

V6158/14 - DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:

A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,

B145 KANON - ASMIL,

G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),

A87 TAMAK - SARNA,

A102 PENEG - NALEM,

A225 GUKOL - ODETA,

A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),

B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),

B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),

G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),

G534 MIMRA - TOROS,

G904 FASAD - SUTAG,

R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.

SFC - FL320.

DEP FM/ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO/FM MOSCOW FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG

ATS RTE G128 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) AND

R11 MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) - BUTRI ON ASSIGNED FL.

DEP FM ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG

ATS RTE A102 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - NALEM ON FL340 AND ABOVE.

ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD FM DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG

ATS RTE A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB) THEN DCT KONSTANTINOVSK NDB

(KA) ON FL330 AND ABOVE. SFC - FL530, 17 JUL 00:00 2014 UNTIL 31 AUG 23:59 2014

ESTIMATED. CREATED: 16 JUL 17:08 2014

Edited July 18, 2014 by harrry